[Closed] Have skills courses become the latest de rigueur accessory?

I used to play a lot of golf. In golf, it's pretty common to have regular coaching from the local pro. If you don't do this it's very easy to practise bad habits. Usually in golf it's your grip/posture/balance slowly over time getting away from the optimal and you correcting for this. It's very difficult to observe your bad habits yourself. A good pro can identifiy these for you. Often this is enought to bring you back on track.

Exactly the same can be said of riding. Even the bad habits are pretty similar posture and balance.

So training can be good. I did a DH course with Mr Sorrel and it definately identified a few things I was doing wrong. I can go round right hand bends much better than left. Without his observation I would never had knowmn this and be able to try and reslolve it!

So play is practice, but not necessarily good practice!

Training is a good thing!

st colin

Interesting topic. First off, I know the OP, and I can assure anyone on here it's a genuine topic and it has raised decent responses so far.

Yes, I was curious about this as I thought I was observing a trend or a phenomenon of sorts happening and wanted to pool opinion on it. As I said at the start of the thread I don't doubt the benefits of a course for some people. What I was interested in was whether doing a course had become a bit of a rite of passage or perceived as the latest "must have thing".

People quickly started defending the validity/necessity of coaching but the thread as a whole has satisfied my curiosity.

Some of the responses have been surprising, like the guy who felt you need a camera crew to figure anything out, but on the whole it's been interesting reading. Personally I treat most rides as training rides, I'm always trying to build and improve on technique and get to measure myself against good riders on a regular basis. I feel this has had clear benefits for me, though I would never rule out going on a course just out of curiosity as much as anything else.

So, there are two schools of thought:

1: Those who want someone to teach them how to ride a bike 'properly'.

2: Those who ride a bike and just have fun.

Gotz da skills to pay da billz.

Yes or:

1. Those that are shit on a bike and dead lazy and cant be arsed putting the hours in to learn how to ride properly and want it all to come easy to them like sitting around watching TV is.

2. Those that are good on a bike because they've put the hours in practicing and hence when they ride they have more fun. They cant understand the lazy attitude of other riders - all it takes is a bit of motivation and a good work ethic

Possibly this ^^^ 🙂

mark b .... your the only person sad enough to actually think your a better rider than someone youve never met....shows how silly you are. you know what, you may well be a better rider than me..who knows..who cares..wave your kn0b elsewhere..

Whoops - seem to have touched a nerve there. After the 'it's intimidating in here' thread i can only profusely apologise for the trauma caused.

not sure a training course is on a par with buying blingy kit

it might me more comparable with a weekend away riding - in terms of time, money, enjoyment, upskilling.....

(certainly a damn sight easier to organise myself and a coach for a day, than it is to arrange half a dozen working blokes with a variety of family commitments to decamp to some big hills and a different pub for the weekend.)

Interesting discussion.

My personal take on this is that mountain biking has now 'reached a certain age'/maturity/development and like the life cycle of other outdoor actvities, once the early pioneers & adopters have carved a path there follows a period of popularity as the activity gains public acceptance.

Clearly there is little or no instruction for the early pioneers as they are the ones blazing the trail, but once the public acceptance increases, the rest of us who aren't 'natural athletes' and need to put the requisite '10,000 hours' in to reach a modicum of skill level

... or we pay for coaching/instruction because:

- time is short
- we want to steepen or ramp up the learning curve
- we are currently frustrated with our current skill level and want to progress.
etc ...

Within the snowsports industry it seems to be perfectly acceptable and indeed commonplace in both Europe & North America to have instruction in order to address these shortcomings as for most people the time on the snow is somewhat limited and many people want to maximise their enjoyment and progression.

... anecdotally the exceptions to this often seems to be the British who seemingly take some stoic pride in not having ski/snowbard lessons and perpetuating their bad habits. (I'm not sure why this is but there seems to be a similar reluctance within mountain biking, although I think things are beginning to change a bit and the concept of 'coaching' in order to improve your enjoyment is becoming more accepted)

With very few exceptions almost all of the very best snowsport participants I've met have undertaken some form of instruction or coaching at some point because a decent instructor can:

- provide a clear explanation of desired goals and achievements
- de-tune a demonstration so that the maneuver can be broken down into sections
- facilitate an appropiate learning environment
- determine what 'learning styles' an individual may have and tailor the course accordingly
- provide relevant feedback

Sure, some of your mates can do all of this (although many can't) and given enough time you would probably figure most of it out for yourself, but even then you might not - until someone points out the error of your ways:

I thought I rode with my elbows quite bent and relaxed until I saw video footage that proved otherwise ...

So I would say no ... skills courses aren't the latest 'must have' accesory ... but [a good one] can make a big difference to your riding enjoyment!

I have never done an MTB skills course but given the time & money I may well do one in the future. I think it would be fun & I may learn to do some things I can't do or improve on the things I can.

I have been on motorcycle training on various tracks around the country and having someone take the time to watch what you do then give you advice that is tailored to you can be a much faster way to learn or to improve. Simply following someone better can teach you a thing or two & give you the confidence to try something as you know if they can do it so can you, I think coaching can teach you more & faster.

