[Closed] Has MTB innovation reached a dead end ?

We've been saying this for, ohh, 20 years now. 😉

Most things have now been invented, yes, but the evoultion won't stop..... 🙂

EDIT
Anyway SFB, I didn't think you cared about bikes? 😉

they're just bikes, what were you expecting?

I'm working on the self-cleaning bike that once its got itself sparkling and lubed, then pours me a glass of Shiraz and makes me cheese on toast by the time I'm out of the shower

I guess suspension designs have come on a long way, and quality of materials. A lot of "improvements" might just be PR nonsense, like the idea of "superspace age materials" and the elusive "frictionless bearings".

my vote has to be lock on grips though. as a late convert, and a previous master of hairspray then cable ties then having grips slip off on fast, rainy, scottish singletrack, these things are magic.

I reckon we'll see gearbox bikes along with some serious efforts to reduce unsprung weight in full sus bikes. It's obviously already on the way, and it'll make a massive difference to maintenance and the responsiveness of suspension systems.

As above, the evolution is slow, but if you look at a bike in 10 years there will be a marked difference I'm sure, especially in the materials used.
Carbon Fibre technology will come on a fair bit and most likely become more affordable too.

Anyway SFB, I didn't think you cared about bikes?

not particularly no, this just came into my head while I was thinking about the expensive fork thing. I'm interested in reliability where it translates into 'surviving neglect' - but that doesn't seem to get much of a look-in 🙁

what were you expecting?

I'm not expecting anything other than riding them. I don't see lack of innovation as a bad thing provided they work properly. I suppose I'm decrying the constant incremental 'refinement' just to stimulate sales

With the invention of electricity, I can see electronically powered brakes and gears being developed very soon.

Snakebite and I finished our ride last Thursday night over Cannock Chase and I said pretty much the same thing to him. Our bikes just did what we needed of them and our lights allowed us to go as fast as we wanted.

Having been involved in mountain biking and windsurfing (recreationally) and commercial IT applications (professionally) for over 25 years I can see the same patterns. All of these were emerging technologies at first, with a huge rate of change and loads of developmental blind alleys. Now we've reached a position where all the basics are understood, there are very few (bikes, boards, sails, apps - insert as appropriate) that won't do the job, and the manufacturers have to find new ways of getting us to part with our cash.

Or it could just be that SFB and I are getting old and prefer the riding to the lure of shiny stuff.

I suppose I'm decrying the constant incremental 'refinement' just to stimulate sales

Have a read of Schumpeter's stuff on innovation & creative destruction. As a rule, we see pretty steady improvements, with revolutionary stuff happening on a far rarer basis.

Depends what you mean by 'innovation', and how and where you ride.

I'd venture geometry changes, bolt through forks, larger diameter stantions, dropper seatposts, and tubeless wheel setups. Whether you feel the advantage of any of those is of course dependent on how and where you ride, as I said.

I reckon we'll see gearbox bikes

Huh, tried that and found it wanting 🙁

As a rule, we see pretty steady improvements

changes yes, but improvements ?

With the invention of electricity, I can see electronically powered brakes and gears being developed very soon.

that will continue to work when wet ? "Oh, I can't ride, my bike needs charging..."

I'd venture geometry changes

bolt through forks

larger diameter stantions

dropper seatposts

and tubeless wheel setups

hmmm, some seem to swear by tubeless, others say it's crap

I think as people we are becoming less "hardy" and more suited to the easier life with modern luxuries.

I can see people becoming sick of the effort involved with mountain biking, traipsing round some rainswept yorkshire moor on a Sunday afternoon when they could be at home watching the LCD.

I imagine the bike of the future to be an air conditioned, transparent, fully crash proof "cyclopod" where the cyclist can sit and enjoy the ride in comfort.

