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The fact that it’s vastly more dangerous for other road users than a cyclist going through a red light (even the ones who cruise through seemingly oblivious to everything round about them)
Evidence?
shows that the concerns people have for people on bikes jumping red lights have little to do with safety and more with perceptions and customs.
Pedestrians might disagree as they are most at risk by people on bikes blowing reds but otherwise, yes. The social contract is what people follow, as a custom. There are some bad laws that are unenforceable, which people don't see as part of the contract so they don't follow them. Why do motorists stop at red lights at 3am when they are the only car for miles? It isn't safety. Safety is one part that underlies the contract but there is more to it than that. It is the grease that allows people to get along without too much friction. And it is slowly breaking down. That's the bigger worry. As evidenced by the creep of what is acceptable and what isn't.
molgrips you yourself are a member of the general public. But yes. I do agree about your lack of common sense. 😉
I don't think anyone here is stupid. I do however think a lot of people posting here have difficulty with thinking for themselves.
it's nice that you love something about me though. Even if it is something entirely fictitous.
Geex - no one here has difficulty in thinking things through for themselves, you're not special in this regard. What others here seem to have and what you seem to lack is empathy, self reflection and emotional psychology.
Your actions, whilst obviously (perhaps smugly) well thought out and reasoned to you, wont appear so to others and they wont give you a forum to explain it. They’ll just assume you’re another self-entitled cyclist.
Try to help everyone, not just yourself.
Yes Daffy. I do have very low levels of empathy for first world problems. It really doesn't take a PHd in psychology to work out I have little empathy for trival issues.
Self reflection isn't an issue though and I'm actually pretty well read/informed on the subject of psychology.
I don't actually care how my actions while riding a bike seem to you (or anyone else here who has never actually witnessed me JRL)
You really are a total narcissist, aren't you? It's not ALL about YOU! Not is it about how we (STW) see you.
As many on here have said - your justification for taking the law into your own hands can and will affect others. You jumping lights to your hearts content increases animosity that cyclists (including myself) face from other road users. It's all connected - You must see that?
I commute over 40 miles a day on the bike, I too know the light timings and can watch pedestrians and car drivers for behaviour. But what you have to remember is that YOU many not be the only one jumping the lights and usually, when a car does it, it's at high speed.
BTW - it's PhD not PHd.
Not a total narcicist. No. Narcicistic traits. Yes.
You might be able to correct my capitalisation mistakes but you're really not that good with psychological diagnosis 😉
As I said. You haven't witnessed me do it so cannot possibly comment accurately on how it affects anyone. Nevermind accuse me of causing animosity towards anyone else.
it's "nor" and "may" BTW
Blimey, these are the issues folks...
I think if you stopped referring to yourself (and to the rest of us) as 'Cyclists' that would do more to help the cause than getting upset at people for red light jumping.
Guess what. Some people are always going to hate cyclists. If you don't RLJ you're holding them up by literally seconds to get to the next traffic light. If you do RLJ then you're an anarchist narcissist borderline terrorist who mows down old ladies and laughs at their still twitching corpses.
Get it out of your head that if you behave perfectly and obey all the rules, and everyone else who rides a bike behaves perfectly and obeys all the rules, then there will be harmony on the roads and everyone will be able to get on with their journeys in peace.
They are not going to stop hating you and they are not going to stop running over people.
Well said bruce
Bruce - you also used “cyclists” to define the group. What else should cyclists be? We’re a group of people who cycle...car drivers, pedestrians, all sub-divisions of people? Commuters? What?
I happen to think that if people (all people, all groups) did obey the rules of the road (highway code) the roads actually would be a more harmonious place. That’s what rules, laws and social contracts are in place to provide.
Willfully flouting them whenever you see fit just creates discord.
geex - what psychological diagnosis did I get wrong? I said you were a narcissist which was based upon reading your own comments and you pretty much agreed. As for my comments about your actions influencing social behaviour, I’m on firm ground here. People remeber and reinforce negative memories long after their initial formation. Everytime someone who cares sees you do whatever the hell you like on the road, they’ll remember THAT about cyclists (yes I used it again) rather than the 100/1000 that don’t. It doesnt matter whether you affected them directly or not, simply doing it reinforces their negative memories and ferments negative behaviour.
