[Closed] Have skills courses become the latest de rigueur accessory?

The analogy with golf is very flawed.

Golf is very much more a mental game than riding a bike.

Sure you may hit mental barriers when faced with a drop off, but with golf you face mental barriers on every shot, increasingly so as the number of hazards in front of you increase. Plus you have the frustrations when you play a bad shot, etc.

Because golf is a static game you have to play the game of trying to keep your mind under control - the classic left/right idea where the right side of the mind is the one that can do the action, but the left side is the critical one and you fight to keep the left side quiet.

Tennis is somewhat similar as you have a fair bit of time between shots to think and it is one of the reasons tennis player grunt so much, to keep themselves occupied with a 1-2 thought process.

Squash is correspondingly less similar as the time between shots is less, meaning your brain has less time to get in the way.

Mountain biking may have some of these elements, but it is much more about forcing yourself to commit to something.

Skiing is similar to mountain biking - faced with a steep slope you have to force yourself to commit to it, to moving your weight into the turn, through that little 'window' that is just in front of your downhill boot.

The differences are one of the reasons I gave up golf and took up mountain biking. It is massively less frustrating than golf, or tennis, which means that you can actually enjoy several hours on a bike and not suffer any of the frustrations of golf.

But then again cleaning the ball out the centre of my 1988 Hogan Apex redlines is a pretty good feeling...

Just smooth, flowing and relaxed

that is the reason I went for a course with Jedi, you should see him flowing down some tight turns in some singletrack - super smooth and way faster than it looks.

It all comes from correct bike positioning, correct foot/pedal placement, correct braking technique, correct 'looking'.

The footwork/body positioning aspect is very like skiing and edge control, apart from your body weight positioning being a bit different as you are loading just one edge (the tyre), not two, and the grip profiles of dirt and snow are different.

I want to know what these 'bad habits' are that people keep going on about

A fair number of people descend with their weight on the back wheel because that's how their mates told them to do it.

Turnerguy doesn't matter a jot if you can't disengage from work.

what a touchy thread, a few people seem quite offended, and immature, lol no suprise there then.. I dont need to prove anything to anyone as I have at no point implied I am gods gift at anything... it's impossible to have any other point of view on this forum without people getting upset and offended about their kn0b size... If a skills course works for you then that's fine, good luck to youif you need it for your type of riding... tbh my job entails way more risk and exertion and education than riding a bike which seem like a relitavely un complex skill set to me...unless you are Danny MacAsgill....oh and I do have a few bad habits when riding, i pick my nose and smoke the odd ciggy!

Its like driving. You can ALWAYS improve from advanced handling tuition of course. However its a question of where do you stop and where are you happy?

I'm happiest on singletrack that flows. I don't give a **** about murdering and jumping a DH course. 🙂

i pick my nose and smoke the odd ciggy!

whilst riding downhill? now that's a skill 😀

It's good to get the pov of some instructors on here, I had one a couple of years ago, it was very useful, rather than hitting the ST we spent a lot of time doing basic bike control skills, track stands, endos, hops, manuals, seatpost position, foot position, stuff you don't stop and practice yourself.

Turnerguy doesn't matter a jot if you can't disengage from work.

doubt that is the problem - I would bet that I am more of a workaholic than you - ask my wife 🙁

Maybe try a course with Jedi - read his blog pages with people taking on his northshore - not that you would get me doing that...

Who'd have thought that skills training was some sort of mountain biking class warfare issue. I'm mystified - if people want to learn to ride their bike better and enjoy themselves more as a result, what's the problem?

..we spent a lot of time doing basic bike control skills, track stands, endos, hops, manuals, seatpost position, foot position, stuff you don't stop and practice yourself

quite offended, and immature, lol

ROFL LMFAO etc etc etc

Who'd have thought that skills training was some sort of mountain biking class warfare issue. I'm mystified - if people want to learn to ride their bike better and enjoy themselves more as a result, what's the problem?

This is STW old boy, of course there is a problem.

Good to see the "Gods of Riding" are in fine form again.

