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Okay, as someone who has ran both a hubgear and a dynamo for over 8 years and 30000+km, I’ll weigh in.
I’ve ran a Alfine 11 in one guise or another since early 2012 and a series of SA hubs long before that.
1. In mechanical form (cables) they are no more reliable than a derailleur, cable tension is critical and more frequent oil changes make-for better performance.
2. They are HEAVY! My alfine 11 gives up over 1100g to a 1x11 XTR drivetrain and its all at the rear. You can feel it, all the time.
3. They are draggy, and you can definitely feel it. This is especially true for the first 1000 miles after servicing.
4. They’re not cheap. Alfine 11, motor, shifter, battery ~ £600. XTR cassette, shifter, mech, hub, £450. You can go a whole lot cheaper and still be significantly lighter.
5. If they get damaged (and they do because they're easy to abuse) the repair costs can be very high, sometimes requiring the hub to be replaced.
As a test, I've just bought a Di2 XTR rear mech and will be swapping my Alfine 11 Di2 and Exposure Revo for a set of CKs and 1*11 Di2 for this winter. That'll be about 1500-2000km of commuting in shit weather on basically the same bike but with mechs instead of hub gears.
My suspicion is that becase of di2, the bike will behave exactly the same, but will feel much lighter and will require more maintenance.
Never had probs, they’re great on MTBs. Cheap, light (until dinner plate cassettes arrived) and a piece of piss to maintain compared to other options. Deore my favourite. Hub gears on town-utility ftw.
cromolyolly
Ever since I got my first bike with a derailleur I wonder why they weren’t mounted on the seatstay out of the way. They are about the best compromise as an actual mechanism, they are just in the wrong place.
With the modern range of gears there is so much chain slack to tension that you couldn't really put them anywhere else other than where they are. Same goes for a seperate tensioner really.
The 7 year break even point seems a little optimistic. A 11 speed SRAM steel 10 42 seems to last and last, certainly at least 3 seasons. Chains are £12.99 at worst.
In 28 years of mountain biking I still haven't broken a rear mech even on “fashionable" x1 (since 2009) so in my experience they are not fragile delicate parts, they're bloody over engineered and in the case of the M8000, well out of the way. If the worse happens, they're £50, not exactly going to break the bank.
Is there a big enough incentive to invest in it without a guarantee that it would be worthwhile? It might be that e-bikes supply that, motor + a gearbox could be a sellable combination but good luck hoiking it over a wall
The trick that has apparently been missed (or maybe not, neither are really my bag at present TBH) seems to be standardisation on a single mounting format that accommodates both Mid-drive units for Ebikes and Gear boxes in the same position (Replacing the BB with whatever box of tricks you want).
At present there seem to be several competing versions of what is basically the same thing that perform near enough the same function.
The co-ordination isn't quite there (yet). To my mind manufacturers should be harmonizing on this one point if they want to make Ebikes AND Gear boxes economically viable to manufacture (at least the big Corp's; Trek/SBC/Giant/etc).
Of course the marketing prize for doing it is making Derailleur based Drivetrains "Obsolete" in several subsets of the MTB market (and possibly utility bikes?) and driving some new sales... The comics would love it.
Obvious solution to the vulnerability of position is for everyone to learn to pedal backwards. Derailleur position is now above the dropout.
Job jobbed.
Recreational riding? I’d be wondering how much fresher I would be feeling at the 70 mile mark of I’d bought a cheaper*, lighter option.
This is it, for me. I don't want to break speed records, but the more efficient your bike is the further you can ride, the faster you can get the climbs done and the more energy you can put into speed and hence thrillz. And when riding from home, a quicker bike means I can get further out and have more choice of trails (in the bigger hills) in the time available.
I had an Alfine 8 for a couple of years. I hated the squishy feeling and the drag, but loved the chain out of the way. Unlike others on here mine needed the cable tension checking regularly.
My bike was actually a Genesis iO and eventually a cheap SS wheel came up I thought why not have a go. I never put the Alfine back on selling it straight after and I've always had a SS in the shed since!
If there was a light 3sp hub I would definitely give it another try but for me, but until then I'll keep an SS and bikes with mechs.
Ever since I got my first bike with a derailleur I wonder why they weren’t mounted on the seatstay out of the way.
