I REALLY did not want to post this, but I could use some neutral opinions.
I bought a complete bike from a known, respectable seller. I paid the full asking price, no discount or bartering.
The bike was clearly pictured with nice pedals and a nice saddle.
The bike arrived with A LOT of faults, but worse than that:
the nice pedals weren't there
the nice saddle had been swapped for a far inferior one
the fork was a different model and travel to what was stated in the ad
The tyres had been swapped from I believe tubeless 2.3's to tubed 2.2's with cracking sidewalls.
Titanium brake mount bolts pictured had been replaced with steel
Now, none of this was mentioned or agreed. I thought I was getting the bike in the pictures.
The seller says he never mentioned that the pedals and saddle WERE included, yet he pictured them and didn't say "pedals not included" or "saddle to be swapped for a cheaper one". So as far as I'm concerned they were included.
I've sold a bike in the past without pedals and either stated "pedals not included" or pictured the bike without them.
And I'd never dream of swapping different bits onto a bike after it was sold...
I've tried to be nice about it, but in reality how out of order is this?
It doesn't look like we are going to agree on a solution so I'm happy to let him have the bike back, but no way should I be out of pocket on postage after it was so different to the description/pictures, right?
Really gutted with the situation 🙁
Yes.
Yes you have been ripped off. return for a refund or chageback under payplal / credit card
Yes
Yep, and yes you shouldn't be out of pocket. They should state any differences with what is pictured.
As he's clearly not too fussed about the spec, how about finding a bike at your local tip and sending him that for your refund?
WHat are Ditch Forks?
Yeah, all things being equal, someone's taken the piss.
Is this via ebay?
Anyway, the postage issue, personally I'd just pay it and move on, fair or not, it's better to get your money back and find another bike than spend a week arguing over £20 or whatever.
Not Ebay, on here sadly, which makes it a bit more gutting. I always think of people on STW as the same people I say hi to or help out out on the trails.
Postage was quite a lot, much more than £20, so definitely not fair that I should pay it.
Either negotiate a compromise or go to small claims unless you paid by a method that you can reverse
Personal view is that industry practice is bike's come without pedals unless stated that they are included, but that's a minor issue in this case and otherwise agree entirely.
WHat are Ditch Forks?
BMX steet fork made by S&M in the late nineties to compliment there normal "Pitch forks" but with 'U' brake mounts and 14mm dropouts meant for street abuse. Heavier than a neutron star.
Personal view is that industry practice is bike's come without pedals
New bikes come without pedals, used ones come [b]as pictured[/b], unless explicitly mentioned in the ad.
Out of curiosity, does the seller's marketplace posts to normal forum posts ratio result in a division by zero?
[quote=curto80 ]Personal view is that industry practice is bike's come without pedals unless stated that they are included, but that's a minor issue in this case and otherwise agree entirely.
on a brand new bike yes, but when second hand you get what's in the pic unless the seller explains otherwise
on a brand new bike yes, but when second hand you get what's in the pic unless the seller explains otherwise
+1
Respected seller on here? Didn't realise there was such a thing.
If it's in the picture you get it unless the ad says otherwise, imo.
Being generous it sounds like someone used old pics in the ad?
fork model and travel mis described is a bit odd too.
Yes, that is an utter rip off. The bike is virtually completely not as advertised.
notify paypal and return for refund. Ensure you have delivery signed for.
Unfortunately I expect it wont be that simple, as someone who would try that kind of rip off will almost certainly try and get out of repaying you.
BMX steet fork made by S&M in the late nineties to compliment there normal "Pitch forks" but with 'U' brake mounts and 14mm dropouts meant for street abuse. Heavier than a neutron star.
Well played.
You get what's in the pic unless they state you aren't getting what's in the pic.
Good luck.
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Seller is (was?) a seemingly decent, long standing STW member and active poster.
He has just said
"I have sold tens of thousands of pounds worth bikes on STW and eBay over 12 years of mountain biking without any problems or complaints."
Someone so experienced should no doubt have also noticed and mentioned the many faults needing attention - leaking and knocking forks, a sheared disc bolt stuck in the hub, rocking cranks with worn out BB bearings to name just a few of the problems...
🙁
I seem to remember someone selling a shonky pair of brakes using a picture of the same model brakes but in as-new condition. We killed him, flayed him and displayed his skin on the city walls as a warning to others. This seems even more clear-cut.
[i]"I have sold tens of thousands of pounds worth bikes on STW and eBay over 12 years of mountain biking without any problems or complaints."[/i]
trader then?
[i]
You get what's in the pic unless they state you aren't getting what's in the pic.[/i]
"some very slight marks on the stickers but you don;t see them when fitted to the bike"
Bike should be supplied as pictured unless otherwise stated. So if anything was going to be changed from the pictures the seller should have said so. If they didnt, then its either not been described correctly, or has not been supplied correctly.
