[humblebrag]
Did 96.8miles in the White Peak yesterday, not sure which would be worse, range anxiety for my legs or for a battery.
[/humblebrag]
having recently bought an Evo i would add that the assist speed limit is a good thing and should be left alone.
derestricting as the discussion shows on here between MTBers is contentious and will only be seen as confirmation from members of the public / councils that EMTB's should not be allowed on trails (after all fellow MTBers cant agree).
the speeds you can attain uphil are as many have said well below unassiated downhill speeds and make technical climbs a new fun challenge BUT are unexpected by other trail users.
Argument to remove or increase the allowable speed assist limit is 100% likely to only go one way - a lower limit or outright ban of EMTB use away from paved roads (as the USA is evolving).
Any argument that the derestriction is needed due to the way the assist is lost on safety grounds is rubbish - be honest and just state i want to go faster and cant be bothered to pedal.
The wider public and council / govmt will assume the worst and legislate for the minority that act inappropriately.
EMTB does not need a disabled rider or old rider to be of value its just a different experience.
I find it has more flow throughout the whole ride, not better just different.
Im not competing with anyone, but comments on here and in wider world with regard to derestriction are a sad measure of the me me me nature of todays world.
Derestriction sits in the same category as needing a 500hp car to accelerate away from danger - you know your wrong, you know your self indulgent and self centred and cant face the reality.
Mine's deristricted, because that's how I wan't it. The 16mph limit is frustrating on a 50lb bike with big tyres - it's constantly kicking in/out.
I think I've got mine set to 25mph, but that doesn't mean I'm blasting along trails at 25mph, nor going uphill at ridiculous speeds - in fact, uphill, ebikes prefer a high cadence, so you are still in a low gear. There is only so fast your legs can spin, assisted or not.
It's nothing to do with safety grounds, I just simply wouldn't have one if it had to be restricted. I wouldn't find it enjoyable
Premier Icon
smogmonsterunless I am a pensioner i’ll be damned if I intend to ever ride an e-bike.
I’m a pensioner now and I’m seriously very tempted by one - in fact, when Liteville produce the e-301 I’ll be all over it, enthused by videos of Tom Ohler and Harald Phillip riding down improbable alpine via ferrata.
The only reason that I haven’t had one before now is that I split my time between two places and would like one in each, which is far more expense than I can justify.
So, at the minute, it has to be a couple of 301’s.
At Yorkshire True Grit at the weekend, there were several people riding e-bikes most were past retirement age. I spoke to a few on the ride and they said that and E-bike allows them to ride instead of being stuck at home. Given the hills around there, I'd have no problem justifying it even as a 43-year-old. An quick evening ride around the would mean never venturing more than a 10-mile radius from home. With an e-bike, you'd get access to much more.
"The 16mph limit is frustrating on a 50lb bike with big tyres – it’s constantly kicking in/out."
It's fine on my Levo which is also a 50lb bike with big tyres. But I think that's partly due to how the software deals with you riding at around that speed and partly because although they're big tyres, they're not horribly draggy (Hillbilly Grid 29x2.6 front, Butcher 29x2.6 and now Eliminator 29x2.3 rear). Then again it could also be because I'm a fairly strong pedaller (though far from an XC racer!)
in fact, uphill, ebikes prefer a high cadence, so you are still in a low gear.
That's a myth. They actually don't as output is based on both cadence AND torque put through the crank by the rider there's a definite sweetspot in cadence as to what level of assist the motor outputs in each mode and a sweetspot as to what cadence is most efficient in each mode.
eg. around 50rpm is actually far more efficient in eco on a E8000 steps motor than 90rpm+ and at anything above about 130rpm the motor pretty much stops outputing any assistance at all (in every mode).
Derestriction sits in the same category as needing a 500hp car to accelerate away from danger – you know your wrong, you know your self indulgent and self centred and cant face the reality.
Please Mr Fun police goany no take away my 4X bike?
Clue: It's ****ing way faster down the first straight at my local BMX track than a 48lb derestricted Emtb?
Clue no 2: they're push bikes FFS! they can't actually go fast* anywhere but downhill or behind a massive wind break. piddly wee leccy motor or not.