Because a) they need to derail the chain on the way into the sprockets, not the way out b) the tensioner needs to be on the slack part of the chain (i.e. the bottom). As per above, learn to pedal backwards and you can do it.
where as i’m looking ahead 5-10 years from now when someone has really got stuck into the concept with enough cash to develop real improvements
Rohloff have been making the speedhub for 20 years now almost exclusively developing it as their only product. It still uses that shitty twist grip, it still has cables all over the place, and it still weighs the same as a small moon. Also it's not a bomb-proof as folk in here seem to suggest. I remember a poster on here complaining that a few water crossings would have it throwing its guts, and would be needed to shipped back to Germany for repair, and that's not cheap postage. I think I recall Rohloff admitting that to them hub deep water would be "extreme" conditions, but let's face it, that pretty much a "feature" of mountain biking in the UK in Winter.
The Shimano thing is a variation on a derailleur in a box, so Shimano obviously don't thing that derailleurs have "had their day".
I've got a Rohloff on an all year round off road commuter. In efficiency terms its miles ahead of a derailleur system. In the morning I get on it ride to work get covered in mud get off at work do nothing. At the end of the day I ride home get covered in mud and put in the garage and keep repeating. Maybe once a week the chain gets a wipe over and then a generous application of old Toyota gearbox oil I have lying around. Once a year it gets an oil change and every three years or so a new chain and sprocket. The twist shirter worked for 7 or 8 years on original cables despite all the outers being cracked and they were only changed because I swapped to an external box so I can convert the frame to disk brakes at some time. If you think it's better to get home a minute sooner and then spend 10 minutes making sure the bike will be rideable the next day then you might not see it as more efficient but if you think you'd rather ride for a minute longer and spend the time you'd be cleaning the bike indoors with a nice cup of tea then it seems a lot more efficient.
In short my view is they are a very efficient tool but not such a good toy. I'd only ever have one for a bike that I just want to work everyday whatever the weather with an absolute minimum of maintenance. They are not the best option for a bike you ride primarily for fun, more for one you ride to get a job done. That's not to say it isn't fun to ride, it is and knowing you haven't got to clean it when you get home only makes sliding in and out of work more enjoyable. An alternative now would be something like running a cheap 1x Deore cassette and chain, you could use that without cleaning and grind it into the ground but it would still need more time spent on it as bits need replacing.
In the morning I get on it ride to work get covered in mud get off at work do nothing.
Same as I do with my derailleur bike now I've got Putoline on the chain, I don't even oil it.
if you think you’d rather ride for a minute longer and spend the time you’d be cleaning the bike indoors with a nice cup of tea then it seems a lot more efficient.
It's not about overall time spent, if you're not commuting. More speed = more satisfaction, more drag = more frustration.
They are not the best option for a bike you ride primarily for fun, more for one you ride to get a job done.
This is the consensus.
Same as I do with my derailleur bike now I’ve got Putoline on the chain, I don’t even oil it.
A point I made, much easier option now with wide range 1x gearing but if it's getting utterly plastered in mud twice a day you'll still have to change bits more often an the 3 year cycle I'm on.
didn't we just have a big thread about gearboxes and hub gears? As someone who rode Rohloff on both full sus and hardtail for some years, then a Pinion for another few but runs conventional gears on my off road bikes my view is -
Gearboxes are shockingly bad on bikes, heavy, draggy, expensive, not repairable trailside, sloppy and with terrible ergonomics.
Is nearly all just plain wrong. Draggy - all the efficiency stats for Rohloff and Pinion suggest this is psychological. They feel different but they're not materially inefficient to an extent that would matter to anyone other than a pro racer.
Expensive - not in the long term as the expensive parts don't wear out and they're worth good money second han. I never had anything break trailside on a Rohloff or Pinion in all the years of riding and frankly theres nothing repairable trailside on a conventional gear system.
A badly bent or broken mech/hanger is pretty much a ride ender. As is a snapped cable (whereas with Rohloff or Pinion can lock reliably in one gear)
Sloppy? don't know? slow pickup? Yes, but not a problem. Also have the big advantage of shifting while stationary which is great for slow techy riding - shift a few gears while track standing is great
Terrible ergonomics. You don't like twist shifters but the advantage is just how many gears you can drop in one go, and it really never bothered me. They're overdue electronic solutions
So whats' not great? They're heavy. A hub gear does change the feel of a bike and 'deaden' the back end (though conversely the Pinion improved it as the weight is low central and unsuspended - rear suspension on a pinion bike feels brilliant as you take well over 600g off the rear wheel)
Pinion - integrated into the frame so frame is useless without it and can't really be transferred to a future bike as you can't BUY a frame without gearbox.
