Have we done ABS brakes on bikes?

But how would I do cool skids?

But how would I do cool skids?

Jam your heel into the back tyre. Don't they teach that in school these days?

It will be the same argument as when first seen on cars. I can stop just as quickly without them because of my great driving skills. Then in every single test (possibly bar ice/snow) the ABS car completely trounces the non ABS car.

An ABS bike will be able to stop more quickly. Not a requirement for me and my riding but could be useful for a lot of scenarios.

The big feature of ABS in a car is the ability to steer around an obstacle while braking to the limit.
How well does this work on a loose surface on a bicycle (or m/cycle if you have that experience) without you ending up in the dirt?

Off road it wont work properly. I have ABS on my KTM motorbike - great and effective on the road, off road it does not work. As such KTM have a button that turns it off for off road use.

There was a short thread about it a while back - https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/new-shimano-groupset-features-anti-lock-brakes/

My intiial thought was its fine on tarmac as its more consistent, but when the grip changes within centimetres it loses all benefits (although maybe the opposite is true, and its exactly because of the inconsitencies it is more beneficial).

Off road it wont work properly

Steve Jones from EMBN, a very talented and fast rider, has been using it and says its just about the best thing he's ever tried on a mountain bike. Up there with suspension and disk brakes as game changers. I remember the resistance when those things came in too.

Does indeed sound impressive. I wonder if it will be tested by some pros for racing.

ABS is brilliant stuff and it improves braking in almost every scenario (I work in brakes design for a car manufacturer).

BUT it deskills the art of driving/riding: whether that matters to you is a personal choice.

I have a kitcar without ABS and I'm not gonna rush to get ABS fitted. I like having to think and handle the car properly. I suspect I would/do feel the same about riding my bike. I like being skilled at it and I wouldn't want to hand over any of that task.

Do rally cars have ABS? if they do, how do they cope with the different surfaces seen on the same stages?

Anyone able to find a picture of those abs cantis from some time in the 90s?

found it

Up there with suspension and disk brakes as game changers.

Well, this will be great for certain kinds of riding - but suspension benefits more users I reckon and discs basically everyone.

As suspension and disk brakes are game changers, do they not also play a part in de-skilling riding ability? Does anyone care if they do?

Surely skill has to be put within the context of the speeds / terrain that these tehcnical advances allow you to ride at? If you're 'pushing your limit' on whatever bike you have (whether that be rigid singlespeed with canti brakes or full sus with ABS disck brakes) the level of skill required is still going to be at 'max', but perhaps slightly different to deal with the different forces you're in control of.

do they not also play a part in de-skilling riding ability?

No. Discs work the same as cantis but better and more consistently so it's the same but better. Suspension changes the skills though. You still have to pick lines etc but you have to pick different ones on the same trail, and you are (or should be) going much faster so on trails where you would be avoiding rocks on a rigid bike you could be for example looking for berms or lips to jump etc. Completely different experience in that respect.

Yours sincerely,

Molgrips

Rigid bike rider, Short travel FS rider, Long travel FS rider

The big feature of ABS in a car is the ability to steer around an obstacle while braking to the limit.

True, but cars don't generally slide out from under you if you lock the brakes. Like it or not, getting people out of cars is going to involve a lot of people on bikes that we wouldn't regard as "proper cyclists" - the sort of people who when things go wrong in traffic will follow their instincts and grab the brakes in a vice grip. If they don't end up sliding along the road, I can see this being a good thing.

pandhandj
Free Member

Do rally cars have ABS? if they do, how do they cope with the different surfaces seen on the same stages?

Not in WRC at least, it's banned in the regs.

When it was allowed it worked very well and as far as i remember everybody used it because it was quicker.

everybody used it because it was quicker

Absolutely true and it's the same in all motorsport. If you can deskill the task of driving the car, and leave the driver with a lower workload, then you will probably be faster.