I had a half day coaching session with Steve Mayer in Whistler (it was a birthday present, and a damn fine one too). I found it incredibly useful and learned a lot, it was also extremely enjoyable. Unlike some on here I freely admit that there are MANY areas I can improve in. Some such as fitness and stamina I can address myself. Others such as technical skills, confidence and general tips from a more proficient rider I could pick up from coaching. A course with Jedi is on the "to do" list when I eventually get round to it.

shalarim - Member

Phil where/which course you on I found one site offering courses in swinley but they never appear to have any dates

hey dude, sorry about the delayed reply... mrsconsequence travelled up to herts to spend a day with jedi, i've not heard many good things at all about some of the training offered at swinley... i think (could very well be wrong) that one of the local cycling clubs offers training there, not heard or read any positive reviews.... in fact have heard that the local coaches have been for training with other well known coaches! if it was me... i'd just go straight to the top, any forum search will quickly identify a certain chap (jedi) and other names that are worth checking out 🙂

someone mentioned a coach moving to swinley earlier on in the thread... heard nothing about him so please dont think i'm slating that particular coach! he could be awesome for all i know 🙂

Hi Phil

Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, Leon is a great coach and was only operating at Swinley for a short time. He has no connection whatsoever, with any other training providers based at Swinley, and has only ever received positive feedback. -

http://mountainbikeinstructorleonmaclean.blogspot.com/

beanieripper - Member
what a touchy thread, a few people seem quite offended, and immature, lol no suprise there then..

See, I aspire to be a better rider and a better troll. Sometimes you can learn from people that are better than you at something... other times you can learn from people that are worse...

I did a skills course because I only started mountain biking at 40 with some road fitness but zero bike skills. Because as a kid our bikes were my family's only form of transport they'd been simply a mechanism of getting from A to B, all serious stuff and not for fun at all, oh no, certainly not! As a result I got to adulthood without having the skill to bump up a kerb. The real basics were missing. Skills course taught me front wheel lifts, drop offs, moving my weight backwards and forwards, and I get a lot more fun out of riding now, as I don't end up off and pushing when things get a little rocky. Now I know the basics I take time to practice while I'm out and about, focusing on keeping these fresh.

I don't believe it!
Pretty new to mountain biking (at mature age :wink:) got my first decent bike last year, Mrs astounded at the cost.
She continued to be astonished at the regular 'cost' occasions my new hobby seemed littered with.
Then out of the blue she coughs up a big wedge of money to buy me a voucher for a skills course for me birthday! This, while I'm still trying to negotiate funds for repairs/tyres/pads/fashion accessories etc etc.
Women!!

Still, am looking forward to the course though 😛

Perhaps there's a correlation between the age people started riding, and those who feel they need a course?

I can appreciate those who might have ventured into the world of mountain bikes (perhaps from a roadie background, or just pootling to the shops) might feel the need to go on courses, to bring their skills up to scratch. Other started learning bike skills from their childhood, so 20/30/40 years down the line is seems natural.

There seems to be a general agreement that Jedi / Cambell / Oxley / etc are very good at what they do.

WTF not? are you too embarrassed to practice these simple skills outside your own house? if so I find that quite sad (seems pretty normal around here though)

???????? of course not, I merely meant that time on the bike was automatically spent hitting the trails and putting the miles in, rather than just practicing skills.

Perhaps there's a correlation between the age people started riding, and those who feel they need a course

Not my experience - i'd been riding for nearly 20 years before i had the chance to experience some coaching. Can say for me it was quick way to move off the plateau i was on. Made me a better rider than Beanieripper so well worth it.

All top sportsmen, whatever the sport have coaches (as long as their is enough money in the sport to financially provide them). Most will have been picked up as promising youngsters and put into training schemes where they received coaching from an early age to build them into the world beaters they now are, they will all have natural talent by the bucket load, but still needed the coaching to bring them to the top.
If it helps them, I am sure as hell it can help me too, and if your taking Danny Mac as an example, just think how good he could have been 😉

rewski - When you take up mountain biking, aren't you trying to embrace it for all that it is?

Many would consider the practise time outside your house as an important part as being out on the trail.

If you can make time for forums in evenings and skills courses, you can make time for practising skills outside your house.

I think skills course just help because the time is being set aside for the practise, appointments you're obliged to make. Rather than sitting comfy in a chair at home, thinking about practising, then bottling it due to lack of motivation. 20 minutes out of your TV/forums evening time is nothing and is far more relaxing/rewarding than the above.