Mechs are a consumable for me. Pivots get sloppy and never work perfectly even if you don't smack them on something. If you ride anywhere tight and rocky you do smack them and I've seen people write off new mechs within days of fitting them.
On a commuter bike however? I'd not ride anything but hub gears again. Great for that. I think we'll see integrated bike motor gearboxes before long and they'll kill off conventional gearing there.
Oh, look, Shimano seem to be agreeing with me.
The derailleur can be improved. 🙂
Yeah but that's the company that brought us the Alfine..... The only hub gear worse is a nuvinci because it has its own gravitational pull
I won't hold my breath.
They feel different but they’re not materially inefficient to an extent that would matter to anyone other than a pro racer.
Why do you think only pros care about efficiency? I hate extra drag whilst climbing. It doesn't feel good. I run fast tyres and tubeless, to make climbing more fun and more enjoyable.
Pivots get sloppy and never work perfectly even if you don’t smack them on something.
That's not derailleurs, that's you 🙂 I can run them just fine slop-free. And tbh even when they get sloppy (using cheap old kit like I used to have to buy - or is on my commuter) they still work well!
Mechs. Those of us who can set them up well, do.The rest use hub gears.
So, the most advanced design Shimano can come up with is a derailleur in a box. The answer to the OP is therefore a No.
That will no doubt confer certain advantages of external derailleurs while at the same time not having the in-built inefficiency of a geared hub or gearbox but let's see how much it costs and weighs.
Let's see if it ever makes it into production .
Those of us who can set them up well, do.The rest use hub gears.
Or better mechs. You should see the nick of the plastic Altus on Iona's bike. Funnily enough the only mech I ever destroyed outside of a (possibly) badly set up DH road setup was an Altus.
See also front mechs vs 1x, 13floorezzi sums up my thoughts there, all the unsprung weight, mech closer to the ground etc. can be overcome with something that weighs a fraction of a dropper post.
I’ve an Alfine 8 hub, ran it for a few years and grew to hate the ****** thing.
Neither me, nor multiple bike shops could get it working well for any length of time. Going single speed was the best thing I’ve done with that bike. The rest of the fleet will keep mechs on.
*I didn’t really hate it, more a consistent source of disappointment.
They had there day a long time ago but the huge amount of sales is OEM .
Sram Shimano ain't bothered too much on the sales from us buying the odd upgrade mech it's less than 1% the OEM business is where they make there money
Shimano and sram have bought out over 22 prototypes from other companies of gearbox designs since 2002
The biggest thing you are all missing is not there vunrability or exposure to the elements the biggest thjng is the effect it Hashim suspension.
Remove your chain and feel how great that arse end feels
Bosch are about the make an announcement for there own gearbox for e bikes that works along with the motor and I for one look FWD to the Denise of the rear mech
Bosch are about the make an announcement for there own gearbox for e bikes that works along with the motor and I for one look FWD to the Denise of the rear mech
Denise the Derailleur? Is that the name they've given for it? I must say that it's a little old-fashioned, but I like the alliteration.
JP
Big-Bud
...Remove your chain and feel how great that arse end feels...
Good point.
The biggest thing you are all missing is not there vunrability or exposure to the elements the biggest thjng is the effect it Hashim suspension.
Remove your chain and feel how great that arse end feels
That's your free wheel not deraileur
.
trail_rat
That’s your free wheel not deraileur
I assumed he's referring to the varying effects of the chainline pull as it works its way up and down the cassette or front chainrings, ie its vertical displacement.
I know from my experience setting up dirt bikes that modifying the frame to take an eccentric spindle for the swing arm and just moving that up and down a few mm used to make a big difference. Whether that is applicable to bicycle rear suspension I don't know, but I suspect a fixed chainline position in the vertical would make suspension set up simpler.
