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They probably ride bikes better over there too TBF
Probably not aswell as you though eh geex.
Meeeeooowww
I'd just like to say I also don't want to be in this 'Cyclist' club. I'm quite happy obeying most of the rules of the road most of the time, and yet still just being a person on a bike.
If you choose to assume I'm a member of your club and my behaviour reflects on you then I'm sorry but that's your problem.
In my opinion, if you really want to make things safer, you'd be better off trying to persuade people who don't ride bikes that we are all individuals and there is no collective responsibility.
But if you want to try to make everyone who rides a bike live up to your standards then you go right ahead. I have no responsibility for your actions.
I don't get this. They're not personal standards, they're 'the rules of the road' mandated as in compulsory. If we start picking and choosing which or when regardless it must be OK for others (like drivers) to do the same. It only really works if we all stick to a common set of rules even if we don't necessarily agree with all of them.
The collective responsibility is that of road users. We just happen to sometimes do that riding bicycles.
And yet one of the most common arguments I hear against red light jumping from people who ride bikes is not that it's dangerous but that it gives 'us' a bad name.
Incidentally, would you say that the majority of road users stick to the rules of the road?
No 32 in a 30 zone?
No gently squeezing the accelerator to nip through before that amber turns to red?
Do you "get" that some of the rules are plain dangerous for people who are riding bikes?
Our road systems aren't designed with bike riders safety in mind.
simply look at some of the idiotic painted cycle lane BS for an easy example.
Just because something has rules that doesn't make it the best option.
Why have traffic lights at all? Removing them in Amsterdam actually reduced accidents and journey times
This guy puts it well
That vid above is very good and reminded me of the lights failing at a big junction near me a few weeks back. Suddenly everyone was pretty cautious, used some common sense and the junction was perfectly usable until they were repaired.
Anyway...
Was going to stay a new thread but here is a question!
I tend not to run reds on the bike. For various reasons... apart from one near me!
It controls a bus/taxi/bike lane merging onto a main road.
All is fine apart from the fact that a bike (carbon or alloy) will not make the friggin light change. I do reluctantly now ride through that on the red as there is effectively no choice unless I get off and walk the junction.
I can't even wait for a bus or taxi to come along (which would be a long wait at times!) as I am stopped over what must be the sensor in the road meaning that the bus/taxi isn't far enough over the pad to activate it?
I'm guessing there must be a lot of lights like this and so effectively you "force" a rider to run the red light. That p*sses me off as I would rather not be forced into running a red light because I have to. Effectively anyway.
Any of you experience this or does this light just not like my bimbling style?
I've been riding to work on my bicycle for the last thirteen years. Most days, not every day, but whenever necessary.
Before that i lived where i worked for two years.
Before that i rode to work on my bicycle for five years, and it was quite a long ride.
Before that there were times when i moved in all sorts of ways, sometimes i even had to ride motor vehicles of various proportions. But mostly i rode my bicycle when i had to get from here to there.
There is a particular part of my commute nowadays where i voluntarily leave the carriageway, cross a roundabout on the footpath, go the wrong way down a one way street, then rejoin the carriageway on the other side.
Basically i cut right through the middle of a large roundabout, with scant regard for the laws of the road within it.
In doing so, one realises one is being, in point of law, terribly naughty.
In reality i'm doing everyone a favour - the roundabout i'm avoiding in the process is one that, were i to be forced to ride it, would definitely be one where i'd have to take 'prime' on a looong sweep of road, backing up irate drivers behind me.
Instead i take a straight line through it - easing off if the footpath is occupied - i'm never in any particular hurry - and pick up the line on the other side.
Even though this is strictly speaking wrong, nobody could convince me that this is anything other than the right course of action, and i will keep on doing this until i no longer have to go there.
In reality i’m doing everyone a favour [by ignoring traffic rules]
This, so much!
Scene: large urban carriageways with very few pedestrians.
I sit in front of traffic at a red light, stopped, behaving myself. Then the light goes green and I set off. Initially I’m faster than cars but I can’t do 30mph so I usually hold up the traffic a bit (Until the next red light).
My waiting at the light doesn’t benefit me - it puts me closer to cars/trucks etc (all are potential dangers) and it slows me down.