But look what's happened in Formula 1 - so much technology that it's become dull to watch and faster. They've banned some of the technology but races are won or lost by the Engineering department not by the driver, on the race track.

I'd rather that didn't happen to me. I ride fast enough and I enjoy the workload necessary to ride like that. I don't just want to go faster everywhere but YMMV :o)

be interesting to give it a go, but there is a shitload of other stuff I'd spend money on first.

Was this a problem which needed solution? I can't think of many situations where having ABS would've made the difference between a stop and a crash. Usually by the time I'm in the situation where I'm needing (or at least automatically reaching for) a fistfull of brake lever, having ABS would make naff all difference in terms of impact speed.

Is it an ebike thing? You're always able to accelerate faster and harder, so in some situations, being able to stop faster would be better?

Daffy
Full Member

Was this a problem which needed solution? I can’t think of many situations where having ABS would’ve made the difference between a stop and a crash. Usually by the time I’m in the situation where I’m needing (or at least automatically reaching for) a fistfull of brake lever, having ABS would make naff all difference in terms of impact speed.

Is it an ebike thing? You’re always able to accelerate faster and harder, so in some situations, being able to stop faster would be better?
Posted 5 minutes ago

I've had a near crash where it would have helped.

Last run for the day, I hit a couple of steep-ish downhills then a fast sweeping right turn with trees on the outside.

I realised I had way too much speed, and I grabbed a bit too much front brake. Surface was loose stones and roots, and as soon the front wheel was locked, the bike straight-lined which put me on a path right towards headbutting a tree at approx 25 mph.

Took all of my will power to force my hand to let go of that brake and get the wheel turning again so I could get the bike turned. Every instinct was telling my to squeeze the brake more!

Very very scary, and I still have nightmares about it to this day!

I had a BMW motorcycle with ABS you could still turn the bike when the abs kicked in

True, but cars don’t generally slide out from under you if you lock the brakes.

True. You just zoom headlong into a ditch.

JAG

Absolutely true and it’s the same in all motorsport. If you can deskill the task of driving the car, and leave the driver with a lower workload, then you will probably be faster.

But look what’s happened in Formula 1 – so much technology that it’s become dull to watch and faster. They’ve banned some of the technology but races are won or lost by the Engineering department not by the driver, on the race track.

I’d rather that didn’t happen to me. I ride fast enough and I enjoy the workload necessary to ride like that. I don’t just want to go faster everywhere but YMMV :o)

Literally couldn't have picked a worse time to say that about F1 lol, almost every race for the last two/three years has been a banger!

Agree about the workload thing though, I ride my bike for enjoyment, getting the braking perfect is part of that enjoyment, same as picking a good line, timing a gearchange just right etc.

Do rally cars have ABS? if they do, how do they cope with the different surfaces seen on the same stages?

I remember reading a car magazine article back in the late 1980s when 4WD turbo hot hatches were just starting to take over. I don't remember which manufacturer it was, but someone released their new hot hatch and rounded up some rally drivers and journalists to drive it round some gravel roads to show off how potent it was. The rally drivers weren't used to ABS on their race cars so they all struggled because they were used to just stamping on the brakes and flicking the car sideways into corners, but the ABS made it impossible to lock the wheels.

However, that was 35 years ago and the manufacturers will have figured out how to program the systems for different surfaces. I'm pretty sure that rally teams would all use ABS if it was permitted - if they couldn't program it to work optimally in mixed conditions, they'd probably have the co-driver change modes as needed.

I could see it making descending on a bike much faster because you could brake much later with confidence. You'd need to do some practice runs to find the optimum braking point for each corner, but after that, you'd just haul on the brakes as hard as you can and let the ABS take care of things.

I suspect it's probably going to be popular with the same sort of person who likes e-bikes. I'm not evangelizing about the skills/fitness needed to ride a bike, but to me my whole hobby is intrinsically about the challenge, which is why I've probably had so many rigid singlespeeds as well.