*30mph isn't fast
FFS 🙄
With regards to the “skill compensator” FS argument, did anybody ever say that in a non-ironic way?
Are you kidding? It was a daily topic, pretty relentless. Here’s a random thread I plucked off a search. https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/do-i-need-a-skill-compensator/
Here are two comments, it took about 30 seconds to find them.
Seriously have you thought about a skills day first, it's made a vast difference to my jey mincing, it's an awful lot less money, I'm pretty confident that a day with Ed O of Great Rock has probably gained me another year at least of finding the limits of a fully rigid bike. I'm planning to keep going back as it seems a far cheaper way of upping my game long term than splurging on new kit almost continously.
you don't need a skills compensator, you need some skills.
also you seem right on the extreme of bikes (very jey),something with a 120mm fork some widish bars and some proper sized tyres would set you right up. I'm thinking 456, soul, PA sorta bike.
what are the locals riding?
In any of these threads from about 10 years ago, substitute skills compensator for ebike, the rhetoric is similar.
Haha, I've just had a glance at the 9 year old thread. My, how times have changed! 🙂
I believe that retro fit motor packs will come about in a ideal way to be fitted to enable you to have it on those big days out when you know you are going to want it
That would be my ideal also
I don't think cost is a problem with these ebikes.. They sell!
I live near a reservoir with a well known bike shop situated in the main car park. Its downstairs is now a massive ebike showroom, these things cost a ****in fortune. And they seem to sell like hotcakes.
Each time I head in there for a browse I see a few lined up, prepped for customer collection.
The bike shop sells the utopia of easy, no sweat exercise and people buy into it.
I see soo many being ridden round the lake.
The demographic I see seems to be middle aged couples, with his and hers ebikes.
Usually with brand new matching camelbacks, new gloves, new rain jackets and Iphones mounted to the bars.
They get back to their SUV (that's never seen a pothole let alone any sports utility) load up the bikes on the newly purchased Thule rack, off they go feeling pumped after the epic 9 mile flat ride.
I don't know these people but I suspect that once summer goes the bikes will not get used again, maybe next summer.
Or the teenagers who have hired one and then ride the route like they stole it, pulling sick skids and wheelies.
I don't think I have ever seen what I would call a seasoned MTB'er on one around here.
I see the point, I'm sure they are initially great fun, open up further trails, allow more downs without the pain of ups, enable less active people to get outside.
But to a rider who (at this time in his life anyway) does not require any of the above, they are just plain annoying when they clog up the trails and bike shops.
Jeez, I'm so grumpy.
https://singletrackworld.com/charged/2019/06/24/2020-commencal-meta-power-29-team-first-ride/
this is almost enough to tip me over into an e-bike purchase...
If I get a bad injury then E-bikes would be useful. Already broken a few bones in my foot a year ago and it hurts to put out a lot of power or run.
My Dad is 70 and I can see him on an E-bike but recently changed his ratio to be easier uphill.
I live near a reservoir with a well known bike shop situated in the main car park. Its downstairs is now a massive ebike showroom, these things cost a **** fortune. And they seem to sell like hotcakes.
Each time I head in there for a browse I see a few lined up, prepped for customer collection.
The bike shop sells the utopia of easy, no sweat exercise and people buy into it.I see soo many being ridden round the lake.
The demographic I see seems to be middle aged couples, with his and hers ebikes.
Usually with brand new matching camelbacks, new gloves, new rain jackets and Iphones mounted to the bars.
They get back to their SUV (that’s never seen a pothole let alone any sports utility)* load up the bikes on the newly purchased Thule** rack, off they go feeling pumped after the epic 9*** mile flat ride.I don’t know these people but I suspect that once summer goes the bikes will not get used again, maybe next summer.
Or the teenagers who have hired one and then ride the route like they stole it, pulling sick skids and wheelies.
I don’t think I have ever seen what I would call a seasoned MTB’er on one around here.
I see the point, I’m sure they are initially great fun, open up further trails, allow more downs without the pain of ups, enable less active people to get outside.
But to a rider who (at this time in his life anyway) does not require any of the above, they are just plain annoying when they clog up the trails and bike shops.