I've already explained what you got wrong in your pseudo psychology diagnosis.
Try reading it instead of spell checking it.
You also have absolutely no clue whether my actions have ever antagonised anyone or instilled a single negative memory nevermind *fermented* negative behaviour.
what should "cyclists" be thought of as?
People!
it's been said so often and explained by many other than me and bruce in this thread and you still don't get it. I fear you never will.
You honestly think you're capable of thinking for yourself?
hmmm..
People who get angry about cyclists jumping lights when it doesn't affect them in the slightest, were always going to get angry about something anyway.
If I avoid jumping the lights, they'll just find something else to get angry about.
I happen to think that if people (all people, all groups) did obey the rules of the road (highway code) the roads actually would be a more harmonious place. That’s what rules, laws and social contracts are in place to provide.
Willfully flouting them whenever you see fit just creates discord.
Except the exact opposite happens, as demonstrated in my previous posts. Have you heard of spontaneous order, or order out of chaos? It's the system which has resulted in evolution, language and beautiful fractals. It's a reaction to the environment, not by design and it produces the most stable systems.
Here's a more visual example of what happens when the traffic lights go out and people make up their own rules
Bruce – you also used “cyclists” to define the group. What else should cyclists be? We’re a group of people who cycle…car drivers, pedestrians, all sub-divisions of people? Commuters? What?
People on bikes. I sometimes slip up and say cyclist but I always try to emphasise the 'people' part.
Because people are so hell-bent on making people on bikes into some sort of special group which is a dangerous direction to go. People who don't cycle are quite happy to let us be in our own special group because then it dehumanises us and they don't feel bad about putting sub-humans in danger.
Please stop promoting the idea that we are a group and the actions of the few reflect on the majority. It's not true for people on foot, it's not true for people in cars, and it shouldn't be true for people on bikes.
Please stop promoting the idea that we are a group and the actions of the few reflect on the majority. It’s not true for people on foot, it’s not true for people in cars, and it shouldn’t be true for people on bikes
Dont get this, it seems so obviously true that people categorise others. I dont like it and would prefer it didnt happen but it does.
Here’s a more visual example of what happens when the traffic lights go out and people make up their own rules
See the problem with that is:
The dates aren't correct. 23 / 24 is Saturday / Sunday.
It's blatantly not January as there's deciduous trees in full leaf.
January 2010 was cold, wet, icey, snowy.
And you can't even see what the traffic lights are doing.
But please don't let that stop you posting nonsense.
The dates aren’t correct. 23 / 24 is Saturday / Sunday.
It’s blatantly not January as there’s deciduous trees in full leaf.
January 2010 was cold, wet, icey, snowy.
And you can’t even see what the traffic lights are doing.
Have you heard of the Southern Hemisphere? January in Auckland is a little different to here. Also, yes, the dates are incorrect in the video but the notes on YouTube give the correct dates, 25/26th. And while you indeed can’t see the lights it’s fairly clear from how people are interacting that they’re not operational in the left video.
The traffic lights example is an interesting one - I'm not sure that people are "making up their own rules", it's more that in the absence of the specific rules which are imposed by traffic lights, they are falling back on the more general rules of the road (give way to traffic from the right, etc)
There's a roundabout in Crawley, that has traffic lights on each junction, and it can be a nightmare during rush hour. On the several occasions where the lights have failed, the traffic flowed so much better - probably because people just treated it as a normal roundabout.
This kind of backs up my belief that traffic lights are only really required where, otherwise, the volume of traffic would prevent those with lower priority from ever getting the chance to progress. Most junctions don't have them, and this is because the normal rules are sufficient to allow things to work. Unfortunately some junctions have them when they shouldn't and vice-versa.
As for allowing people to "make up their own rules", you only have to negotiate the M23 North/M25 junction, during the morning rush hour, to see where that attitude would lead.
The whole point of the rules in the Highway Code, is to provide some level of predictability to the traffic flow, thereby reducing the amount of mental processing required to navigate through it. Ultimately, the rules aren't there to punish us, but to help us.