Others just want to do fast laps of a trail center a few times a month, and will enjoy anything that makes that faster. Which is fine. I mean objectively e-bikes and ABS will have a much better cost/benefit than upgrading from Deore to XTR, a £5k e-bike is objectively a much better bike than a £5k trail bike when compared to the ~£1500 entry level to the same range.

But look what’s happened in Formula 1 – so much technology that it’s become dull remained just as dull to watch and faster.

F1 races have been dull for decades. To make them thrilling, you'd need to reduce the downforce by about 90% but then they'd be really slow.

Is it an ebike thing?

Pretty sure it is, yep!

Others just want to do fast laps of a trail center a few times a month, and will enjoy anything that makes that faster.

will it make the braking bumps better or worse?

thisisnotaspoon

I suspect it’s probably going to be popular with the same sort of person who likes e-bikes.

Certainly one type of eBike rider**... and I guess it will pair well with a suspension saddle/seatpost as well.

**usually seen riding a long travel EEB around an XC type trail centre

Back in about 2006-2008 everyone was whinging that dropper posts were “deskilling” riders and they’d never get one “well maybe if I did the Megavalanche, but I’d take it back off afterwards” and now look at us all, nearly all of have one.
And people were often quite aggressive and militant about their opinions of them

The same was said about about disc brakes and I assume suspension (but that was before my time as I didn’t buy a decent MTB until the late 90s).

In 10 years when it’s proven it’s benefits and is cheaper a lot of the people on here complaining will probably have it on their bikes.

I’ve only got a car/van that has ABS in the last 4 or 5 years and it’s taken a while to relearn not to cadence brake and rely on the ABS but I’m a convert (just need to get the hang of Traction control/electronic stability platform systems now #motoring luddite).

I love blasting around in old sporty cars without it (Caterham, Mk1Golf, GTi, etc) but for every day I’m converted.

Daffy. I have seen a pal crash because he wasn't confident in using the front brake and locked up the rear. I have also had somone run into me from behind because he couldn't use the brakes properly when i did a hard stop. ABSwould have prevented both

It always puzzles me that practicing hard braking is not something mtbers do.

In 10 years when it’s proven it’s benefits and is cheaper a lot of the people on here complaining will probably have it on their bikes.

Unlike suspension or disks, I can't see that being the case.

Because these systems rely on some degree of power to function. You couldn't run ABS without a battery (presumably quite a bit more than Di2) , so it's going to be contained to e-bikes.

It also depends how clever the system is, the basic motorcycle system only works in a straight line, it's only the last few years that "cornering ABS" has been a thing. So that's a whole load more sensors that would be needed to make it even applicable to trail centers let alone loose surfaces.

@tjagain. Just having ABS likely wouldn’t have prevented either crash. It’s not a time machine. Reaction time and traction are still the biggest factors.

As someone with an old car, the most common things that go wrong with it are not the parts that allow it to function, but the sensors which report on how it’s behaving. They’re both expensive and prone to faults. Do you really want/need this on a bicycle?

Just having ABS likely wouldn’t have prevented either crash. It’s not a time machine. Reaction time and traction are still the biggest factors.

A lot of people are afraid to use the front brake properly, they think they'll crash if they do. For rental bikes ridden by beginners, ABS sounds like a great idea.

If I was running a bike skills course for beginners, I'd start them out on an ABS equipped bike to show them how powerful the front brake can be, then switch them to a regular bike to practice modulating the brake.

Up there with suspension and disk brakes as game changers. I remember the resistance when those things came in too.

That's the second time in a week that someone has referred to "resistance" to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don't recall any of that.

Daffy. I have seen a pal crash because he wasn’t confident in using the front brake and locked up the rear. I have also had somone run into me from behind because he couldn’t use the brakes properly when i did a hard stop. ABSwould have prevented both

It always puzzles me that practicing hard braking is not something mtbers do.

Basing all the below on the assumtion, from the OPs link that the brakes are still indipendently controlled front and rear, would ABS really have prevented these two crashes?

