[Closed] Gravel / road passing etiquette vs MTB

Some people are dicks. If they're riding on your wheel without letting you know or riding so close to you it's not your fault. Although it's a good idea to have a regular look round to see what's around you.

If you are carrying out any manoeuvres on the road then you should be looking behind you before doing so.

If you are carrying out any manoeuvres on the road then you should be looking behind you before doing so.

As a defensive measure maybe, but that doesn’t in any way diminish the fact that anyone who just sits a stranger’s wheel is a weapons-grade asshole who’s sooner or later going to cause a crash. It’s clearly a dick move to be that close in cars, it’s no less a dick move to do it on bikes.

And surely you can’t claim that you look behind every time you move two inches around a pothole. If you did that round here you’d be straight into the next pothole.

I've had occasional occurrences of total strangers trying to sit on my back wheel unannounced. It's a bit odd but maybe road cyclists are used to it?

I have no problem with strangers sitting on my wheel but then I am able to point out problems and ride in an sensible manner. Cant say I ever recall a rider, sneaking up on me. I have sometimes spent a few kms pointing out potholes to riders who were not on my wheel anymore though.

They were in blindspot inline with my real mech

The follower shouldn't be overlapping wheels though, that's just stupid riding.

If you are carrying out any manoeuvres on the road then you should be looking behind you before doing so.

this - urban riding I will be looking behind me about every 10 - 15 seconds.

Never happened to me in decades of riding on road. I always call rider back so as not to startle them.
I’ve caught the odd group and asked to for a tow for a couple of km’s. I’ve also had an annoying experience where the guy I overtook didn’t like it and tried to “race” me. I ride to a power meter so just decided to let him go ahead, but he was crap on every hill so kept catching him.
Insurance wise I’m a member of British Cycling so covered by their insurance. I pay £78 a year and it includes my race licence. For non racers £44 a year gets you liability insurance and legal support. I’ve never needed to use it.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership

Cycling UK membership is worth it if only for the insurance protection. Been a few stories of uninsured cyclists in London being taken to the cleaners after an incident.

When I overtake bikes I give as much room as I do if in my car which to me seems sensible.
Since moving back to a low geared SS MTB overtaking bikes on the road is a thing of the past except up hill so not something I have to worry about any more.

I was just thinking the other day that there hadn't been a "why don't roadies say hello" thread for a while.

Can't say I've ever had it happen to me, usually there's a "hi" or similar. Also if it's a local rider they are likely to know which are potholed roads so will sit back a little to allow you to point them out.

I usually sit back a fair bit and wait for the right moment to pass quickly with plenty of room, would expect most decent riders to do the same.

I never get anyone try to sit on my wheel, if I did I’d either pick it up a bit and get rid or ease off and let them on their way.

It is generally considered bad etiquette to sit on a wheel without announcing yourself. You change your riding style when there are people on your wheel as they have no time to react and can't see in front very well. If I don't know a rider I won't follow them as it relies hugely on trust.

It still happens though, I think some people just assume it's ok. I see it as the equivalent of being tailgated in the car.

Totally inappropriate to pass a stranger that closely and unnanounced in my opinion. Thankfully it only happens occasionally and it's definitely not accepted etiquette. It's stupid and dangerous.

If I approach another cyclist from behind then I ring my bell to let them know I am there. Seems pretty simple to me.

If I overtake a rider who is not a lot slower I will ease a little to let them get on my wheel, obviously I say hello too. If a rider overtakes me who is not a lot faster I may or may not get on their wheel. I don't see it as an issue either way tbh. Say hi and get on with your day.

Surely people don’t want to come too close with COVID kicking about? Potential for a nose clearance etc. I’ve being doing the same as Kerley - just sitting off and waiting for a nice clear chance to pass wide enough.

Big Lols from me yesterday when I pulled over on a ride to text the wife. A 50 something on a dogma and all the gear was struggling a bit on the flat head down with a similarly aged commuter with neon helmet cover and chinos sat up about 2mm from his rear wheel!! Haha!