Jeez, I’m so grumpy.
You saw my parents at Rutland then? His and Her's matching Trek Powerfly's.
*T5
**Fammia
***They're now semi retired to Wensleydale and do more mountainbiking than I do 😂
I'm not sure why we should need a tipping point. With the way technology has moved in mountain bikes since we started in 87 and the speed of it over the last 10 years who knows what the next 10 will bring.
In true Singletrack fashion you can be sure the moaners will still be moaning, the haters will still be hating and those of us that ride what ever bikes with a big grin on our faces will still be doing that.
In the grand scheme of things does it really matter what we ride as long as we enjoy it. 😎
medlow,
I live about 7 miles from rutland water, but unfortunately i dont have any matching characteristics with your generalizations about people that own an ebike, except i own an ebike and enjoy riding that along with the other bikes i own . not sure if 20 plus years of riding them makes me seasoned or not. i am plenty fit enough not to use an ebike but i have made a conscious decision to enjoy my life as i see fit and not let others decide for me
"... i own an ebike..."
With a login name like 'sofaking" I'm sure that doesn't come as a surprise to many.
😉
@sofaking
Just think how much better trips to the Golfie would feel though if you suffered on the climbs and only did half the amount of descending.
Your arms and upper body wouldn't ache half as much if you cut down on the number of descents you did in a day.😉
I'm much quicker on the same local trails on my FS 29er than I was on my rigid 26er in 1994. No-one seems to be whining about that, I wonder why?
Because whinning about 29ers is so 10 years ago
Whiners got to whine about something.
Sofaking.
I'm talking Grafham Water.
I'm not saying everyone who owns an ebike fits my observed demographic.
You are clearly the exception that I would enjoy seeing on the trail as I'm sure you ride courteously and would say hello with a knowledgable nod to another 'seasoned' MTB'er. 😉
From my observation round here, it's either teenagers hiring and riding them like they just stole it, weaving down the trail, skidding and just generally being a nuisance.
Or middle aged husband & wife tourists doing 5mph on their new his and hers ebikes, riding 2 abreast and getting completely spooked by my very polite, clear and well in advance warning that another rider wants to pass. They just slam the brakes and wobble to a stop in the middle of the trail.
I stay away from the lake trails now during peak times and stick to the off piste.
I'm sure that 5 years ago these guys would have found something else to do and I'm not saying they should keep off the trails, not at all.
But maybe the easy access benefit of ebikes has opened up the sport to folk who don't have the wider skill set to deal with the trails and other users.
That's a weirdly exclusive attitude.
That’s a weirdly exclusive attitude.
Indeed!
I’m much quicker on the same local trails on my FS 29er than I was on my rigid 26er in 1994. No-one seems to be whining about that, I wonder why?
Seriously? I'm pretty chilled about ebikes but I can understand why some people get their knickers in a twist over them.
(It's the motors, but I think you knew that really).
To go back to the OP, at a tangent... if there's a real "tipping point" it might be when the impact (or not) of ebikes becomes apparent.
What I mean is, there are lots of unfounded fears and prejudices about them at the mo, along with a few founded ones no doubt (eg. the attitude some riders here have to derestricting them). But as they get more popular we'll see which fears are justified or not.
I reckon this question was asked when some bright spark stuck a petrol engine in a bike in the 19th C.
E-bikes have a closer relationship to a motorbike than a real bike and are symptomatic of our bloody lazy society that wants everything easy. The cycling version of just eat!
Ride one of the monstrosities if you like but don't try to pretend you are cycling! 🙂
E-bikes have a closer relationship to a motorbike than a real bike and are symptomatic of our bloody lazy society that wants everything easy.
Well, I have to pedal mine or it doesn’t go, it weighs around 24kg whereas my GasGas weighs around 110kg
It puts out 250watts whereas the GasGas puts out 41Kw
It handles pretty much the same as my regular MTBs.
It’s fairly quiet.
So yeah, Ebikes are just like motorbikes.