In the first case, if someone is incorrectly afraid of the front brake then they wont use it in a panic/emeregency. Yes they wouldn't have skidded the rear but how much extra stopping power would they have got out of an ABS rear? enough to save them?

In the second, how hard did you brake (with your regular brakes) for the person behind to be unable to match you? If he was just wanging the brakes on full power with ABS without the correct technique of heel dropping and bracing (not locking) his elbows - and ideally, the seat being down to aid both of these - then the greatest automatic brakes in the world would do naff all apart from send him into you head first rather than wheel first...

On your last point - yes, some of us do practise. I think, depending on how you define it.

My local trails, I'm experimenting on how hard and late I can brake, along with leaning, body position and so on. Not to mention also trying to improve on flow/line choices.

So in that way I am practising it. I'm not, for example, going to a grassy slope and doing runs up and down to find the limit.

Now, I'm not against it. If I could have a fleet of money no object wunderbikes and an uninterupted worldwide playground to enjoy them on, then an ABS equipped long travel ebike would be part of that fleet.

That’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.

both of these are before my time for MTBs. But look to the road world in the last few years for aggressive and often illogical anti disk sentiment.

I have though been around long enough to remember the anti dropper sentiment. Now I wasnt an early adopter, and it helps if you were riding with people of the same mindset/budget who also didn't have them.
But some people on the internet were against them specifically for the reason of them making it easier, as if the behind saddle, gangly limbs pose was the pinnacle of off roading purity.

As an aside, the last holdouts on droppers who may have had a point are XC racers - as the reliability and weight issues may well have in some cases been worth handicapping your bike handling ability.
Watching the world cup XC, both Rob and Bart call them telescopic seatposts, never using the term dropper. I wonder if there was a bit of a re-brand to get them accepted in this arena?

That’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.

Fifteen to 20 years ago, these forums were full of people denouncing all the new "fads". Disk brakes were unnecessary and too heavy, hydraulic disk brakes were too complicated and cable brakes were more reliable, suspension was heavy, sapped your energy, and was just a skills compensator, tubeless tyres were a solution looking for a problem, and tyres wider than 1.95 were too draggy. People used to run their tyres at 40 psi and swore it was faster than dropping pressures. 9 speed was seen as a step too far (too be fair, the best 8-speed stuff shifted amazingly). XC bikes back then were basically gravel bikes now and a 6" travel fork weighed 5 pounds.

That’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.

Then you weren't there or on internet forums at the time. There was absolutely loads of resistance. The Vees vs disks debate was particularly enthusiastic.

That’s the second time in a week that someone has referred to “resistance” to the introduction of suspension and disk brakes. I really don’t recall any of that.

+1

My brother got a flex stem back in the 80s and suddenly he was faster than me on anything rough - complete no brainer. Don't recall resistance to suspension at all, nor disc brakes (except on road bikes).

Then you weren’t there or on internet forums at the time.

Suspension was pre forums - bar Usenet. Was still on 64 kb dial up when suspension forks started appearing....

Fifteen to 20 years ago, these forums were full of people denouncing all the new “fads”. Disk brakes were unnecessary and too heavy, hydraulic disk brakes were too complicated and cable brakes were more reliable

I've been on this forum for 18 years - I don't remember any of that, even at the start. My 2004 ETSX had Mono M4s and 200/180 rotors.

suspension was heavy, sapped your energy, and was just a skills compensator, tubeless tyres were a solution looking for a problem, and tyres wider than 1.95 were too draggy.

All of this was then, and still is true*.

9 speed was seen as a step too far

9Sp XTR was the APEX of shifting. If they'd have thought to do wide range...my gosh we'd have never moved on.

*this is all situation dependent.

Then you weren’t there or on internet forums at the time. There was absolutely loads of resistance. The Vees vs disks debate was particularly enthusiastic.

i think some of those arguments are still running on MTBR..