What difference does it make how long they can hold it? (especially when higher descending speeds can be sustained fairly easily without pedalling at all).
yeah.
none.
It’s not really the bike that’s the problem (derestricted or not) It’s the etiquate/common sense/manners of the rider(s) you encountered.
Very true, however what sort of person is attracted to a derestricted eBike. It is like saying it is not the car that is the problems yet certain cars will most likely be driven by idiots that other cars.
Not a single ebike within our group. We have standards....
Makes me laugh when the GF and her mate are grinding up hill in first gear and they shout "cheater!" to anyone who passes them on b ebike.
As an and elderly and hard of hearing ebiker I am really impressed and complimented by the shouts I get likening me to that athletic marvel of the animal kingdom - the cheetah
Some interesting points.
Given the other products that manufacturers like Bosch and Hitachi make I assume that the motors are going to be fairly reliable. I don't know how quickly the tech moves on, probably fairly smartish given this is all relatively new, so is it possible that early adopters might find it increasingly hard to get replacement motors? Just a thought, might not be a problem.
If anything does go wrong with the motor then it's almost certainly a back to base job, I can't see many LBSs having the kit to service them. Not a big deal nor nothing new - you have to send dynamo hubs back to the manufacturer to be serviced, I had to do that with mine last year.
Is the speed restriction on the assist functionality there to avoid licensing/insurance issues?
As for equivalent effort - that's completely missing the point. When I get to the top of a climb I've done so via my effort. If I did that climb on an ebike then I've been assisted, that's the whole point of them, it's not my effort. It doesn't matter whether I was faster on the ebike or even if I dawdled on the standard bike and busted a gut on the e-bike. One is my effort and one isn't. It's the difference between free climbing and aid climbing.
If I lived in a town/city then I'd probably have a commuter/cargo ebike but for my hobby/sport then no, not for the foreseeable future.
piemonster.
I think we rode less than 2 miles of the actual official trails
Drifting OT but...
I tend to go by Trail Forks and Strava Heat Map, anything else I should look at for finding those trails? I’m really very unsociable on a bike so miss the local knowledge part. I’ve another hill run/bike outing on the cards. Might scrap the run part of there’s some trail exploring to be done, the current MTB(s) is too shiny for stashing in the woods for a couple of hours.
Now Kerley I realise this concept is probably going to be well over your head but please try to stop assuming you know what you're talking about when in reality you have next to no personal experience and hold very little knowledge of a subject.
Every single person I know who has derestrictred their emtb has done so to get rid of the annoying assist cut out yo-yo (and subsequent pedalling through treacle feeling) you get around the 15 - 16mph point in acceleration and make it feel closer to a regular bike. (ie. gradually getting harder to accelerate) Not to tear along at 30mph everywhere or pass other riders dangerously. Personally I tend to sprint out of almost every flat corner to above 15mph no matter which bike I'm riding so on a uk restricted emtb I know the assist cut-out and in traits all too well. I've no idea how you ride your singlespeed road bike off road Kerley but I'd assume even you reach speeds in excess of 15mph on the flat too. Had the UK assist limit been set at 20mph like many other countries outside europe a lot of uk/european emtb riders would probably not have felt the need to derestricted their bikes at all.
Other than on climbs no one is going any faster on an (pedalec) emtb than a regular bike can go. restricted or not.
Absolutely any car or bicycle can be driven dangerously/irresponsibly.
Please do the human race a favour and stop putting people you don't even know into neat little categories to justify your own weird prejudices and intolerances.
Even by your own standards geex that last post was an outstanding load of self justifying patronising drivel.
I salute you 👏👏👏
Other than on climbs no one is going any faster on an (pedalec) emtb than a regular bike can go. restricted or not.
You've repeatedly said your ebike is faster downhill.
I’m 57 and find pedaling uphill very difficult nowadays. I think that quite a few users on this site may be in a similar position.
I'm almost 61 and I've always found pedalling uphill very difficult, but for me that's the point. Getting to the top of a climb under my own effort is one of the reasons I go cycling. I have a motorbike for that other stuff.