E-bikes have a closer relationship to a motorbike than a real bike
There's a definitive list of the similarities right here- LINK
E-bikes have a closer relationship to a motorbike than a real bike
As someone who used to race moto enduro's at British, European and World levels I see no similarities at all apart from they both have two wheels.
At no point when I've been out on my Ebike have I thought, this is just like the bikes I used to race think I'll enter the ISDE again.
What I have thought though is Oooh this is like having a personal uplift so I can ride more interesting descents in the same time I can on my other bikes.
Motorbikes require you to be much fitter to ride fast offroad.
Motorbikes are much harder to ride down steep, tight twisty trails.
You can't just get off and carry a motorbike uphill if it's to steep/techy for you.
So nothing like a motorbike then.
That’s a weirdly exclusive attitude.
Dont get me wrong, I have nothing against ebikes.. I get them, I really do.
They do look great fun and I see all the benefits. I will try one, one day.
My observed (although maybe somewhat limited to only a few areas) skill/confidence level of the riders is probably the issue.
I saw a teenager on a hire ebike only last weekend flying round blind corner to nearly take out a family group the other day. He was riding like a loony just before that incident. I suspect if they were on a classic bike they would have not been going so fast.
I've seen this quite a few times.
The same for the casual late 50's married couple, I see loads of them on my local trail. They look sooo nervous on the ebike and they crap themselves at any hint of danger, other riders wanting to overtake, a dog running around in front of them, etc etc.
If the bike shop did not have massive flags saying 'hire your ebike today!' then these two groups would probably be on a classic bike, and maybe more in-control, basically just slower allowing them more time to react to any normal public trail.
I'm positive that in the right hands/feet an ebike is just perfect. But seem to end up with the wrong group of people with zero cycle experience, sometimes, from what I have seen..
I’m talking Grafham Water.
I’m not saying everyone who owns an ebike fits my observed demographic.
You are clearly the exception that I would enjoy seeing on the trail as I’m sure you ride courteously and would say hello with a knowledgable nod to another ‘seasoned’ MTB’er. 😉
From my observation round here, it’s either teenagers hiring and riding them like they just stole it, weaving down the trail, skidding and just generally being a nuisance.
Or middle aged husband & wife tourists doing 5mph on their new his and hers ebikes, riding 2 abreast and getting completely spooked by my very polite, clear and well in advance warning that another rider wants to pass. They just slam the brakes and wobble to a stop in the middle of the trail.I stay away from the lake trails now during peak times and stick to the off piste.
I’m sure that 5 years ago these guys would have found something else to do and I’m not saying they should keep off the trails, not at all.
But maybe the easy access benefit of ebikes has opened up the sport to folk who don’t have the wider skill set to deal with the trails and other users.
Gaffham water? FFS I was doing laps of that on my CX bike last month as I was working up the road. The biggest problem? Other gravel/CX bikes. Didn't see a single e-bike actually (probably because it was always >6pm).
Wearing down the trails? Come on......... The worst bit is the bit i the SW corner where it seems like someone dumped a lot of gravel at the top of the hill and bikes all ride down the strip in the verge of the field. The rest of it is pretty much a perfect surface.
Traffic? They'd wobble to a stop in the middle of the trail even on normal bikes, it's an electric motor not electric brakes. And it's the archetypal family country park type trail, not a trail center, what kind of riders did you expect! Grafham water requires a skill level somewhere around being able to ride a balance bike and/or stabilisers.
I don't like the idea of e-bikes particularly. But if I was going to expect them to be popular anywhere, it's Grafham/Rutland/Tissington/other tourist attraction cycle trails.
I’m sure that 5 years ago these guys would have found something else to do
Segway tours and pit bikes depending on demographic.
An inexperienced rider is still inexperienced regardless of the bike. The difference is maybe that they wouldn't ride at all if it wasn't for e-bikes, so you're seeing more of them now.
Maybe I relate to this more because I've only been mountain biking a couple of years but I remember my first few rides out on proper trails having people tearing up behind me wanting to pass. It's unnerving and I totally understand why people behave unpredictably when they're not sure what to do. The trails are there for everyone and you'll never learn those kinds of skills pootling around on fire roads.
Didn’t see a single e-bike actually (probably because it was always >6pm).