On the rare occasions I catch a rider on the road, I hang back a couple of bike lengths till I can give them a clear overtake and say hello as I pull out, same as I would off road I guess.

Don't think I've ever had someone sneak onto my wheel. If I know someone is approaching from behind I'll start to signal hazards as I would on a group ride.

A few times I've been caught by a group and if we are close in pace they've invited me to jump on the back of their line to have a tow for a bit - Belper CC are friendly about this on the A6.

I'm with Cycling UK for liability insurance and legal expenses cover, awaiting settlement of a claim actually. If you cause a crash while cycling then you are legally liable, same as any other act of negligence, but far more cyclists make claims than are claimed against, I suspect.

If I don’t know a rider I won’t follow them as it relies hugely on trust.

There's a few I know well and don't trust!!!

Rider in front has the right to do what he wants, rider behind is responsible for his own and the rider in fronts wellbeing until he eventually is alongside, then its 50-50.

Different rules apply if you are riding in an arranged group.

Regarding the insurance. The cycling club I'm in (and believe many other clubs are the same) insist that you have some form of 3rd party insurance (usually British Cycling membership or Cycling UK) if you want to become a member and take part in group rides. If you cause a crash that is your fault with another rider or multiple riders, they could be left out of pocket with thousands of pounds of damage to bikes.

Also if you don't have insurance and you cause an accident with a motorist they can claim off you personally.

My advice is Take out some cycle insurance. They also provide legal cover so in the event of you being in a non fault accident they will look after you.

Additionally the likes of British Cycling membership provides you with discounts to certain things. So it can work out that you can save the cost of membership on savings you have made throughout the year

Etiquette? Talking about similar speed riders here, but overtaking someone has to look effortless particularly if it's not. And if overtaken (guessing here as it obv never happens) perhaps say something about nice day for a recovery ride, whist trying not to gasp?

Makes sense now I know all the road groups require insurance. British Cycling seems way forward. Cheers.

No way I’m looking behind me every 10 seconds riding on London roads for a 5-10cm shift. Way too many car drivers changing lane or pulling out without looking or indicating but that I’m prepped to expect.

It’s the cyclists tailgating that I don’t understand. View view is overtake or don’t overtake but don’t sit on ass. One person mentioned power meter and tying to stay consistent which is cool if you shout or ring bell but how many people can that be. Damn the silent slipstreamers 😂

I aspire to be someone who is fast enough for someone to want to follow my wheel. Normally I get a reasonable hello and a look of pity at my ridiculously slow speed. I’m fine with that though, I like to look at the pretty flowers and birds.

I find that people do sit-on when road riding sometimes which I don't mind but its just a bit weird if they don't say hello or hi.

I rarely bother myself though unless I get chatting to someone at the lights or whatever, usually hang back and then pick a point to overtake. I mean I picked the route on the basis that I felt I could at least finish it, so I don't see a huge benefit from drafting someone for 5mins

Anyone thinking a power meter justifies them riding dangerously close to someone else needs to confine themselves to a velodrome and get off the roads.

I once had a guy jump in to my back wheel as I overtook him. He didn’t say anything but I knew he was there. He followed me for miles up little back roads. I was heading to a hill climb race and had to climb to the top of the hill to register and pick up my number. Obviously not going hard saving my legs for the event. The guy disappeared at that point after following me through back roads for around 20 miles without saying a word. Weird behaviour.

Anyway liability insurance is a must in my opinion. I have British Cycling Gold membership. Silver covers you too. I’ve used it a few times and it’s been excellent. Paid for itself a thousand times over.

Another point is British Cycling won’t cover you for claiming against another BC cyclist. In my opinion if you ride in a bunch you are accepting the risk and it should be knock for knock.

on the rare occasions i catch someone up I will pull along side and say hello, gauge the response friendly stay for a chat, otherwise ride on.

Anyone thinking a power meter justifies them riding dangerously close to someone else needs to confine themselves to a velodrome and get off the roads.