Who does the training makes a big difference and you may have noticed the best sports coaches in various sports are not necessarily the best at those sports. You need someone who can improve you not just someone who can beat you.

I think "latest accessory" might have been an unfair term, or at least carrying too much in the way of negative connotations but I think it's obvious, even just from this thread that there's been a shift in attitudes/culture towards the whole coaching thing.

mark b, its ok no lasting trauma caused I think ive managed to get over it... I think it's you thats traumatised from the fact you couldnt hop a log without a course to show you how. Now go ride yor bike properly.

but I think it's obvious, even just from this thread that there's been a shift in attitudes/culture towards the whole coaching thing

It's certainly becoming more and more popular. It's relatively inexpensive and generally seems to be pretty effective, so perhaps not surprising.

I take it from the doubters that they are either gifted athletes or have never participated in any other sport where coaching is the norm ie most other sports.

I'm a doubter, and I must, therefore be a gifted athlete...

I look on it as the latest development in a [s]sport[/s] leisure activity for the well off...

Not only do we 'need' specialist machinery, special pedals, special shoes, special shorts, special socks, special gloves, special underwear made from special sheep, special helmets, special glasses... we now 'need' someone to show us how to get the best out of all this special stuff.

Let me state, again for those of a nervous disposition, that I have no problem with people going on skills courses. No problem. None.

I just find it all a bit ****y, really. Given that the padded up, Camelbak-size-of-a-small-country, drive to the riding, pushing up hill middle manager IT specialist stereotype STWer struggles just to get to anything where these special skills can be used....

It moves us yet another step away from just riding a bike, it's yet more silly one-upmanship, yet another thing that makes one of the most accessible activities in the country into some kind of middle class exclusive club.

As I said before, mountain biking is moving in a direction that is beginning to grate on me, and I've been doing it since 1988.

My feeling is that people have lost the will and/or the ability to actually go out and improve by dedication and practice and sheer bloody mindedness, and are now paying someone else to tell them how to do the thing that they profess to love.

It's riding a bike, get a collective grip.

crikey... I couldnt have put it any better myself, my sentiments exactly.

Swimming - just waving your arms about in the water - coaching gets the best out of all levels of swimmers.
Golf - resident coaches
Running - coaches at running clubs
Road cycling - coaching the norm
Tennis - club coaches a plenty
Surfing - pretty standard to coach
Mountain biking? No, man. We don't need it. We're totally different and we're all riding to our potential and if we don't, it is because we're lazy. We can all critique ourselves better than anyone else as well.

As I said before, mountain biking is moving in a direction that is beginning to grate on me

give it up then.

how many of these IT middle managers go on these courses, verses how many enthusiastic, reasonably fit, normal riders. Not many I would guess.

Most of these middle aged, IT middle managers I come across go road cycling as you can wear all the kit and get a reasonable pace (for them) on the road, without having to put as much effort in as you would mtbing.

It's riding a bike

so you would think but the correct technique for carving up flowing singletrack is not 'just riding a bike'. Maybe you would know this if you went on one of these courses...

Been a runner, with no coaching. Been a road racer, with no coaching. Been a mountain bike racer, that's racer rather than a few hours out with my mates, no coaching.

As I said, I've no problem with anyone getting coaching, but ....Oooh look, it has become de rigeur, and if I say I don't agree, I now have to defend that position...

Havent bothered reading most of this thread but believe it must be a troll surely!!?? Seems to be encouraging agro with "evil stereotyping" from both sides encouraging us to unite against the "bad guys"... tribalism coming out...woe betide the newbies, AGNI's, Middle class IT guys, and what about the golfers & bankers? Some riders need and enjoy courses, but other riders are happy not to do them . Strangely we are all different!! VIVE LA DIFFERENCE...its YOUR CHOICE

Been a runner, with no coaching. Been a road racer, with no coaching. Been a mountain bike racer, that's racer rather than a few hours out with my mates, no coaching.

Just think, you probably could have been a world class contender with a bit of coaching...

Wow. Hilarious...

Wow. Hilarious...

how do you know, I bet you could have been great - maybe made a living at it and then ended up coaching to fill out the rest of your working years.

It's easy to tell you've had comedy coaching too.. 🙄

where's the comedy - you'll never know how good you could have been, if only you had been humble enough to have some coaching.

If you'd have asked all those riders/runners that were passing you they probably could have recommended one.

I think far too much is made of skills coaching by a lot of people.. many folk would get just as much benefit simply by lowering their seats occasionally..

Aww, thanks for your concern, but I'm happy enough to have achieved what I have on my own. Not a popular approach these days, obviously.

Aww, thanks for your concern, but I'm happy enough to have achieved what I have on my own.

that's the trouble these days, people are too ready to accept mediocrity...

I too have been mountain biking since the late 80's, grew up on early mountain bikes and have seen many shifts in trends etc.