My waiting at the light doesn’t benefit the drivers in the queue behind me - they’re forced to drive slower and forced (by the new Highway Code, apparently) to take care when they drive around me.
In fact, in the situations I’m talking about, I think cyclists should all jump red lights. I don’t, because I don’t want to add to the ridiculous stereotype and more importantly I don’t want to engender ire in the drivers who are soon to overtake me.
But if people actually thought about it, they’d be in favour of bikes jumping the odd red light. Big if...
This all smacks a bit of self justification; 'I'm really jumping the lights to help everyone else...'. Do people pick and choose which other laws they feel they should be subject to? You know, ignore the ones that are mebbies 'dangerous', silly or just a bit inconvenient?
The group you join by being a road user, is the 'road users group' (well duh!). It's a community that needs to observe a set of conventions to get along. Once we start picking and choosing which apply (or don't), it's open season for everyone else to do the same. Jumping lights, tailgating, close passing and generally being selfish oiks.
That's why I don't do it. Sorry if this comes over a bit self righteous...
I don’t consider myself a cyclist. Just someone who loves riding bikes and does it a lot
Maybe you should say you identify as a non cyclist then anybody calling you a cyclist will be discriminating against you 😂
You still haven't said if you think the majority of road users obey the rules all the time.
In fact, would you say you obey all the rules all the time?
Every single time I do it it’s safer than waiting at the lights.
Are we talking about crossing the line on red to get a better position, then waiting? Cos to me that still counts as stopping.
Running red lights is sailing through without a care cos you can't be bothered. Lots of that happens and I think that's what annoys drivers. Including me.
I should have put in a wee synopsis of what the guy says in the video to save people watching it.
When you're using the road, whether you are a pedestrian, cyclist or driver following the "rules" of the road change the way in which you think about other road users. When you see a green light changing to red the cyclist in front of you becomes an obstacle and not someone who is going to work or whatever. By removing traffic lights you force people to acknowledge each other other and give way, it's human nature to interact and facilitate the movement of people and that's exactly what happens.
People don't go all carmaggedon and kill as many people as they can on the way to work, instead they're more aware and vigilant of others around them. You'd think that traffic would grind to a standstill but the flow at junctions actually improves and there are less accidents!
I don't need laws to know how to be considerate and respectful to others, do you?
Here's one for your thoughts, if you can be arsed (common enough issues but they all seem to converge here):
https://www.google.com/maps/ @50.7953531,-1.0884954,151m/data=!3m1!1e3
If that link works, moving from bottom right to mid-left of screen is an urban DC, 30 limit with a dedicated bus/bike lane for the left lane.
Right lane is busy and runs at 30+ mph. Pavement is also often very busy.
Lights at the end are separate for each lane - the two "never" go green at the same time as this allows buses to get across and turn right at the roundabout.
Lights don't trip when a bike (or multiple bikes) arrives and never go green unless there's a big vehicle there - confirmed repeatedly (buses obvz have something dedicated to them, sensor or button, since pulling away from the bus stop 20 yards before the light triggers it almost immediately).
Right lane is kerbed on both sides and too narrow for safe overtaking; it's up a slight hill. Traffic on it would be moving at my speed for 50 yards minimum, more likely 100 as I approach and cross the lights
[Notice, by the way, that there's no cycle lane round the roundabout, though it restarts within 20 yards and there are no lane markings on the roundabout. No good reason for this, except maybe that cars like to cut the corner to keep their speed up. If I run the lights I reach the roundabout "with" the right hand lane and they are effectively encouraged to encroach into "my" lane around it.]
As I ride up to it in the bus/bike lane, if there are no buses around I CAN NOT get through the light without jumping it.
Some Options (there's no plausible/better alternative route):
Wait for a bus to pass each time and get in behind
Run the light in the LH lane
Ride up onto the pavement and round the roundabout that way
Move over to the RH lane as I approach, hoping that one of the drivers (moving at 30 and "might miss the lights") will let me in, then take the middle of the lane until I'm through
Ride all the way in the RH lane so I don't have to shove my way in towards the end
What's the best balance of not wasting my time, not getting hit by a car, not pissing off drivers about "cyclists", not pissing off pedestrains about "cyclists"?
No. Mokgrips.
It's not that black and white.