Who said it did?

I would never sit on a stranger’s wheel, it's an absolute dick move.
Unless you have been suddenly gifted with telepathic skills, you have no idea what is going to/could happen next .
TJ you really need to invest in a mirror before your neck fails.

I've only had one instance on the road when someone caught me up and sat on my wheel unannounced without my noticing. They weren't pleased when I braked suddenly to dive down a bridleway. In my view, if they were reasonably sure that I hadn't noticed them by looking around etc then the onus is on them to expect the unexpected.

I mentioned a power meter, pretty sure I’m the only person on the thread who did.....I meant it in regards of knowing my power hadn’t increased to catch someone.
I also said I give a “rider back” shout when overtaking so as not to startle anyone.

What about etiquette regarding what side of a cycle path or similar, do you stick to? I always stay left, as we would on roads, and most people seem to get this, but you get the odd spanner, such as one bloke yesterday, who don't seem to understand this. It's common sense, in my mind.

Who said it did?

No-one, I think, but sillysilly appeared to interpret something that way and partially accept it as a justification, which seemed unreasonably generous to me. My point was just a general one, not aimed at anyone 🙂

What about etiquette regarding what side of a cycle path or similar, do you stick to?

Ah but that brings in the whole question of the inevitable dog walkers, runners, kids etc sharing most "cycle paths" in the UK.

Dog walker <---m a s s i v e e x t e n d i n g d o g l e a d---> dog

How can ONE person and ONE small dog take up the ENTIRE sodding trail?!

Living on the outskirts of SW London we have high volumes of riders at hotspots like Richmond Park, Box Hill (and other popular SH areas), riding the loop round Regent's Park is insane at the weekend on the couple of times I've done it.  Picking up drafters and overtaking others is pretty common.  I quite regularly check over my shoulder, and I've developed a 6th sense for a back wheel passenger, if they're quicker they'll generally pass anyway.  If they want to sit I'm good with that and will signal as appropriate (I'm no hero but ride at a pace which would mean that anyone who has caught me 'should' be a reasonably decent rider), I'll also happily exchange drafts if the other rider wants too (generally speaking someone who wants to do this is a competent rider).  I don't ever recall someone calling 'rider' behind me, and I don't really recall doing so myself.  I always give plenty of room for a pass, and won't sit on the wheel of someone slower as I like to ride at my own pace if solo. I'll also generally say hi as I pass.

Personally speaking I've had more issues with mtb'ers on singletrack (and these days mostly eebs which are seemingly often ridden by complete cockwombles dressed as MXers I'm sad to say) charging up behind and sitting almost buzzing the rear tyre aggressively in the hope I'll ride into a bush so they can charge off.

I don't get people sneaking up behind. They generally just whizz straight by. When overtaking I do think it's a good idea to give a warning (bikes are pretty quiet) either by saying something or using a bell and allowing plenty of room.

I always stay left, as we would on roads, and most people seem to get this

Not in my experience. I assumed so, rather naturally, after moving to UK. Been proved wrong on multiple occasions. By casual and what looks like regular riders...

Cheers!
I.

As far as I’m aware the “rules” apply to all ways, not just carriageways, so keeping left is the technically correct approach even in bridleways etc.

Obviously that doesn’t really happen consistently in reality so you need to be pragmatic, but it makes sense to default to keeping left.

Keep left is common sense & seems normal for 99% of people but every so often you encounter an idiot doing the opposite.
They even put signs up for them but they don't think it applies to them
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I do the same as when MTB'ing: "coming through on your right" or similar. Not that keen on people that I don't ride with a lot sitting on my wheel, but OK if they say hello and need a tow. I can think of only one person I trust enough to ride on his wheel, and we've ridden together for 15 years on and off, including track.

The worst thing for me is when you pass someone and they get all competitive and speed up. I had this two weeks ago, passed a rider who had pulled in for something, I slowed to pass some horses a few miles later and he came tearing past us all. I then caught and passed him at a junction, only for him to come past again huffing and puffing so I sat back for a few miles until he blew up. Needless to say I felt like a total hero.