Just back from a week in the Outer Hebrides and there are lots of e-bikes doing the Hebridean Way or just scooting around the islands. Most are ridden by folk my age or older. One of the things I did notice is that most of the riders were wearing multiple layers of clothing - waterproof jackets, fleeces, long trousers, wooly hats, big gloves etc while I was mostly riding around in a thin top and shorts. It occurred to me that they'd feel a lot warmer if they were actually putting in a decent effort.
Montgomery. The Downhills I tend to ride most also happen to be regularly ridden by a fairly high number of professional EWS and WC DH racers. Trust me. My Ebike isn't going faster than those guys trail/enduro/DH bikes are. Read what I actually typed instead of making shit up to suit a snide retort.
Scotroutes. I think it's a shame when I hear old guys like you say you think you're too fit and young to consider an ebike. By the time you're properly decrepit most folk simply won't have the strength or bravery to ride one well anymore. You actually have to be fairly strong/fit and skilled to ride them well.
it's really nothing like sitting twisting a throttle and leaning while sat down.
or is your motorcycle a MX/Trials bike?
Now Kerley....uneccessary drivel...
Please do the human race a favour and stop putting people you don’t even know into neat little categories to justify your own weird prejudices and intolerances.
I actually posed the question "what sort of person is attracted to a de-restricted eBike." can't see how you read that as categorisation, prejudice etc,. and you could have just answered giving some examples of the people you know who ride de-restricted bikes to provide a view.
Others could have then given some counter examples, who knows.
You really do have some issues don't you.
Scotroutes. I think it’s a shame when I hear old guys like you say you think you’re too fit and young to consider an ebike. By the time you’re properly decrepit most folk simply won’t have the strength or bravery to ride one well anymore. You actually have to be fairly strong/fit and skilled to ride them well.
Yeah - I get that, but like I said, the physical effort required to ride my bicycle, the reward I get from that achievement etc is the main reason I do it. Remember, I've ridden quite a few e-bikes as a result of work so I'm not dissing them from no experience, they're just not for me. And yeah, maybe one day I'll be happy to use/include one as a way of still exploring the countryside, either off-road or on-road.
Do I think they're a good thing or a bad thing? I doubt it's that clear cut. I do worry that they could be part of a general trend in society away from partaking in hard, physical activity. On the other hand, they could help wean folk out of their cars and the more folk that explore the outdoors generally, the more folk appreciate it and might want to help preserve it.
To answer the OPs question; tipping point? I don't think there is one.
I knew it'd go straight over your head Kerley.
Sorry. I'll spell it out for you by quoting the weird "prejudice and intolerence" part I was referring to.
what sort of person is attracted to a derestricted eBike. It is like saying it is not the car that is the problems yet certain cars will most likely be driven by idiots that other cars.
🙄
and you think I have issues?
m'kay
Kids can wheelie em’
Whats not to grin about..
One of the things I did notice is that most of the riders were wearing multiple layers of clothing – waterproof jackets, fleeces, long trousers, wooly hats, big gloves etc while I was mostly riding around in a thin top and shorts.
I used to see that when I was on my singlespeed and everyone else seemed to be on gears
It occurred to me that it was non of my buisness what anyone else was wearing or riding.
U OK hun?
Or are you just trying to argue for arguments sake? (hint - you're not as good at it as geex, so don't try to emulate him)
I'm fine.
Just not sure what point you're trying to make about what other people wear.
Well that just got a bit weird(er)
I'm off out on my microscooter in my top hat and tails
Just not sure what point you’re trying to make about what other people wear.
The point being made is, if the people weren't riding e-bikes they'd be working hard enough to keep warm without the need of thick layers of clothing.
Same could be said about singlespeeds compared to geared bikes too...
What about roadies? they always look over dressed.
Pointless point is pointless.
The Downhills I tend to ride most also happen to be regularly ridden by a fairly high number of professional EWS and WC DH racers. Trust me. My Ebike isn’t going faster than those guys trail/enduro/DH bikes are. Read what I actually typed instead of making shit up to suit a snide retort.