The problem with bikes is that the basic design is too good. The chain is so efficient gearboxes don't come close. Rear mechs aren't perfect but when not changing gear they add very little resistance. There's been over 100 years of people trying to improve bikes and so far all we've had is the C5, plus modern versions.
For 99.9% of riders, the current bike (maybe the Gocycle, but only going on what it looks like, I haven't ridden one) is still one of the best inventions ever. For the rest of us, there may be a few tweeks but again, what we have is pretty well perfect.

Innovation you say?

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Slow speed damping/pedal platforms allowing more than a couple of inches travel on trail bikes, air sprung shocks, dropping seatposts, hydroformed tubing and twin ring chainguides. Nothing groundbreaking and mostly existing products applied to biking but so were disc brakes and suspension. IIRC the only inventions that were specifically for the bicycle were the pneumatic tyre and derailleur gears so no groundbreaking innovation for years.

what we have is pretty well perfect.

I would question that in terms of stuff wearing out far too quickly, but that's not much of a sales point, so unlikley to attract much engineering support 🙁

Binners, how much for the shiraz bike? I'll take two.

Its all academic anyway. They could invent bikes with thought controlled gearboxes, traction controlled 2 wheel drive and on-board blow jobs and you lot would still ride some weird steel singlespeed 29er 😛

Innovations that have genuinely moved riding on (in my time, say last 25 years):

indexed gears
spds
suspension
disc brakes

Next step has to be gearboxes or similar IMO.

Gary. I'm having slight teething problems. It keeps forgetting the Worcestor sauce and has recently developed a penchant for Merlot. Which... as we all know is a brute of a grape

Yep. Once the gears get sorted we're done.

😀

I think they will invent a lightweight and simple way of storing the kinetic energy that is currently lost from both braking and being sucked up by suspension and storing it so that you can then either release it when you need a boost - kind of like a bike nitro or maybe use it for charging battery devices such as lights, gps, smartphones etc.

Upside down forks.
Common on motorcycles now, so why are they so rare on bicycles ?

Hub gears.
If they could be made light, cheap and efficient they would take over from derailleurs.

since disc brakes the following has changed my riding.

waterproof jacket, not shower resistant, not starts waterproofish but doesnt last but a real and easily maintainable waterproof jacket.

lights - small neat lights of acceptable weight, good burn times, great light output.

tubeless wheels/tyres - i live in a flinty, hawthorn and bramble filled world. The time i used to spend fixing tubes i can now preach the UST gosple on STW.

As it has become more popular the manufactures have made lots of small imporvemnts all round. They are competing for your money afterall. (some are marketing bollocks, but most bikes now are better than they were 10 years ago generally).

As for groundbreaking - I dont see anything, just continued small improvements down to better materials being used. Gearboxes are not needed as the std setup copes well enough.

I would just like stuff to last longer and weigh less and cost less - oh and Id like the moon on a stick as well please.

Bicycles and Tricycles: An Elementary Treatise on Their Design and Construction
Archibald Sharp only had so many ideas that could be recycled over the years.

Gearboxes are not needed as the std setup copes well enough.

On a FS bike, there are issues with the chain tension altering depending on the gear you're in, and the entire cassette / freehub / rear mech assembly is a fair chunk of unsprung weight, which reduces the performance of the suspension.

It'll come in from DH, and as soon as the price / reliability compromise is right, the whole world and his dog will want one, given that you'll be able to lose all the above parts and a chainring & mech.

gearboxes and beltdrives are what im hoping for

uppydowny seatposts once reliability issues are sorted
bikes and components have got stiffer and stronger over the years, you just dont realise it now because our riding has got more aggressive/ ive put on more weight
i mean could you imagine riding a 1990s rigid hardtail with v brakes or even an elastomer sprung fork down the megavalanche course?!

Playing Devil's Advocate for a second, it can be argued that cameras and electric guitars/amplifiers reached their design pinnacle about 50 years ago - yes, cameras have gone digital, but the basic design remains the same, we've just replaced film with a sensor. All the additional bits and bobs added since then are just fripperies.

Bike design may go the same way - electronically controlled suspension, riding mode/travel switches, automatically adjustable terrain-dependant geometry etc.
I'm sure tyres will get stickier and longer lasting, various other incremental design improvements will be made, but I reckon that might just be it for a good few years.