Plus if you spend the time learning to do the basics well, the trails will be more rewarding.

You get out what you put in, IMO, skills courses are just an obligation to put the time in.

MSP - Coaching at the top level in MTB IMO does not involve skills training, simply psychological and fitness training. To be at the top of your game in any sport, it takes a combination of the best natural ability and the determination. Coaches can't help with the natural ability, can only help with the determination.

If you want to take other sports, what separates messi from 99.999% of footballer from the rest, natural ability, of which cannot be taught. The same would go for sam hill, steve peat etc.

i'd hope that a big part of the training i'm booked on will have a big psychological element! any training should have surely?

one of my biggest skills gaps on a bike is psychological.... confidence mainly. same went for mrsconsequence, a jedi day has sorted that right out 🙂

???????? of course not, I merely meant that time on the bike was automatically spent hitting the trails and putting the miles in,

GW - same here, bikes are toys, play things. if im on a bike, i wont be stting on it pedalling unless it's up hill.

Just need to build this "play" mentality into every moment you're on a bike and the skills will soon come.

sitting on a bike, pedalling ain't fun.

If you want to take other sports, what separates messi from 99.999% of footballer from the rest, natural ability, of which cannot be taught. The same would go for sam hill, steve peat etc.

Natural ability can't be taught, but it can be enhanced. I bet Messi has spent thousands of hours practising taking free kicks from hundreds of angles, trying different things both with a coach and without. When he was younger coaches will have had him practice kicks using boring drills that he would have just not done left to his own devices, no top football player would get to the top without coaching. MTB doesn't have the financial clout to provide the coaching to navigate the promising youngsters to the top, if it did the skills at the top level would be even higher than it is now.

GW - exactly the same as me... apart from the skids, as I like my tyres 8)

See how long you can remain stationary with a trackstand (useful at the lights)... see how far you can wheelie..one handed.. or no footed... see how far you can pull stoppies down the hill...no-footed stoppies....

The skills you can practise just riding to the shops for the sunday paper is endless...

i'm off today so will be riding as always 🙂
gw, see you later in the month i hope if i can get up to ya

That kind of skill seems pretty useless on the trail though..

sitting on a bike, pedalling ain't fun.

I used to spend quite alot of my riding time manualling a bmx round a local supermarket carpark, along with similar stunts. It was lots of fun, but I havent done it for years.

All I do now is sit on my bike and pedal and have no fun. I dont know whats happened.

I've not read much of the above. IMO the demographic on this site probably lends to coaching/training. The older you get the harder it is to learn new skills so the more help you can get the better. Also people here also have disposable income so need to spend it some where.

When your a kid you learn from getting out riding, riding with others better than yourself etc. You also learn from your mistakes and as a kid that might just mean a bruise. When your middle aged etc that can mean a broken bone.

Cool Tony, just let me know when. 8)

Interesting topic. First off, I know the OP, and I can assure anyone on here it's a genuine topic and it has raised decent responses so far. I've been on two coaching session over the last 3 years when I started riding again. I found one beneficial, as it really pushed me further than I though. But the biggest improvements have come about riding with faster guys, watching them and asking them how they do things.

But back to the original point, I have seen an increase in conversation amongst fellow riders about going on coaching courses, and most aren't sure why they want too. Want to get faster, want to have more fun, but you need to define it. I'm shite at cornering fast, and can't really jump with confidence, so those would be the things I'd need to work on first.

But the biggest improvements have come about riding with faster guys, watching them and asking them how they do things.

Free weekly skills course.

[b]@ _tom_ [/b]

Trackstands are a very useful skill out 'on the trails', same goes for bunny hops (ever come across a fallen tree in your path, and have to slow down to a snails pace to ride over it? Wish you could hop over it and maintain speed?).

Doing stoppies sharpens your front brake skills, including weight distribution with the back wheel in the air. J-turns (180 degree curved stoppie) are great for learning how to corner while under heavy front braking... and yes, before people shout "you should brake before you enter the corner" there are times when you need to.

Wheelies.. ever lifted your front wheel up to avoid a puddle, but had to drop it back down a split second later? Pop up the front wheel and you can wheelie through streams/large puddles, without getting soaked (if you don't want to).