All is fine apart from the fact that a bike (carbon or alloy) will not make the friggin light change.
It’s legal to go through a malfunctioning traffic light on red, which is what I do for a similar setup where I live.
Interperate it how you like I'll pass on giving any credence to a sped up video with no detail that can't even get the dates right.
Fair enough on the southern hemisphere part - I meant to add a caveat re location but 15 mins limit and I needed a really big poo.
Ok, never mind the newspaper article or the other video which video which gives a sociological explanation that I also posted earlier. Here's another example of spontaneous order in Portishead, England. They experiment to remove the lights worked so well that they switched them off permanently
I don't really see that as a justification for jumping lights, more aa ammunition for lobbying the council.
You also have absolutely no clue whether my actions have ever antagonised anyone or instilled a single negative memory nevermind *fermented* negative behaviour.
I stone-cold guarantee they do. Ever been driven by someone else when a person on a bike jumps a light? Negativec reaction every time, and if anyone in the car knows I ride a bit, it then falls on me to justify it.
No need for traffic lights, people will figure it out.
I stone-cold guarantee they do. Ever been driven by someone else when a person on a bike jumps a light? Negativec reaction every time, and if anyone in the car knows I ride a bit, it then falls on me to justify it.
And playing along just reinforces the attitude. It's not a problem "we" fix by policing the behaviour of "cyclists".
How would you react if you were asked to justify everything you saw another driver or pedestrian do?
then falls on me to justify it.
No it doesn't. Stop thinking of everyone on a bike as a member of your group. Emphasise that it is a person on a bike. Do you justify the behaviour of every person driving a car? Every person on foot?
We are not a group.
What's with all the "stone cold" shit?
Sounds to me you take lifts with ignorant dickheads Pondo.
If they're your actual friends man up and sort out their attitudes.
Gotta agree with everything Bruce is saying here.
I genuinely believe the way I ride on the roads ie. wheelying, manualling, hopping kerbs, playing around and most important of all smiling and making eye contact with, thanking and greeting pedestrians and drivers when passing raises my image out of the "cyclist" group stereotype and humanises me more to onlookers.
It definitely gets me compliments and smiles back.
I genuinely believe the way I ride on the roads ie. wheelying, manualling, hopping kerbs, playing around and most important of all smiling and making eye contact with, thanking and greeting pedestrians and drivers when passing raises my image out of the “cyclist” group stereotype and humanises me more to onlookers.
It definitely gets me compliments and smiles back.
Honestly geex your brilliant 😁😁 I'd love to live in your fantastic world, but honestly it's one purely of your own invention or delusion, but either way it's brilliant 😎😎
Sorry Taxi. It's not a club 😉
But you already do live in my fantastic world. The more often you smile and acknowledge complete strangers and have fun the happier a place that world becomes.
You're deluded if you think otherwise.
Try it.
The more often you smile and acknowledge complete strangers and have fun the happier a place that world becomes.
I agree with you 100% on this and it's something I do aswell.
But people are conditioned to respond to a smile with a smile, probably an evolutionary thing. But after the smile which is a good thing, their still thinking "another t××t cyclist". 😁😁
I genuinely believe the way I ride on the roads ie. wheelying, manualling, hopping kerbs, playing around and most important of all smiling and making eye contact with, thanking and greeting pedestrians and drivers when passing raises my image out of the “cyclist” group stereotype and humanises me more to onlookers.
It definitely gets me compliments and smiles back.
You should try it on here as it seems to be the exact opposite of how you write...
No Kerley.
it's actually exactly how i write
😉
Whooooooooossshhhh!!!
But after the smile which is a good thing, their still thinking “another t××t cyclist”. 😁😁
Nah. They're generally thinking about having my babies for the rest of their week.
😉
it’s actually exactly how i write
It really isn't. In your head you may think it is but you cannot be the judge of how the 'style' you write in comes across to others. You can listen to the feedback that many have given or you can just ignore it and carry on writing in an inflammatory style but I can categorically tell you it is not a friendly and welcoming one.
The question I would love to ask of any parent of small children who’s ranting about cyclists, is who do you worry more about killing your children? A car driver or a bicycle rider?