Eitherway seller should sort it out, either with the correct parts, take the bike back, or recompense to your satisfaction.
Whether they have sold £1 worth or £10,000 worth of goods before is irrelevant
What use is this without a link to the original thread or a name and shame? 1/10
Of course there are usually two sides to a story but based on your version it looks like you have every right to be angry.
Link to the FS ad so we can know where to point our pitchforks....
"I have sold tens of thousands of pounds worth bikes on STW and eBay over 12 years of mountain biking without any problems or complaints."
that is not in itself a mark of a reputation. Posting on the bike or chat forum is a good start..... just sayin'
A link to the ad usually sorts these matters out.. The seller usually appears and gives his side of the story and takes the item back..
Just name and shame, the singletrack masses will soon come to a verdict. But be prepared for a certain amount of public flogging, if you are not being completely honest in your post.
BMX steet fork made by S&M in the late nineties to compliment there normal "Pitch forks" but with 'U' brake mounts and 14mm dropouts meant for street abuse. Heavier than a neutron star.
Every day's a school day!! 
Must get some to compliment the ditch finder wheels I appear to have
that is not in itself a mark of a reputation. Posting on the bike or chat forum is a good start..... just sayin'
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You've literally had your pants pulled down in public 😆
Name and shame
I don't want a witch hunt, and want to give the seller the chance to do the right thing.
I suggested a reasonable partial refund, he agreed but offered to give less than half what I requested and was adamant that the pedals and saddle were never included.
He also suggested I wanted him to pay to make a used bike an immaculate bike but that's simply not the case - I just want what was advertised in good used condition, working well.
Let's be fair though he's not running to Brazil with my money, he has offered to refund, but isn't prepared to reimburse any postage costs.
I'm happy to return it, but his mistakes/parts omitting/swapping/lack of describing the true condition are the cause of the problem so he should pay the postage. No doubt.
I must admit I'm getting pretty frustrated. It all seems like just figures to him as he's stated he can get x amount in parts rather than to put things right with me.
If it was me I'd return it for refund. Never mind the postage.
That could be put against a life lesson and you'll know not to deal in future.
I'm happy to return it, but his mistakes/parts omitting/swapping/lack of describing the true condition are the cause of the problem so he should pay the postage. No doubt.
This
sale by description isn't it? the picture forms part of the description , if the bike doesn't match the description the seller is in breach of the contract and is liable for your losses including return postage costs.
Exactly crankboy. Seems fair.
Pedals I'm not completely decided on but the rest seems unreasonable. But life's too short and I'd probably just return for a refund, postage is unlikely to be too bad.
"Pedals not included"
It would be a lot easier to comment if there was a link to the original advert 😉
[quote=BigDummy ]I seem to remember someone selling a shonky pair of brakes using a picture of the same model brakes but in as-new condition. We killed him, flayed him and displayed his skin on the city walls as a warning to others. This seems even more clear-cut.
That was Realman. His road to redemption included issuing daily updates on the TdF for 4 years.
OP - welcome to the forum. There's no doubt you'd garner more sympathy if you'd been a regular contributor yourself. However, I reckon you've a genuine cause for complaint here. In lieu of a formal feedback mechanism I'd start by adding a post to the sellers thread warning other potential buyers of what they might expect.
The mods might want to be informed, though they have no formal role in any disagreements.
If you paid by Paypal then I'd start going down that route for a full refund and tell the seller to arrange to have the bike picked up from you, at your convenience.
That was Realman. His road to redemption included issuing daily updates on the TdF for 4 years.
iirc he never admitted to any wrongdoing.
I'm very curious who the user is, not to mention his current alias.
If the bike isn't as described ask for your money back. How did you pay?
How did you pay OP, if via paypal goods raise a dispute. You will likely get a partial refund.
I'd send the bike back and get a refund then chase for reimbursement of the postage costs via small claims court. Then tell us who the seller is so we can all avoid them in future.
I thought there was a lower limit on a small claims court action?
I'd get the refund before sending the bike back.
If you went through paypal then deal with it through them - they'll organise the money and reserve funds etc.
If you don't want to name the seller yet then a simple picture of the bike as advertised, followed and the bike as received should be sufficient to prove your case on here. And satisfy my curiosity. 🙂
scotroutes - thanks but I've been on here and posting on and off for many years 😉
I paid by bank payment, I trusted the seller, talked to him first, checked him out, seemed a decent guy, knowledgeable about bikes etc. The kind of guy you'd be pleased to buy high end gear from.
As for all the faults/problems I pointed out, he simply says he didn't know about them and it seemed to ride ok when he last rode it a few weeks prior to sending.