However removing all forces from the rear wheel including chain pull would make the job much much simpler 🙂
(My reference to vertical is where the chain leaves the rear cog. Obviously there will be vertical movement due to the suspension)
I put this on the shimano gearbox thread but it probably should have been on here:
To go back to the point about drag. I strongly believe the drag is not as bad as folk make out especially once the gearbox is run in. My rohloff is still getting smoother and quieter after many years and many thousand miles of useage.
However to me it irrelevant. I am riding for fun not racing. I do not care if a 10 min climb takes 30 seconds longer or that It takes me 5 mins longer to do a 40 mile ride. It just makes no odds. I have still had the same downhills to enjoy, seen the same scenery, got to the same pub
Also one dropped chain or getting stuck in the wrong gear or a missed shift and that tiny time saving is gone
Interesting to see what happens with this
Pinkbike Article says another big manufacturer (SRAM?) have one on the way too.
I'm assuming that as the shimano patent is quite advanced bike manufacturers must be involved (eg trek always like a new standard)
Once bikes are redesigned around gearbox-especialy suspension- deraliers will disappear pretty quickly from top end bikes (Assuming that the gearbox is actually better & pro racers switch over)
Even if the derailleur could be improved on (by no means certain) in terms of shifting performance and drivetrain efficiency, there's still big question marks over weight & price.
So is the real question: "Is it worth improving on the derailleur?"
I pay around £300 or less for my MTB transmission set-up, then have to spend on average...
£80 every 18 months to two years on a new 11sp GX cassette (they are tough!)
£20 every six months on a chain
£25 each year on a chainring
£45 every three years on a new mech
So around £165 per year to keep it all running nicely, and despite not-infrequent crashing it tends to just keep working fine.
If it ain't broke.
So every year or two more than the cost of an alfline extra ? 7 or so years to pay the extra initial cost of a rohloff. ( chains, chainrings and sprockets last longer and are cheaper)
Not sure an Alfine is suitable for enduro MTB kind-of riding though?
Fancy gearboxes like Pinion seem the only real-life alternative to shifter & mech on high-end MTBs?
Its a fair price to pay for a bike that doesn't become a dog turd to ride.
At a time when we're pushing the designs of ebikes, is gearboxing really required, with the push towards ebikes and motors wouldn't it be simpler utilising this type of approach with some type of clutching in the motor?
Gearboxes to me just adds weight to one area, and bring a whole new maintenance headache, over the years things like rohloffs, gearboxes, etc have failed because there just isn't much real estate on bikes to put additional weight without causing issues to the ride characteristics, we didn't even really push moving to band driven drivetrains, so still using the tech we had 100 years ago as the drivetrain on push bikes!
get going again on the trailside; something you can’t do with a hub-gear
How do you get going again at the trailside? Pinion and Rohloff, IME just don't break in same way. They don't NEED to be trailside repairable, and they're still likely rideable. I've seen enough mechs, hangers and chains completely mangled at the trailside - pretty sure the Basque MTB guides have a spare mech with them when they're in the backcountry for this reason.
I don't think Alfine are up to trail use personally (others may differ) but they've certainly got enough range for steep hills. Even the wide range 3 speed fitted to the 6 speed Brompton has enough range for steep hills (Katie rides hers over Crystal Palace towing a trailer). Hubs definitely aren't flat terrain only on city bikes.
-Pivots get sloppy and never work perfectly even if you don’t smack them on something.
That’s not derailleurs, that’s you 🙂 I can run them just fine slop-free. And tbh even when they get sloppy
I had them and I don't think they're the best answer at the moment - I'm happy replacing my XT mech every 18 months or so at c£50 - but there are definitely times I wish I was riding my Pinion.
It's obvious that the demands people place on their kit changes and not everyones riding is the same. Yes, there was someone on here who repeatedly rode their Rohloff through rivers and had issues. The same guy had to replace the bearings in his Hope hubs every few months (!) - thats not typical UK riding by any means. I ride all year but hub bearings aren't a consumable for me.
I'm not doubting the claims but it seems inconceivable to me that you could ride for any length of time and not bend or break a mech. Obviously you can but rocky trails I ride in Cumbria, Monmouth, Dartmoor and out in Spain* regularly see mechs scraped or bent and I've seen them ripped off by sticks in the Surrey Hills.
(at some point this year I saw a Shimano mech where the main linkage plate was in bits)
Not sure an Alfine is suitable for enduro MTB kind-of riding though?