It has always been a sport that has thrived on the next big thing- bula hats, purple anodising, tioga disc drives, jez avery skills, tomac skin suits, mint sauce jerseys... all relatively pointless but also harmless and ultimately only owned/used/aspired to by a small proportion of the community as a whole.

So seeing the sport move in a way that grates you confuses me in that it's so diverse and so many folk will never change, it's only a small proportion that jump on the next big thing but it gains publicity because it's something new. It's not going to change your version of the sport is it?

I'll tag along with any bandwagon that looks like it will make my riding more fun- big bars, slacker angles, dropper posts etc, and I suspect a skills course might fall in to that category.

Anything that doesnt appeal I'll leave by the wayside and possibly poke a bit of fun at, but it certainly won't change how I feel about the sport as a whole. Skills courses, like stw, will only be accessed by a very small proportion of the Mtb community so don't worry, your hobby doesnt have to change one bit.

I'm not actually worried...
It is after all, just people playing about on bikes, and it's gratingness is only my view of the 'scene', of the way it appears, which has no bearing on my riding at all.

Do tell us your competitive history TurnerGuy, it would be an opportunity for you to attempt to score points rather than engage in any sensible conversation.

assuming you don't pick up a bad habit and then compound it.

To be fair I am not buying the skill course stuff. When we started riding with the SO she got into booking one through a friend of hers. Course was with a world champ and a qualified BE instructor. Results, total loss of confidence, and 4 weeks of careful riding to get her back the way she was.

They are indeed a few basics :
look where you want to go
don't brake into the obstacle
look further ahead.
Everything else is just brain frack. I am lucky enough to ride with very good and skillful people. None of them ride the same. Who is correct then?
I do think it's the latest things to do. I can't believe everyone on here rides with crappier rider.
Plus I still don't get this improved riding things what is it?
going faster? Going smoother? Please do tell 😉

Juan, nice to see you here again!

I can tell that you haven't had as much English contact, but you still make a lot of sense.

Do tell us your competitive history TurnerGuy

I never said I competed - if I had I would probably have had some coaching though so I could fully realise my potential.

If I had more time (work in the city) I would probably have a go in my age group, but I haven't 🙁

+1 for jaun making a lot of sense.

[i]but I haven't[/i]

See... I could have a go about that, but I'm cool with the 'get skills coaching if you want' thing, but I don't want it.

I did road running when I was 15, sneaking into marathons with a fake DoB, then did cyclocross, riding for my area in the Inter-area championships and finishing in the top ten in the North-West, then did Mountain bike racing, riding in the Pro-Elite class, finishing top ten in the Diamond Back series, racing in the first Grundig World Cup race in Strathpeffer with John Tomac, Thomas Frischknecht, Barry Clarke, Ned Overend and so on, then did the 3 Peaks cyclocross, then took up Fell Running, doing the 3 Peaks fell race, then took up road racing, racing here and in Belgium and Holland, then came back to mountain biking.

I never had a coach because I couldn't afford one, and never really saw the point; the limiting factor on my performance was always the time and money I had available, not the lack of advice.

Let me reinforce the point; I don't have anything against skills training, and I'm sure some people benefit from it, but it begins to take casual, leisure activity, out with your mates mountain biking into the realms of something different.

I can tell that you haven't had as much English contact

:'( :'( :'(

I think it's time I bite the bullet and come back here. Otherwise in a few month my english will be non-existent.

Juan, your English has always been superb, even though I can tell that you haven't practiced, it is still readable and makes very good sense. Think of the standard of your English compared to the poor French that anyone on here would be embarrassed to write down...

Chapeau.

Yes but it should be better, after all I spent 4 year in southampton.

Juan, they don't speak English in Southampton... 😉

juan - Member

Ok I have stop here. What is a bad habit? Go and tell sam hill he as the bad habit of sometimes sticking is foot out in berms then. Go and tell Fabien barel he's doing to much skidding during his runs. After all looks like they are not doing it "correctly" and thye may have picked up a bad habit.

Welcome back Juan!

But some (many? most?) top end riders do take coaching. Just look at Aaron Gwin for one example, he's the fastest in the world right now. Ruaridh Cunningham probably wouldn't have been world champion without Chris Ball...

juan - I'm glad you got your gf sorted in the end and she hasn't given up.

Yeah I am glad too, mind you "buying" a new bike and a new bag and some elbow pads have help here riding.
😉

Northwind - "probably" is a good way of saying "There's no way of knowing" I reckon RC would "probably" not have been WC if Josh hadn't punctured 😉
talking of which, Josh's riding style is hugely different from Ruaridh's.. I wonder if Chris's coaching would have helped a rider like him or Danny hart (for example) as much.
Juan has a point!

Ps. who coached Gwin? (I'm talking about skills here, not fitness, professionalism or mental attitude)

But some (many? most?) top end riders do take coaching.

Alright Juan yer bugger! 😀

I took a swimming skilz course and it has made me a better swimmer. Improved technique and efficiency.

Hmmm, 'I concur' suggests that you have not lost as much as you think....