The worst thing for me is when you pass someone and they get all competitive and speed up.

Pet hate of mine.

I'm doing my own ride at my own pace. Me overtaking is not a challenge, an insult or an invitation to a race.
I long ago stopped jumping on the wheels of overtaking riders unless they specifically invited - maybe a cycle club overtaking and saying "jump on if you want". Even then I'm quite wary of it, I know just how bad some group riding skills can be!

Maybe he was doing intervals?

^^^ I have been that person doing sprint intervals and come across other riders who I pass on a sprint then they come pass on a recovery split then I pass again on a sprint. Normally I think it’s pretty obvious what I’m up to; especially if it’s near the end and I’m red and messy, but I will say to them that I’m on intervals if I get a chance. On a normal ride I’ll just call out a friendly greeting as I come up to pass. Don’t mind wheel suckers if I know them, everyone can have off days and a wheel can be a saviour.

Maybe he was doing intervals?

Maybe but I doubt it, as above it's normally pretty easy to spot folks on intervals. Certainly the way he shot past me and two horse riders made me wonder about his personality type.

If someone else passes me and I think I can hold them then my normal response would be to match their pace but stay 50-100 yards back. Enough to not be on their tail, but holding out for that moment when they’re finally confident that they’re far enough ahead that they can ease off and look over their shoulder at a clear road. At which point you grin and step on it. But then I am an evil bastard 🙂

To be fair these days I mostly don’t have that option. I got passed by three people last weekend and even though I was feeling ok (by the low standards of recent years) there’s not much you can do about it on a singlespeed.

my normal response would be to match their pace stay 50 yards back—enough to not be on their tail, but holding out for that moment when they’re finally confident that they’re far enough ahead that they can ease off and look over their shoulder at a clear road. At which point you grin and step on it.

Juvenile behaviour and male (I'm going to guess) competitiveness at its worst. If you've not both got numbers you're not racing. And I fully intend to grow out of doing exactly the same sometime before my 60s.

Yeah I do ride intervals fairly often and feel quite self-conscious about blasting past people and then having them catch me 5mins later when I'm soft-pedaling at a crawl. Even worse if 30 seconds after that I have to step on the gas again.

Feel like I should procure custom jersey with "INTERVALS" written on the back of it or something.

And I fully intend to grow out of doing exactly the same sometime before my 60s.

Don’t try and pretend that the truth isn’t “I’m already struggling to do this and I know it won’t be long before I just have to admit defeat and pretend I was never interested in this damned game.” And you won’t need to ask how I know that’s the truth 😉

As a complete Roady for years I don't get the worry about people being on your wheel. Not urban though as I think op was talking about, that's daft. I also don't understand why if someone comes past a bit quicker you wouldn't get on their wheel for a bit and share the work. I can leave a bigger gap than I would with someone I trust and I'll soon decide if I can either not keep up or don't like their riding.

If someone else passes me and I think I can hold them then my normal response would be to match their pace but stay 50-100 yards back. Enough to not be on their tail, but holding out for that moment when they’re finally confident that they’re far enough ahead that they can ease off and look over their shoulder at a clear road. At which point you grin and step on it. But then I am an evil bastard

And this is just plain strange!

Lots of interesting views here. My learnings are:

* Get insurance.

* If someone is tailgating for no good reason and hits my wheel I will treat it as a car accident. They put themselves in the predicament and only have themselves to blame. I am too nice if I give them the benefit of the doubt on seeing a power meter.

* If someone is in a bib / funny hat combo and doing sprints, overtaking me quickly, then slowing down then that's all good with me... As long as they don't sit on my wheel. They are doing it for a reason.

* Those bike rule signs should be everywhere 🙂

* Do I need backup insurance for my insurance in case a BCA member decides to take me out Hmmmmmm.

* Can't wait to be able to travel for a proper off-road ride.