The only legal protection you really have with second-hand goods is "as described." Seems pretty clear to me, based on the one-sided evidence presented so far at least, that it was not as described.
STW doesn't have a returns policy as it's merely providing a place for people to post adverts like the boards you have in supermarkets. So let's look at eBay's returns policy:
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/buy/return-item.html#process
[i]If the item was not as described, the seller is responsible for paying return postage costs. If a buyer changes their mind about a purchase and wants to return it, they may be required to pay the postage costs depending on the seller's return policy.[/i]
I'd be wanting my money back if it were me, or a partial refund (and keep the bike) to reflect the disparity.
[quote=guglielmo ]I paid by bank payment, I trusted the seller, talked to him first, checked him out, seemed a decent guy, knowledgeable about bikes etc. The kind of guy you'd be pleased to buy high end gear from.
As for all the faults/problems I pointed out, he simply says he didn't know about them and it seemed to ride ok when he last rode it a few weeks prior to sending.
See, if that was me, I'd rather do the refund and resolve the issue before it got to this. never mind the bad publicity, I'd just feel bad about mis-describing something!
jonnyboi - I'll hold fire for now, but will put up a list of the changes and faults in a bit.
To be fair then you are on your own. You have a couple of options.
1) Tell the seller you are pointing out the error of his ways on the forum and will return the bike once he has transferred the money back to you. (you paid before he sent it to you) Give him the chance to do the right thing
2) Suck it up and keep the bike
3) Send it back under his terms.
Personally i would go down the first route. Tell him what you are doing, post his details on here and give him a chance to reply before actually publicly vilifying him/her. I personally would like to know who it is so i can be wary at a later date.
Cougar - yes, thanks, and totally agree on all counts!!
Well, yes, you would. (-:
Anyone interested in a sweepstake on who the seller is?
i would 'say sold as seen' if the buyer has a photo up unless they state what parts will not be on it (seems to be the consensus of every-one on here) would ask for complete refund of money as they are in the wrong. if the seller does not agree youll just have to suck it up (and name and shame). although fairly new to the forum i was under the same impression as the OP, most folk seem genuine on here, guess there can be tw@s in all aspects of life
a known, respectable seller.
a seemingly decent, long standing STW member and active poster.
sold tens of thousands of pounds worth bikes on STW and eBay over 12 years of mountain biking without any problems or complaints.
seemed a decent guy, knowledgeable about bikes etc. The kind of guy you'd be pleased to buy high end gear from.
Not me then
Anyone interested in a sweepstake on who the seller is?
As soon as I read this bit:
sold tens of thousands of pounds worth bikes on STW and eBay over 12 years of mountain biking without any problems or complaints.
There was one name that sprung to mind. It'll be interesting to see if I was right 😆
Name and shame please, seller sounds like a right ****, and one to avoid in the future.
[quote=notmyrealname ]There was one name that sprung to mind. davidtaylforth? Methinks he doth protest too much...
Heh! It could've been me
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/has-anyone-successfully-scammed-a-classifieds-user-on-here
I'm the seller here, so you can flame away.
The photos used were for when I first built the bike (only a few months ago, but were using some parts (saddle (SLR Road) and skewer (XTR) from my road bike)). The saddle was later replaced with a Specialised Henge Comp and Bontrager Skewer and that's how it was ridden
The fork was a genuine mistake - it was sold to me as a 140mm Fox Kashima 29er fork. I think I added CTD (to the description) even though the pictures clearly show RLC. Still, not as advertised and my mistake, though not an intentional one.
I did change the tyres, (Specialised Purgatory 2.3/2.2 > Kenda Nevegal 2.2 DTC JTS) but again, this was over a month ago and the bike has been ridden several times since then. I never noticed cracking, but then, I've never through to check.
The bolts were swapped as I've not ridden it with those bolts as they're only 10mm in length and look great for photo's but were swapped immediately. I intended to buy some replacement Ti bolts of appropriate length but never go around to it. The sale was a reluctant and rushed one.
None of this is in dispute and I've admitted it's my error and my fault.
In addition, the buyer wants the pedals pictured (I've never been held to this in a bike sale...ever) another stem (I never mentioned the stem length, but did intimate that the bike fitted me perfectly with an 80mm stem) as the 100mm one is too long, but 90mm will apparently do, replacement pads for the brakes, new bearings for the wheel (less than 200 miles, but have been sat for a year...so maybe), new bearings for the 60mile old BB. All of which I've agreed to.
In addition, the buyer also wants an additional £350 returned to him as a partial refund to cover the fork, a brake service and rebuild and a new front rotor as the old one is too thin... Coupled with all of the other parts, this equate to an almost £550 refund/cost. I think this is too much. I've agreed to both all the parts requested plus a partial refund of £150 (enough for a fork service, brake rebuild, new front floating rotor) or a full refund, but the £350 + parts is too much, I’d rather refund, repair and resell than sell the bike for an equivalent of £650.