I'm not going to describe all 19 sets of lights.
But I assure you "sailing through with not a care" is not what I do. That would be incredibly stupid.
I know the signal pattern of each light I jump. Each light is ridden through based on many factors as each one is an entirely separate situation. All weighed up and carefully negotiated in the safest manner possible.
Are all the name callers out at B&Q / IKEA this morning under wives orders?
No still here watching your awesumness.
You're clearly still here 😉
Do people pick and choose which other laws they feel they should be subject to?
Most people use commonsense and ignore silly rules.
Most people use commonsense and ignore silly rules.
A good proportion of car drivers flagrantly breach even the sensible rules.
Some Options (there’s no plausible/better alternative route):
Wait for a bus to pass each time and get in behind
Run the light in the LH lane
Silly point, but, you know on a bicycle you "should" be on the outside edge of the roundabout all the way around? So to turn right there you should be in the left hand lane but following the signals for right turning traffic - they should be filter arrows not lighted lanes for exactly this reason you're right turning traffic regardless of road position - which, if I understand you correctly means you'd have the left hand lane to yourself?
Most of the time not cycling "like a car" eg sitting on the outside edge of roundabouts is daft if not dangerous but, on occasions such as properly lighted roundabouts, it can make sense.
By the same token I don't know the junction so it could be significantly worse and for what it's worth I'd be primary in the rh lane from what I can see.
As for lights that don't trigger, yeah there are a few of those on my commute depending on the route I take, one particularly I get off and use the pelican crossing which actually triggers fairly quickly after pressing the button. It would annoy the hell out of geex though as two of the four approaches to the lights are on sensors and the pelican crossing fires at next change rather than after approach X so there is no sequence to the lights. Equally there are a few on my route where it's certainly safe to pass through the red lights if you know the sequence (though the idea it might be safer to do so never occurred to me)
Most people use commonsense and ignore silly rules.
A good proportion of car drivers flagrantly breach even the sensible rules.
I think one genuinely tends to lead to the other and the later is certainly not just confined to people once they sit in a tin box.
There are plenty of seemingly normal people who turn into assholes when they get behind the wheel but there are a lot more who are just assholes all the time.
Most people use commonsense and ignore silly rules.
Oh, I see. I'll be sure to tell the tax man that when I fail to pay mine next Jan...
Does this equally apply to speeding etc that we all seem to regularly froth about on here or is it some other 'silly' rules?
Not sure when we were given the option to pick and choose?
Geex should team up with Sick bikes, their **** you attitudes align so well.
boblo, for the third time, do you think the majority of road users obey the rules?
No one obeys all the rules all the time.
I actually find myself agreeing with much of what geex is saying, although I do consider how others may perceive my actions and then, inevitably, form prejudices against cyclists (whether or not I consider myself one).
There's still a sequence DB.
You simply have to pay attention to the pedestrians read their body language and pre-empt their actions.
It's not difficult
I actually enjoy figuring stuff out rather than following rules blindly.
I've never once been annoyed by a traffic light system while on a bike (unlike so many people in cars).
Having the freedom to choose what I do when faced with a red coloured light means I am in far more control of the situation a d its outcome.
Its quite odd the way complete strangers on here assume your mood and emotions from reading basic matter of fact replies.
I wouldnt come to a website at all if for some strange reason doing so upset or annoyed me.
As for sick bicycles.
It seems everyone here is on the verge of orgasm over their every action.
I on the other hand couldn't care less.
One look at the frames tells me I have zero interest in their products.
You simply have to pay attention to the pedestrians read their body language and pre-empt their actions.
It’s not difficult
These days most are reading their phones. I could probably tell you more accurately if they're Instagraming tweeting or WhatsApping than if they're about to step blindly into the road but hey, that's my trouble to worry about.
You're right though there is a sequence and from one of the 4 approaches if traffic on another is beyond the stop line it's about discernable but, given they're sensored and from the other three you can only see two out of the three approaches it's really not possible to judge. The pedestrians are a red herring, they're easy, of there are some at any of the crossings it'll light pedestrian next (assuming they pressed the button obviously)
Don't hold back now.
do tell us where this thoroughly exciting conundrum of a junction is so I can book a holiday inn nearby and study it.