As far as I’m aware the “rules” apply to all ways, not just carriageways, so keeping left is the technically correct approach even in bridleways etc.

Obviously that doesn’t really happen consistently in reality so you need to be pragmatic, but it makes sense to default to keeping left.

But where are these 'rules'? I'm not sure they exist in any concrete form. And that's the problem. Another issue is people from overseas, where everyone drives on the right, so they have got used to cycling on the right. Takes a while to adjust. I've almost come a cropper in several other countries! 😀

I also don’t understand why if someone comes past a bit quicker you wouldn’t get on their wheel for a bit and share the work.

For me, partly because I don't know them well enough to ride right on their wheel, where you get a decent rest, but mostly because I'm riding to get stronger and sitting on a wheel isn't helping that.

There's also the view - I ride mostly nice country lanes so I'd rather look at a nice landscape than a lycra clad arse!

But where are these ‘rules’?

Er, the Highway Code. Rule 160.

There’s also the view – I ride mostly nice country lanes so I’d rather look at a nice landscape than a lycra clad arse!

Depends on the arse, mine is fabulous!!

For me, partly because I don’t know them well enough to ride right on their wheel, where you get a decent rest

You don't need to ride right on someone's wheel to get a good effect. You can ride offset a bit and leave a decent gap and save energy

On MTB trails if I catch someone up (ie a descent) then I will stop and wait for them to clear. unless they are really, really slow, when I normally ask if they would mind pulling over in the next decent place.
I do not think any rider has the right to demand another rider perturb their course though, so I try to ask as respectfully as possible. Nothing pisses me off more than when I am on a blue trail somewhere with my kids and some arse shouts rider and expects everyone to scatter whilst he gets his best time.

Road biking on the other hand, sounds complex...

On MTB trails if I catch someone up (ie a descent) then I will stop and wait for them to clear. unless they are really, really slow, when I normally ask if they would mind pulling over in the next decent place.
I do not think any rider has the right to demand another rider perturb their course though, so I try to ask as respectfully as possible. Nothing pisses me off more than when I am on a blue trail somewhere with my kids and some arse shouts rider and expects everyone to scatter whilst he gets his best time.

Road biking on the other hand, sounds complex…

You've hit the key difference. On a trail, the rider behind is the stronger rider as they have managed to catch up. No the catchee doesnt have to immediately leap clear to stop the other person slowing, but at least some acknowledgment is nice.

On the road (steep climbs excluded) the leader is the stronger rider, and the unwanted follower is "weaker" as they are getting a tow. Of course, they managed to catch up in the first place, making it all the more odd.

Sounds like you just go a twerp behind you. Most riders overtake at the same width as a car. Wheel sucking without asking is just rude and should be treated as such. If you catch someone, it's generally polite to sit off the wheel to the side so more visible - sometimes it's not possible to go straight past without powering past - also looking like a d**k.

Depend where you live and ride. Some areas are rife for wheel sucking ****ttery (looking at you London Dynamo), others not so much.

As for the saying hi - there was a thread once that said saying hi while cruising past was considered bad form, either way, I generally go for the lift of the hand on the bar and wave/acknowledge.

I don’t get the worry about people being on your wheel.

Because your safety is in their hands. I will never allow anyone I do not know and trust to sit on my wheel and I have called folk out for it before. I usually do the same as when i am driving - just slow down until they pass.

The worst thing for me is when you pass someone and they get all competitive and speed up. I had this two weeks ago, passed a rider who had pulled in for something, I slowed to pass some horses a few miles later and he came tearing past us all. I then caught and passed him at a junction, only for him to come past again huffing and puffing so I sat back for a few miles until he blew up. Needless to say I felt like a total hero.

Ooh I ****ing hate that. Go past me, no problem. Then, as I'm keeping to my own steady rhythm, they slow down, so I pass again, then repeat. And each time I pass them, I need to speed up just a little to be able to pull in and avoid being right out in the middle of the road. Really ****ing irritating. Also, a more 'urban' thing; people at lights, who make a point of elbowing their way through to the front of a 'queue' of cyclists, then when the lights change, wobble away really slowly, in a high gear, holding us all up. So we all have to then get past them. Only to then have them do exactly the same thing at the next set of lights. ****s.