You really think that when they see you wheelying they think 'oh, what a great guy!'
They actually think 'what a ****, ride properly'. At least, on our local community forums that's what they say when they see riders dicking about on roads.
They actually think ‘what a ****, ride properly’. At least, on our local community forums that’s what they say when they see riders dicking about on roads.
Clearly they've never witnessed the awesomeness of Geex
I'm not your "friend" Kerley. Infact you've categorically stated how much you dislike me. How I reply to you is 100% intentional in style.
Mokgrips? A local forum? Do you actually have no real life outside the Internet?
Keep the name calling up. Maybe one day you'll be brave enough to do it out loud... Eventually maybe even near another human being.
I’m not your “friend” Kerley. Infact you’ve categorically stated how much you dislike me. How I reply to you is 100% intentional in style.
I am not referring to replies to me, it is your replies to everyone and your general attitude. I didn't expect you to take the feedback well...
Mokgrips? A local forum? Do you actually have no real life outside the Internet?
Well it's the Facebook group for the area in which I live. There's a few posts a day, sometimes I read them. You really don't know as much about people or the internet as you think 🙂
Keep the name calling up. Maybe one day you’ll be brave enough to do it out loud… Eventually maybe even near another human being.
See above 🙂
Whooooooooosssshhh
I genuinely believe the way I ride on the roads ie. wheelying, manualling, hopping kerbs, playing around and most important of all smiling and making eye contact with, thanking and greeting pedestrians and drivers when passing raises my image out of the “cyclist” group stereotype and humanises me more to onlookers.
It definitely gets me compliments and smiles back.
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"They’re generally thinking about having my babies for the rest of their week."
They're surprisingly forward and it makes for quite a disruptive and distracting ride. But you should see him hand out his business cards while manuals one handed.
And playing along just reinforces the attitude. It’s not a problem “we” fix by policing the behaviour of “cyclists”.
I know "we" don't, but as there's one of "them" in here saying "he" can do what "he" wants as "no-one" knows if "his" actions are antagonistic or not, I thought I'd put forward the argument that "yes they are".
How would you react if you were asked to justify everything you saw another driver or pedestrian do?
How do you think I'd react?
No it doesn’t. Stop thinking of everyone on a bike as a member of your group. Emphasise that it is a person on a bike.
I do. But we can do all this "we're not a group" thing all we like, people still lump people on bikes together as cyclists.
Sounds to me you take lifts with ignorant dickheads Pondo.
If they’re your actual friends man up and sort out their attitudes.
What - wait! You're not making sweeping generalisations based on an incomplete understanding of the situation, are you? You just broke my irony meter.
I genuinely believe the way I ride on the roads ie. wheelying, manualling, hopping kerbs, playing around and most important of all smiling and making eye contact with, thanking and greeting pedestrians and drivers when passing raises my image out of the “cyclist” group stereotype and humanises me more to onlookers.
It definitely gets me compliments and smiles back.
Eye contact, smiling, thanking, totally agree - wheelying, manualling, hopping kerbs, you're wrong. But you sound pretty epic, wish we were friends.
I know “we” don’t, but as there’s one of “them” in here saying “he” can do what “he” wants as “no-one” knows if “his” actions are antagonistic or not, I thought I’d put forward the argument that“yes they are”
Where did I say I can do what I want?
None of you can say my actions have caused antaganism... You know why?
Because you haven't witnessed them. Not once.
wheelying, manualling, hopping kerbs, you’re wrong.
Oooohhh... That's that then.
But hold on! Again. you have absolutely no idea of how, where or in what circumstances I've done any of the death defying stunts you're apparently losing your shit over people you've never met seeing performed.
For me personally none of those maneuvers are any more difficult or dangerous than riding one handed to signal for a turn (which I do also perform if and when required). Assuming you were actually compitent at performing these basic skills too are you really saying they should never ever be used on a tarmac road? Like Never? Really?
May I ask why? Describing why in detail would be cool!
TBH I can think of a few bike accidents which could possibly have been avoided had the rider been able to compitently and confidently hop onto the safety of a kerb or over a tram line etc. rather than have their lives cut short under the wheels of a moving vehicle.