More and more trail centres feature man-made obstacles (skinnys seem to be popular - Gisburn has a long skinny log, Grizedale North Face Trail has quite a few skinnys too). By learning to ride along the very narrow white markers in a car park, you will learn precision slow speed bike control.

Messing about in a car park for 20mins is actually quite beneficial for gaining skills to take off-road...

mark b .... your the only person sad enough to actually think your a better rider than someone youve never met....shows how silly you are. you know what, you may well be a better rider than me..who knows..who cares..wave your kn0b elsewhere..

There are a lot of snobs on STW who also are very jealous sounding - Who knew.

There was a comment about bad habits, so I will try to explain a few things Stuart at forest freeride picked up on when I spent a day with him:

* Understanding causes of the "The Fear", its associations with events, other riders and the environment. How it impacts your body dynamics, and hence your riding ability. How the mind game impacts the physical game.

* Dropping my rear foot a bit when descending. I thought I was keeping my pedals level, but when descending I tend(ed) to drop my rear foot, raising my lead foot. This creates balance problems from the rearward bias and also caused the bike to slightly track to one side under braking.

* Looking too near. I still struggle with this a bit esp. when tired. But looking all the way forward to where you want to be and beyond obstacles is key. I practice this a lot - looking at the exit/braking zone creates the psychological conditions to let go of the brakes and go.

* Linking obstacles into longer sections. Rather than braking before each obstacle, looking to the end of the sequence and riding the whole lot brakes off.

* Braking unnecessarily - Understanding why even light braking impacts balance, suspension and traction just when you need these to be at their highest.

* leaning off the back of the bike unnecessarily - why it can create balance problems and loss of control.

* The dangers of fast rolling drops - how pre-jumping and pushing the bike keeps it level for a smooth landing - still a work in progress for non-rollable drops.

It may be obvious to you, but I really didn't get any of this stuff until it was explained, demonstrated and practiced.

finally some sense on the last page from GW and a couple of others. bikes are for messing around and playing on, if you want to improve your skills you need to build that into your mentality. don't just blindly follow the guy/girl in front and ride the trail exactly how they do, look for challenges & stuff to pop off - even if its crap and you get 2" of air, you're still going to be improving your skills and learning how your bike feels underneath you.

someone said they simply don't practice manuals, track stands, endos, hops etc when they go out on their bike because they want to 'hit the trail' or 'put some miles in'. well, what about when you arrive at the car park before you set off, or when you have to stop for gates to be opened?? stuff like that where you can be playing (aka learning skills) rather than stopping and chatting!

obviously there are a lot of folk who have paid for these course and REALLY felt the benefit from them, but pretty much everyone has said that the skills have been 'back to basics', so why then do you need to pay someone to learn them?? the skills aren't complex, they're a combination fairly simple motor movements, balance and vision - something which we all do every day. of course if you don't have the time to go out and practice then speaking to someone who can break these things down or tell you some specific movements will be of benefit, but you still got to go and put the practice in afterwards.

finally, 'play' is actually a learning process - so if you want to improve your skills think about how you can play around on your bike more every time you go out on it.

Trackstands are a very useful skill out 'on the trails'

I guess it depends whether you're riding proper techy stuff but for me if I'm slow enough to be able to trackstand on the trails I usually ride, then I've done something wrong 😛 I'm alright at trackstands though, I find them useful on the road at lights or junctions.

So it looks like in general we have three schools of thought

live and let live, the reasonble majority who are happy for you to choose whether or not to do things

People who've been on skills courses and found them useful

People who haven't been on skills courses but think they are a bad thing

Skills courses aren't a necessity by any means but I bet there are very few people that couldn't learn something that improves their riding ability whilst on one (assuming it's a well respected instructor etc.).

Sure you can learn most/all of what you need yourself if you have the patience and time, you'll probably pick up a few more injuries along the way though as you figure out that the first 3 variations you try are the wrong way (rather than just have someone show you the right way).

Riding is one thing but flow is something else, there's very few people out there that seemingly effortlessly work a trail and carry speed, even fewer that can teach others how to do it.

Heck when I went to Uni and had some basic coaching in swimming it was an eye opener just how much was involved in the freestyle stroke arm movement, riding a bike over rough terrain at speed is far more complicated.

[i]People who haven't been on skills courses but think they are a bad thing[/i]

Can you find me this bit, cos I don't think that's what people are saying.