Because your safety is in their hands. I will never allow anyone I do not know and trust to sit on my wheel and I have called folk out for it before

Exactly. I just pull over, and tell them to pass me or **** off. I can't abide having some total stranger sitting right on my back wheel, especially on busy roads. So dangerous. ****ing roadies.

Exactly. I just pull over, and tell them to pass me or * off. I can’t abide having some total stranger sitting right on my back wheel, especially on busy roads. So dangerous. * roadies.

Just bunnyhop the next pothole you come across. Problem solved 😉

Just bunnyhop the next pothole you come across. Problem solved 😉

And the offroad equivilent... I would never do the following outside of a XC race situation...
take the deliberate difficult line, jump some roots, pump hard right into something etc. Listen to them drop back as they mess it up.

When I'm the follower in this situation, I stay a few metres back, lets me conserve energy, spot the obstacles, and I get a little run up when the next passing place appears, just like driving a car.

I sit on people's wheels and they sit on mine all the time, completely normal part of roady culture round here. When we get to a town we all leave a bit more space, back on the open road and the gap's reduced.

As for the saying hi – there was a thread once that said saying hi while cruising past was considered bad form

Really? Maintaining good form must be a right PITA.

I sit on people’s wheels and they sit on mine all the time,

Yes, but at the very least you need to let them know that you are doing it & to see if they object.

Just bunnyhop the next pothole you come across. Problem solved

I did once 'brake test' the idiot sitting right on my wheel. But then I felt bad for him almost losing control and crashing. Fortunately, he didn't, but I wouldn't do that again. Much rather pull over and let them past, than do something deliberately that might cause them injury. He didn't get back on my wheel again though.

I've had a few people silently slide onto my rear wheel when I've not been riding hard or paying attention. It really bugs me. If you're fast enough to catch up, then overtake, don't sit in my draft and say nothing.

I have to confess that on the occasion that I've noticed this without turning around (shadow or clatter of someone elses bike) I will gradually increase speed without obviously doing so and will power up hills without leaving the saddle until one of us cracks.

I had a chap do it on the BBRP just a few weeks ago so did this and broke the tow. He kept up with me but was a good 400-500m back. I'm delighted to say that when he finally introduced himself as we got into Bath, he was so exhausted that he could barely talk. I'd had a few seconds to compose myself and appear (I really wasn't) nonchalant.

there was a thread once that said saying hi while cruising past was considered bad form

Oh, a whole thread full of sore losers 🙂

I did once ‘brake test’ the idiot sitting right on my wheel.

Not sure who is the bigger idiot tbh.

This weekend A bloke caught me on a slight down hill, I caught him on the next rise sat on for a bit, he seemed happy enough and signalled hazards etc. I sat offset and further back than normal. Followed him for about 500m then we turned different ways I said enjoy your ride. Are we both idiots?

I’d rather look at a nice landscape than a lycra clad arse!

I've been single so long that I'll take the view of the arse.

Oh, a whole thread full of sore losers 🙂

Pretty much! 😂 I think in fairness, it was on road.cc which probably tells you all you need to know!

I always pass (same or opposing directions) with a nod of the head, wave of the hand or an ‘areet’! Think it’s quite rude not to acknowledge other riders depending on situation. Don’t have to say hi, as sometimes especially when climbing you’re breathing out your backside!

Probably upsets those who take ‘the rules’ seriously rather than light hearted entertainment!

I always pass (same or opposing directions) with a nod of the head, wave of the hand or an ‘areet’!

Me too. I have observed that the cyclists most likely to ignore me are mtbers.

I have to say there just seems to be a lot of miss-understanding on this thread.