No, I wasn't saying what you've inferred. You have repeatedly said that you, personally, are faster downhill on your e-bike than on a conventional bike. Nothing relating to other riders. It contradicts your statement that:
Other than on climbs no one is going any faster on an (pedalec) emtb than a regular bike can go. restricted or not.
“You have repeatedly said that you, personally, are faster downhill on your e-bike than on a conventional bike.“
I don’t that that was Geex, I think that was me. And I’m quicker on the ebike because it has bigger wheels, a better fork and slightly more aggro geometry than my (now sold) full-sus. And I think the extra weight in the frame improves the suspension performance and I like the extra stability (but I’m not light, fairly strong and my weak point on the bike is confidence - I’d rather ride a DH Bike than an XC bike on techier trails).
The motor isn’t doing anything most of the time, it only does anything when you’re pedalling AND below 15.5mph. I avoid trails like that and prefer pumping to pedalling.
I just hope that all these people who are now riding twice as far are now doing twice the amount of trail work (although admittedly 0X2=0.....)
On a less snarky note, I don't want to own a 50Lb bike (it's not 2003 any more) and I don't want to go uphill twice as fast. But a bike that weighs 10Lb more than my current bike with more modest pedal assist would be tempting in the future. But people always want MAX POWER!! Reminds me of my more nerdy Hi-Fi days where people would buy stereos with a claimed 1000w output and loads of dials, knobs and flashing lights, but ultimately a boring black box with 20w output and a bass and treble knob was generally way better.
“I just hope that all these people who are now riding twice as far are now doing twice the amount of trail work (although admittedly 0X2=0…..)”
I’m riding about the same distance but taking less time to do it. Which really helps when you run your own business, have two small children and a third on the way.
I knew it’d go straight over your head Kerley.
Just because I don't agree with what you are saying does not equal going above my head. In my view (which is different to yours, wow) a non restricted e-bike could attract people that will ride it irresponsibly. In the same way as a boy racered up car will attract young men who don't drive cars responsibly.
I think kerley has a point,
If you pull up at a set of traffic lights next to a mitsubishi evo, you ‘might’ expect the driver to give it the berries when they change to green,
In the same way, if you pull up next to a kia rio, you ‘might not’ expect the driver to give it the berries.
It’s not an absolute, but what you ‘might’ reasonably expect to happen.
You also ‘might’ expect the type of rider who would go to the trouble (and considerable expense) of derestricting an Ebike to ride it like a knob.
Of course, not everyone who does it will ride like that, but etc etc.
I see Ebikes as a divergence - a sort of macroevolution of MTB’ing. They will co-exist alongside ‘normal’ bikes because they serve different purposes. I don’t therefore see a tipping point.
I’m ambivalent towards them - I can see how Ebikes might help older riders and those that want to maximise their time on the slopes and such like. I have to say I’ve never tried one - I don’t not feel inclined to do so ... each to their own and all that.
I just hope that all these people who are now riding twice as far are now doing twice the amount of trail work (although admittedly 0X2=0…..)
I find riding mine while carrying a spade etc is easier than on my Capra so I’m doing my share of trail maintenance.
In my local forest I’m pretty much the only person to do any in the last 15 years I reckon.
Regarding the “it’s a completely different thing” theory
Pedalling - less effort or same effort, more speed or distance
Jumping - same
Cornering - same
Wheelies - same (just don’t use turbo mode)
Manuals - harder (on mine) to get front wheel up
So if turning the pedals is your main attraction to MTB, then yes, it’s a bit different, but to me you might as well be on an exercise bike in a gym.
If it’s all the other aspects of riding, then it’s the same, but you get to do the fun bits more.
I’m not sure why you’re even referencing your recent thread when your views (and many others) there were laced with complete ignorance. It’s not really the bike that’s the problem (derestricted or not) It’s the etiquate/common sense/manners of the rider(s) you encountered
I'm not the ignorant one though. It's the nob on the e-bike.
Your 'information' is laced with daft logic.