Agreed yes, because the big signs advertising ebike hire has been taken down and the shop closed for the day.
During the day there's plenty buzzing about.
Wearing down the trails? Come on………
I never mentioned anything about wearing down trails.
They’d wobble to a stop in the middle of the trail even on normal bikes,
Yes, but I doubt they would even be there if it was not for the ebike though.
Grafham water requires a skill level somewhere around being able to ride a balance bike and/or stabilisers.
Yes fully agree, but I still see people crashing into each other and toppling over.
I was approaching an elderly couple (on ebikes) the other afternoon (Grafham Water is on my commute home) I saw them a mile off, slowed right down and pulled over, between me and them was a dog walker with a lively dog running about, they both panicked and crisscrossed all around in confusion, one buzzed the others tyre and there was nearly an accident at like 3mph.. We all had a giggle about when I asked if they were OK.
If it wasent for the ebike (they said they hired them), they would not have been there.
But if I was going to expect them to be popular anywhere, it’s Grafham/Rutland/Tissington/other tourist attraction cycle trails.
I can't agree more. Made more popular over the last year with the addition of ebike sales/hire at the main car park, no doubt.
There was a thread on here a while back, a member was posting his annoyance of ebikes at trail centres, buzzing past on the climbs, sitting on your back wheel, no skill level to get down safely etc etc.
The consensus was not the ebikes, it was the riders. Same here.
The end result was take your riding to lesser known trails where there are less tourists on ebikes. Same goes for Grafham/Rutland/Tissington. I do that.
I'm not poking at experienced riders on ebikes. I'm purely stating that my opinion is ebikes bring more people to the trails, and a number of these new cyclists are without skills, confidence or intelligence to safely navigate around even a flat tourist attraction cycle trail, let alone a proper trail centre.
EBIKES are great. I can ride mine with full power on, going like batshit. I can ride it with 20-50% assistance for a recovery ride, or if I want a proper work out, ride with my mates on non-ebikes with the power off. This is bloody hard work but I have got so much fitter than them that riding a normal bike is like cheating. What’s not to like?
Even if we take an ELECTRIC motorbike, they are very, very different beasts.
0-50mph in 4.5 seconds.
Try that on a (legal) pedal assist e-bike. Hell, try it on an unrestricted pedal assist e-bike.
They both have 2 wheels with knobble tyres. They both have suspension. Both have handlebars and a seat. The same!! 😀
In that respect, a ford fiesta is the same as an F1 car. 4 smooth wheels, suspension, at least 1 seat, and a steering wheel. 😀
Try comparing a 450/500cc enduro bike to an MTB and... nah.
And to add, if I lived somewhere with big climbs and big descents, I'd definitely consider an e-bike.
I got passed by one at the weekend on the Friston forest fireroad climb, which is 1.5 miles long, 400ft upwards, takes me 13 minutes or so at 6-7mph average. At the weekend I managed 5 full climbs and descents, a total of 18 miles, 2400ft climbing. We exchanged a cheery hello as he glided up the hill, with me looking lustfully at his bike for a few seconds before continuing my winch upwards.
if I lived somewhere with proper hills where the climbs were 800ft, 1000ft, or 1500ft, and the descents were the same, rather than 400ft and 10 minutes, yep, I'd get one. Sod riding uphill for 40 minutes, to do a 15 minute downhill, then having to do the same again, for just 2 runs in a couple of hours.
thisisnotaspoon
Gaffham water? FFS
😆
I was approaching an elderly couple (on ebikes) the other afternoon (Grafham Water is on my commute home) I saw them a mile off, slowed right down and pulled over, between me and them was a dog walker with a lively dog running about, they both panicked and crisscrossed all around in confusion, one buzzed the others tyre and there was nearly an accident at like 3mph.. We all had a giggle about when I asked if they were OK.
If it wasent for the ebike (they said they hired them), they would not have been there.