I don't consider myself a seasoned Roadie but I understand the basics of drafting/being drafted and sharing the work in a small group/pair or with a total stranger, it makes total sense IMO. You don't really need a whole conversation and introductions/resumes you just read the rider, their body language and movement on the bike, give a nod if/smile if they look round, you and can normally tell pretty quickly how things will/won't work...

If you pass me (because I was dawdling or you've been sitting on my wheel for a mile already or whatever) and I reckon I can hold your wheel for that free 20% aero benefit I will. If I can't I'll just let you spin off into the distance. Some people want to Race, others want to tap out their pace and if you're lucky its a reasonable match for your own and you can both benefit by taking turns. I can't really see the issue.

I think it's just a bit of nooby nervousness isn't it?
Some of you are finding yourselves riding in closer proximity to other riders, where you've had more space (by necessity) on the trails and have just not dealt with this kind of thing before. different environment, different rules and practises but it's not malicious. As for shouting "On your Right!" I might off-road on the ravel bike on a bridal path but not on the road, it's generally not needed. I've seen some road groups out before where every other minor bit of information is yelled up and down the group "Car Passing!" "Pot hole!" "Junction Ahead!" it's a bloody shambles and looks more fraught than simply expecting everyone in the group to pay some attention...

Drafting with someone isn't tricky it's a minor trust exercise, just be aware of your surroundings, try to stay smooth and not be erratic, if leading point out potholes and other upcoming dangers if you can, look back and signal well ahead if you're going to make a turning, if trailing concentrate, read the rider ahead and look out for potential upcoming issues they might react to and just keep sufficiently back from their wheel, giving yourself the space you think you'll need to react if they suddenly slow/turn/brake...

its not a minor trust issue. Your safety is totally dependent on their decisions and awareness.

I don't much care for the assumptions of shared "cycle culture". I'm fine with being friendly to other people i see out on their bikes but it's not an invitation to be weird!

I've never ridden in a group and don't really want to, not interested in aero benefits and would rather not have strangers deciding to ride with me without asking.

However I will sometimes speed up and see if I can keep up with people that overtake me (at a distance). It's not posturing it's just fun.

I think it’s just a bit of nooby nervousness isn’t it?

I guess we're all less awesome than you.

Drafting with someone isn’t tricky it’s a minor trust exercise

Well, the original question involved someone who hadn’t even made their presence known, so in that case it can’t possibly be a minor trust issue if there’s apparently no-one there to put trust in.

If both people know the score and are happy to accept the risks posed by each other then that’s another thing, but whether it’s wise is another questions till. I don’t ride I groups often, so if some random was on my tail while I’m out for a solo ride there’s a chance I might forget they’re there and stand up—which of course sends my back wheel into them and maybe over they go. My fault or theirs? I’d rather not get into it in the first place. Happy to tuck in with friends, but rarely with any old Rod, Jane or Freddy.

Drafting is like sex: fine with mutual consent, wrong without it, and risky with unknown strangers. And awkward if you unexpectedly stand up in the middle of it.

I guess we’re all less awesome than you.

He's right though. Especially about groups of gringo roadies screaming their heads off at every manhole cover.

No problem with someone sitting on my wheel on the road - nice if they let me know they're there but I'd far rather they actually sat on my wheel than slightly offside, that way I know they're not overlapping.

Wouldn't generally sit on the wheel of someone I don't know - if I've caught them then why wouldn't I simply continue past unless I was creeping into a block headwind, and I wouldn't want to make anyone uncomfortable. I'll always say hello as I pass though, as we're two humans in close proximity engaged in the same activity. Going past in silence would be weird. Since covid I probably pass competent-looking people with a bit more space than I previously did.

Off road a simple "behind you mate" if someone I've caught up with hasn't heard me seems to work. If I know someone's in front of me on a descent and I'm likely to catch them I'd rather hang back a few secs, then we both get a nice clear run.

OP's collision - quick lifesaver check over your shoulder before avoiding the hole. Granted that's not always possible but it usually is. Next time it might be a bigger, heavier moving object there.

Drafting is like sex

Maybe in your chaingang Bez, but not in mine!

<shudder>