Regardless of the pros and cons, unless I am a pensioner or I develop a disability, then i'll be damned if I intend to ever ride an e-bike. I like the uphills almost as much as the downhills, theyre part of the fun. The sense of achievement that I made it up a swine of climb under my own leg power is reward enough for me.
“The sense of achievement that I made it up a swine of climb under my own leg power is reward enough for me.”
I like that too. It’s particularly satisfying doing it on a 50lb ebike with the assistance switched off whilst others are failing on their far lighter normal bikes.
Have we reached a tipping point with regard to E-bikes?
Yeah, in terms of I see one or two out most rides these days. That's only really happened this year. But...
those left on normal bikes will become the social outcasts
Nah, the stigma* will remain for a good while yet - if not always.
*An observation made without judgement, before you jump down my throat. It is what it is.
I find riding mine while carrying a spade etc is easier than on my Capra so I’m doing my share of trail maintenance.
In my local forest I’m pretty much the only person to do any in the last 15 years I reckon.
I seem to remember you talking about trail work many years ago on a ride on Cannock Chase 🙂
I think E-bikes would be a great tool for trail building / maintenance. Hopefully more people realize this as they get more popular.
I am not convinced that the internal motor of the e-bike and specific e-bikes is the future and is going to be interesting to see how they all hold up over the years.
I believe that retro fit motor packs will come about in a ideal way to be fitted to enable you to have it on those big days out when you know you are going to want it. bike manufactures would prefer it as it would make life easier for them and wouldn't need to worry about chasing motor technology.
I remember when full suspension was really starting to become more
mainstream and the naysayers called them skill compensators...
Now it’s ebikes. I have no idea why people have such strong feelings about them.
I’ve just finished three days in the lakes on a Decoy with another also on a Decoy: a couple of laps of Patterdale on Friday, Borrowdale Bash and Skiddaw yesterday and a longer loop around Skiddaw today and back to Grange, about 55 miles.
We’re at different levels of fitness, I rode in the lowest configuration within Eco, he was on Trail and we were able to ride together the whole time for three days. He was taking it easy on the downhills, still getting used to the weight of popping the front up but at the age of 79 I guess he’s earned the right to let me get the gates 🙂
He is fit (super fit for his age) but regardless he was climbing like he did 20 years ago, and he loved it. I loved that we were able to ride together on some great trails (although the last push up the top of the last Patterdale climb was miserable work).
About a quarter of the riders I met made some little comment about cheating. They are missing the point completely. Not better, not worse, just different.
'I like that too. It’s particularly satisfying doing it on a 50lb ebike with the assistance switched off whilst others are failing on their far lighter normal bikes.'
Fair enough, but it begs the question 'Why have an e-bike if you don't use the assistance?'. Surely that's the only reason they exist isn't it?
“Fair enough, but it begs the question ‘Why have an e-bike if you don’t use the assistance?’. Surely that’s the only reason they exist isn’t it?”
My regular riding schedule is my daily commute and the Thursday night group ride (the group part of it is 1900-2100).
I was commuting on one of my MTBs - I briefly did it on my old Brompton and hated how restrictive it was - but then I started going to the gym more (doing squat/bench/deadlift focused heavy stuff) and in the interest of having legs that could still pedal on a Thursday night I started using our old 50cc scooter more for the commute (and also to keep it running now my wife wasn’t using it).
I’d been e-curious for a while, particularly having had Timmy C (of bass playing fame, if there’s such a thing as that?!) go on and on and on at me about them, and he’s a way more hardcore MTBer than me, the sort that holds KOMs both down and uphill on gnarly terrain in noted spots.
Anyway, I got the Levo in December and it has been bloody brilliant!
My commute is as quick as on the scooter but more fun (urban drops, woo!) especially if I have the time to go the long way via the proper trails. When my legs feel like it I pedal hard, when they don’t I pedal softer but I don’t get there tons slower thanks to the motor hauling me up the hills at a reasonable pace.