Seriously though. A pedestrain green man going the same way as I'm intending to go (or across it) and I'm fairly confident I can contunue safely and courteously on my way inconveniencing no noe and avoiding traffic enveloping me and depending on which direction is green for traffic it's not going to be difficult to know which part of the sequence is safe to do the same on.
obviously not knowing the junction in question these are not absolute solutions. but you probably get the idea. Let's not discuss the one junction in question any further though. it's kinda dull.
Pedestrians I pass are very rarely on their phones.
I occasionally am though. hands free of course. 😉
"You simply have to pay attention to the pedestrians read their body language and pre-empt their actions.
It’s not difficult"
Geex may not be the best advocate when it comes to considering others 😉 but his principle is right as he's paying attention to other people and is prepared to act accordingly to avoid a collision, rather than blindly following automated instructions which may result in putting himself and others in unnecessary danger.
It's one instance where anarchy demonstrably works!
I occasionally am though
Monster! Won't somebody think of the children!
BruceWee
Member
boblo, for the third time, do you think the majority of road users obey the rules?
I'm sorry, I didn't realise that question was for me. Probably not but why does that matter?
You are responsible for what you do not what the others do. That's the 5 year olds playground defence....
I probably don't always obey the rules but I try to and try not to drive (or cycle) like an annoying twit. I'm sure I don't always succeed but I generally don't go out of my way to blatantly disregard the rules we're supposed to stick to.
Where on earth do you get that anyone here is riding like an "annoying twit"?
I take full responsibility for all my actions while riding anywhere.
Doesn't mean I'm ever going to blindly follow these rules you deem so precious.
This all smacks a bit of self justification; ‘I’m really jumping the lights to help everyone else…’
Yeah, I agree. And you'll note I said I don't jump the lights. I just think it's daft when car drivers start frothing at the mouth about it, when not only is it not inconveniencing them, it's actually helping them out most of the time. And it seems to be car drivers who are most outraged, not pedestrians. I don't think the drivers actually care about the pedestrian safety aspects. They just feel an unjustified sense of outrage.
I love how geex thinks we're all stupid, then talks up the common sense abilities of the general public.
Since when does the general public have any common sense?
A pedestrain green man going the same way as I’m intending to go (or across it) and I’m fairly confident I can contunue safely and courteously on my way inconveniencing no noe and avoiding traffic enveloping me and depending on which direction is green for traffic it’s not going to be difficult to know which part of the sequence is safe to do the same on.
Are you saying that you go through pedestrian green men?
I think he meant if you approach a t junction on the major road and it's red, but the pedestrian crossing on the minor road is green then it's potentially totally safe safe to carry on.
There's one like that on my commute, the pavement is actually a cycle path so I could in fact hop on and ride legally. But usually I go through the red and exit via the pedestrian crossing as the cyclepath improves on the other side.
Here's a question, what's the legality of entering a cycle lane with a solid white line on a bike? Because entering the bike lane before the junction would involve doing that which actually means I'd be breaking the law either way (unless I stop for the red obviously).
It's really not about the 'law' it's about the social contract. Road users agree to follow a certain set of customs and trust that other users do too, so that we can get to our destination in one piece, also having not suffered the trauma of damaging someone else.
Picking and choosing which rules, or customs, to follow eats away at that social contract, increasing the chances that other users will decide to do the same.
The pedestrian who has to dodge the cyclist (or several) riding through the crossing on the red becomes the driver who doesn't give the cyclist they are passing enough room. Yes the potential consequences are much worse for a car hitting a bike than a bike hitting a ped. but that's not how the social contract works.
For the record every statistic Ive ever seen shows bikes and cars break the law about the same percentage. Or to put it another way, people follow the social contract about the same no matter what they are piloting.
Picking and choosing which rules, or customs, to follow eats away at that social contract, increasing the chances that other users will decide to do the same.
Everyone is already picking and choosing which rules to follow.
Look at just trying to nip through on amber, for example. It's blatantly against the rules but enough people do it that it's become 'just one of those things'.
The fact that it's vastly more dangerous for other road users than a cyclist going through a red light (even the ones who cruise through seemingly oblivious to everything round about them) shows that the concerns people have for people on bikes jumping red lights have little to do with safety and more with perceptions and customs.