Swap "Grafham water" for any riderside towpath/cycle path, country park or similar, and any walkers, cyclists, dog walkers and so on.
e-bikes are doing their job, getting people outside on a bike who would otherwise be sat at home watching mindless TV. I constantly have groups of people see me, hear me (timber bell) and still carry on walking abreast the path, then when they decide they need to make some room, they always split, one on one side, one on the other.. why! 😀
I've had dog walkers on trails, and the most friendly, but stupid dogs standing sideways across the trail whilst I'm there trackstanding for all my life, haha. The dogs then decide the want to come with me before the owners call them back, we all have a chuckle 20 seconds later it's forgotten about. Nice fast rocky descent ahead of me, 2 horses coming up, I choose to wait for 5 minutes and enjoy the view before hurtling down the descent. trail centre red trail, a family out with 2 little ones, the kids getting pushed and willed up a climb, I take my time and politely ask to get by and they allow me, I say to the kid as I pass "you can do it! and he gives me a thumbs up.
We all share the trails for the most part, whether it's other riders, horses, walkers, dogs, deer, squirrels, whatever. Makes no odds whether it's a child on a balance bike who's not fully in control, or an 80 year on an e-bike who's also not quite in control.
Doesn't matter if you're on a mtb, an e-mtb, a gravel bike, an enduro motorbike.
For me, seeing more people out on bikes, electric or not, is a good thing. Our sport is a very niche thing - in my immediate area of 30 people at work, 1 other person 'mountain bikes' and that's a loose term.
Exactly. It's flat as a runway.!
People flock there on a sunny day to hire an ebike and crash into each other.
The bike shop there has 2 floors, the downstairs probs has 40+ ebikes for sale.
There is even a road sign a mile away: 'Hire an ebike today!'
On the other hand, it's a nice, fast, 30min gravel bike hack at night/early morning when all those folk are not there.
sooty and jim, my forum name is about 15 years old i reckon( there was a US branded bike i lusted after at the time ). still only around 70kg which isnt bad for my age height 🙂
medlow. glad you see that now everyone one on an ebike is a poor cyclist. those people you talk of would be poor cyclists without a motot by the sounds of it, just slower
@sofaking
Just think how much better trips to the Golfie would feel though if you suffered on the climbs and only did half the amount of descending.
Your arms and upper body wouldn’t ache half as much if you cut down on the number of descents you did in a day.😉
Oh how i missed those painful, climbs this time around
Grafham Water Cycle Track
I just watched the whole 45 minutes
medlow
Member
@seosamh77Exactly. It’s flat as a runway.!
People flock there on a sunny day to hire an ebike and crash into each other.
The bike shop there has 2 floors, the downstairs probs has 40+ ebikes for sale.
There is even a road sign a mile away: ‘Hire an ebike today!’On the other hand, it’s a nice, fast, 30min gravel bike hack at night/early morning when all those folk are not there.
You should be sheepishly walking away from this thread..
Give up, find better trails! 😆
"...Grafham Water Cycle Track..."
Gnarly!
Apparently the UCI is planning to hold a round of the EWS there next season due to its hucktastic and super sweet lines.
Definitely somewhere you need an uplift or e-bike if you want more than a couple of runs.
With bikes like this coming out my own personal tipping point is going to be sooner than I thought.
I could do some immense, after work, weekday rides on of these things.
^^^ and that there is what is going to happen I reckon.
Take Formula one. Let us imagine that in 5 years time sales of new electric vehicles and Hybrids are still rising rapidly. Ferrari and Mercedes make the decision to switch their racing to the E-formula. What happens to F1? It will continue on for sure, selling itself as the only pure form of racing, the original, best, most exciting form of motor racing, blah blah.... Meanwhile the high profile teams moving to the E-Formula give even more impetus to the sales of E-vehicles to the public. A tipping point has been crossed.
Now think of your normal MTB rides with your mates. First off you lose a couple of your group to the E-bike crowd. You're not bothered. But then a few more move over and before you know it, there is just you and the chap from accounts who never talks left. And eventually you need a new bike. What are you going to buy?
I guess that is how I envisage the E-bike tipping point. A certain momentum is reached whereby we will have to justify to ourselves NOT buying an E-bike, rather than justify buying one. There will always be people for whom an analogue bike will be their only choice, but I think there will be far more people for whom an E-bike will be their first choice.
And I think this point in time is a lot closer than many want to admit.