And as I ride to and from the Thursday ride (it’s about 20 minutes away on the way there and 30 minutes coming home if you’re pedalling hard), I get there quicker - if I’ve done my usual leaving it to the last minute trick I arrive sounding like I’ve just finished an XC race (ebikes go quicker when you pedal hard!) and then as all the fresh riders sprint off on the dot of 7pm, I can give myself a rest in eco mode, and then turn it off and do the ride like I’m on a heavier bike - and then turn it back to get home quicker.
The assistance is controlled by two buttons near my left thumb - next to the grips above my dropper lever. It’s s bit like when I had 2x on my bike years ago - “I am not using the granny ring, unless I’m about to stall!” Same with the assistance when I’m riding with all my non-ebike riding mates.
It’s saving me about 25 minutes a day on the commute and making the uphill slog home at 9pm after the group night ride a much better experience (singletrack uphill at speed is fun!)
And most importantly, I love how it rides as a normal MTB! I was hoping to take it to Wales this weekend (for four days of uplift!) but had a scheduling clash. I can’t wait to get it on some trails that make the best of it being such a monster truck, it’s so fast and stable when you point it downhill.
Don’t care. Still enjoying what I do. I’ll get one when peddling uphill is no longer fun.
I view e-bikes in the same way I view mobility scooters.
For some they are invaluable as a way to maintain mobility and avoid becoming secluded due to increasing frailty. Many though seem to use them because they're lazy, or claim that they need one "cause of me fibro" or some other self-diagnosed 'condition'.
And before anyone breaks out the "you're just jealous/envious" line, I could quite easily afford to get one just from my 'war pension'. Perhaps one day when the injuries that qualify me for those payments worsen to the point I can't ride an 'analogue' bike I might consider it, but for now I'll keep earning my decents.
So if turning the pedals is your main attraction to MTB
The thing is, it doesn't have to be the main attraction to be *part* of MTBing.
With regards to the "skill compensator" FS argument, did anybody ever say that in a non-ironic way? Or actually say it about anyone's bike but their own? An FS is an evolution and a development of what you can build that can be powered by a human - it gives advantages, but there's more weight to get up hills, higher costs and more complexity. Putting a motor on it changes the game.
We now seem to be having an argument that derestricting is just to avoid annoyances actually and is fine and isn't really irresponsible at all, but then where do you draw the line? Society/the law has drawn the line where they have. I'm sure you could engineer in a gentle power taper over speeds approaching 15mph if this really was your problem. Ebikes won't kil access for MTBers, but derestriction might kill off ebikes.
Tipping point in the sense that they will eventually take over? No, but I think we are reaching peak marketing. Things should calm down soon, once the marketing folk have got all the eBike curious to splash their cash and have moved on the the "next big thing".
There are a lot of parallels with the fatbike thing of a few years ago. Those who spent their cash on one would protest loudly on forums like this that they were not just for snow/sand and were great fun everywhere, just like those who have spent their cash on ebikes are keen to claim that they are not just for the old and infirm. Both groups are right, but the fact remains that, for most people, most of the time a "normal" bike is still going to be the best option.
Walk into JE James now and their main focus is on E, with the normal bikes off to one side.
I've got a Kenevo and love it. I fully intend to still use my other 3 MTB's, but they are locked away somewhere, due to current lack of storage at home.
Someone mentioned 'time poor, money rich men' owning them. There's an element of truth in that for me. Working away from home, I don't get out so much with my normal riding group, then when I do, it's painful as they are much fitter than me on a normal bike.
I took it to BPW the other week and it was great. BPW is knackering even downhill - just having some assistance back up to the bus, when everyone was pushing was nice, as were the pedally bits on the top of the hill. Downhill, where I wasn't being assisted, it was faster than my Capra
With regards to general uphill, it makes it fun, especially technical sections - not just ones where it removes some element of skill, but some that I'd never get up on a normal bike, regardless of fitness. And you can set the level of assistance anywhere from 0-100% if you do want to work. I rode up the Beast @ Ladybower the other week instead of 'Poo, illegitimate child climb'. Yep, ormal people on normal bikes do this, but no way I'd have attempted it normally