I have never objected to a refund, nor have I dodged any questions or communication. The only things I've offered serious objection to are the pedals and the cost of the partial refund.
The sticking point is the shipping. I didn't want to ship the bike, I offered collection or meeting up. He said that he received “preferential rates for shipping and that If I could go and get a box from Halfords, he would arrange for it to be collected and shipped”. I agreed - I shouldn't have.
My mistake was listing it in a rush, I never intended to be in any way duplicitous.
As for the comments of trader - certainly not. Serial bike swapper/part whore – guilty. Is £10+k really a lot in bikes these days?
You should offer return postage and refund.
You can send a bike via send it now for 15 quid. Toss a coin to see who pays it or split the cost and move on.
life too short.
I once bought a bike that had a Brooks Ti Swift in the pics. Bargain fir £200 I thought! Arrived with a Childs gel saddle and the seller was surprised when I was peeved! Full refund plus return postage was offered.
I guess you realise your ad was shite. But lol at this bit. Do you do bike fits aswell 😉
In addition, the buyer wants the pedals pictured (I've never been held to this in a bike sale...ever) another stem (I never mentioned the stem length, but did intimate that the bike fitted me perfectly with an 80mm stem) as the 100mm one is too long, but 90mm will apparently do, replacement pads for the brakes, new bearings for the wheel (less than 200 miles, but have been sat for a year...so maybe), new bearings for the 60mile old BB. All of which I've agreed to
Looks like the seller's profile picture is quite apt!
Never a dull day here 😀
I have.ctk - Member
You should offer return postage and refund.
ctk - Member
I once bought a bike that had a Brooks Ti Swift in the pics. Bargain fir £200 I thought! Arrived with a Childs gel saddle and the seller was surprised when I was peeved! Full refund plus return postage was offered.
Not quite the same - The Henge with the bike is actually a more expensive saddle (£70 vs £65 for the SLR) - I only swapped it as the SLR is now on my Road bike as it was bloody uncomfortable on the rather burly Litespeed.
Hicksy - Member
Looks like the seller's profile picture is quite apt!
It seemed appropriate for the context.
ampthill - Member
Never a dull day here
Indeed. Was anyone right in the sweepstake?
Daffy - you admit your ad was misleading - just refund the bloke and get the bike back and relist with a better Advert.
Best profile ever (under the circumstances)
"Leg it Rodders !!"
[quote=tjagain ]Daffy - you admit your ad was misleading - just refund the bloke and get the bike back and relist with a better Advert.
[quote=Daffy ]
I have.ctk - Member
You should offer return postage and refund.
Was anyone right in the sweepstake?
Are you davidtaylforths other userid?
To be fair to daffy most of what he says above is about right although my £350 partial refund suggestion did include the value of the missing Time ATAC pedals, fork service and bushings, shot hub bearing replacement, time/cost to remove sheared bolt from hub, brake rebuild, lower fork model difference etc.
I think maybe we are getting somewhere now although the apologies/admittances weren't apparent in our earlier messages.
I do believe it was down to him rushing it and not checking stuff properly rather than trying to rip me off. Although I can't quite get the "have this lovely steel spesh instead of the nasty SLR Titanium, nice sir" thought process when swapping saddles for instance...
But I'm hopeful we will sort it fairly, with daffy covering all postage costs if the bike goes back, or an agreed partial refund amount so I can sort the problems and ride the thing if it stays. That's all I ever wanted. So please reserve judgment/flaming until we've sorted it like gents.
But no doubt, swapping stuff out without agreement is not on, regardless.
Indeed. Was anyone right in the sweepstake?
If mental entries count, then yes 🙂
Is there a way to visually tell that a bolt is titanium? How does one do that?
But no doubt, swapping stuff out without agreement is not on, regardless
I'd have to agree with this. Photos form part of the implied contract of sale (IMHO if not legally) and therefore should be accurate or stated where any exclusions apply.
But offering full refund and return is reasonable in terms of resolving the issues.
seller sounds like a right ****
Ha
hold a magnet up to the monitor?Is there a way to visually tell that a bolt is titanium? How does one do that?
IMO, sale item should be the thing in the picture unless you specifically state otherwise. Pedals included.
Codybrennan - haha years of training, you just know. But some Ti bolts are really the least of the problem, and in hindsight maybe a bit picky, but I was just so peeved at the unmentioned saddle/tyres/skewer/pedals swaps/omissions and different travel/model fork etc.
Anyways I'm sure we'll get it sorted. As many have said life's too short and as MTBers we need to be making love not war.