I think there may be more innovation in our riding gear than our bikes over the next few years TBH.

it can be argued that cameras and electric guitars/amplifiers reached their design pinnacle about 50 years ago

I'm not buying THAT!! Digital allows anyone to take as many shots as they like and see the results straight away, encouraging experimentation without massive cost, and 'digital darkrooms' are massively quicker than splashing about in the dark!

Polaroids let you see photo's pretty instantly too. And are COOL!

High powered LEDs with decent battery run-times - has unlocked the world of night riding.

Tunable suspension damping, esp. on forks - can retain control at high speeds where rigid forks imposed a speed limit to avoid your eyeballs rattling out.

I think there's a lot gone on in frame design and materials but it's harder for a layman cyclist to pick it out.

Simon, the basic design architecture of a DSLR today is exactly the same as the first SLR's of the 50's and 60's.

I agree with you that digital is far more convenient than film, but it hasn't changed the fundamental design of the camera.

Whether subjective picture quality has improved is a discussion for another time 😀

I agree with you that digital is far more convenient than film, but it hasn't changed the fundamental design of the camera.

I'm not asking about [b]fundamental[/b] design...

Isn't it about time someone reinvented the wheel?

No but I was talking about basic design, as stated in my first post, as well you know.

I've broken my first rule of Singletrack again haven't I? 🙂

Tunable suspension damping, esp. on forks - can retain control at high speeds where rigid forks imposed a speed limit to avoid your eyeballs rattling out.

I've been riding more and more without any suspension, to get the same thrill at a lower velocity to reduce the opportunity of a career limiting injury.. as my bikes have got better I've just ridden them faster till I get the same effect on control and lungs.

Last revolution in guitar tech was amp modelling really - that's just reproducing sounds that are years old in a more convenient format. No bad thing but not revolutionary I'd say other than for my back 🙂

Has MTB innovation reached a dead end ?

In some ways, I hope it has. It's more of a distraction than a pleasure. I like stuff that works well (most stuff does now), doesn't need much fettling and lasts ages (that's the hard part).

Agreed. If they stopped trying to puff the latest whizz-bang same difference they might concentrate on value for money instead!

Probably the biggest innovation in the last 15 years has been in the terrain we now ride. I was thinking as I rode up a hugely horrible climb on my 32lb 6" travel AM full suss last week that even when I was the Scottish MTB champion I could not ride my 24lb hardtail up this bas&*rd; and yet I'm less fit now but I made it to the top with a heavier bike and no dabs (yes, I could have walked it but I ain't no soft southern jessie, if it can be ridden it has to be).

I didn't have much time to think about the same on the descent but back in the day it really was a struggle on the race hardtail with many sections that needed walking... once again the big bike worked it's magic and the descent while still difficult was brilliant and I rode it all.

Oh how we laughed at Proflex and the other first suspension bikes... it will never catch on... disc brakes are heavy and you don't need all that power... SPD's will never replace clips and straps... thumbshifters are the best... elastomers are all you need for suspension... 2" inch travel is enough for world cup DH... you don't need a bigger tyre than 1.9".

We still have a load of roady orientated out of date bits and pieces that could do with some innovation. I snapped a saddle the other day... would not have happened with the I-Beam on my other bike.

HammerSchmidt is awesome - make it lighter please?
I've not gone for a droppy seatpost yet but I probably will soon once they get more reliable (I hate rattles on my bikes).

I'm not for going back and I watch each year for the little things that are real improvements... (although I do enjoy riding my 20 lb rigid singlespeed just as much as my other bikes) It's all bikes and it's all great.

Probably the biggest innovation in the last 15 years has been in the terrain we now ride

Pardon ?? Do you mean the terrain the latest bikes allow you to ride ?? When I switched back to a hardtail I carried on riding the same stuff I'd ridden on my full suss bike without really noticing much difference - though admittedly that might reflect my lack of skill 🙂