Tough as old boots is Alfine 8.
Now I may have been lucky, but mine's been over Dartmoor, Exmoor, Quantocks, BPW, Afan, etc. General summer and winter XC around Devon, and lots of winch and plummet type riding.
Plenty of PRs and Koms on Strava on that bike, so it's not holding me back.
I was just thinking last weekend that I need to do my yearly Auto fluid dip, and that's all the maintenance it needs.
2 year old sprocket and chain still going strong. I'll probably replace them in the spring.
OTOH, 2x10 Deore setup on my gravelish bike is great, and is now on its 3rd year (and about 3000km). That's great too 😉
Still prefer single speed though if it really comes down to it. Which I suppose is why I like the Alfine so much. All the benefits of SS, but with sone gears too.
TBH if you want a gearbox that shimano patent is encouraging in the same vein as the Honda and petespeed concepts (both well over 15 years in the past now) it's a practical solution that could be made at an affordable price basically using existing technologies.
The simple point being Derailleurs/cassettes work and do so with the best possible mechanical efficiency, a Derailleur in a box will of course have the extra advantage of being sealed away from the elements (possibly with its own oil bath?) to keep it running even sweeter for longer. The patent suggests the system will be electronically controlled modular and of course it will require a specific frame mounting so all new standards and parts (no backwards compatability) to help drive customers into a new bike purchase...
As already pointed out the two big S's won't lift a finger unless it helps their major OEM customers either maintain or create new market demand. E-Bikes have certainly done that in recent years, once 1x is "bottomed out" as a technology I'd expect to see gear box bikes pushed hard (maybe starting in 3-5 years or so?) the question is will there be a common mounting standard or will customers be push into making a shimano vs SRAM decision again...
I still think derailleurs are plenty good enough as a solution for 95% of MTB applications so expect the marketing to be laid on extra thick in MBR... 😉
ajantom
...Still prefer single speed though if it really comes down to it. Which I suppose is why I like the Alfine so much. All the benefits of SS, but with some gears too.
Pretty much my position.
I amazed at how few here have had derailleur problems. The trailside evidence on any trail frequented by mtbs suggests that someone is, and on any lap of the StrathPuffer there's usually someone with a dead derailleur cunningly mingling with the spokes.*
I don't see racers changing anytime soon. Current derailleurs are light and efficient, and the riders are skilful. Perhaps DH may be the first because just about every event there's some unfortunate whose run ends in a chainless descent.
*Less so since clutches came in.
I took my alfine equipped bike to solo the strathpuffer. Now i ain't no racer but I made a decent job of it and one of the things it gave me was a bombproof bike even tho I undergeared it to a ridiculous amount. It was the year of the deep snow and I had zero mechanical issues of any sort.
Hub gears done properly simply are tough.
Again I think a part of this is how you see your bike. to me its like a landrover - a tool to take me to out of the way places with minimal hassle. To others its like a lancia stratos - a machine to go as fast as possible offroad.
Aye there's more chance of racers adopting singlespeed than the current crop of hub options.
but it seems inconceivable to me that you could ride for any length of time and not bend or break a mech
In 30 odd years of riding off road, in all conditions and in locations all over the world, I've never bent or broken a mech. The worst I've ever managed is a few scraps on the body. I've replaced more jockey wheels than mechs, and I would say my experience is in no way unique amongst the folk I've ridden with either. IME they aren't fragile in a way that makes me want to look for an alternative.
In 30 odd years of riding off road, in all conditions and in locations all over the world, I’ve never bent or broken a mech. The worst I’ve ever managed is a few scraps on the body. I’ve replaced more jockey wheels than mechs, and I would say my experience is in no way unique amongst the folk I’ve ridden with either. IME they aren’t fragile in a way that makes me want to look for an alternative.
That pretty much sums up my experience too. I did bend a mech hanger once on a road bike that got blown over in the wind.
it seems inconceivable to me that you could ride for any length of time and not bend or break a mech
Says more about your riding style and finesse than of the mech tbh.
Which is why you are willing to live with the losses in a epicyclic gearbox.
Like wise tj. All the losses are lost (march) in the noise of the tandem.
Om a striped back race bike it's there --its 100% noticeable and it's piss annoying. More so than 1 rear mech every 10 years that my current tally of busted mechs lies at.