[Closed] French Alps MTB guiding row in the Telegraph

@Trekster etc- I think the point here isn't whether or not SMBLA is brilliant- it's that it's better than the French qualifications required. As the article and the EQF assessment says, we kind of assume the French guiding qualification must be really high, but it's really pretty basic.

There's probably a good argument to make for vtt guides to be more highly qualified than the current standard. But that's a different thing entirely from the French attempt to require foreign guides to be [i]more[/i] highly qualified than French ones, and to allow French nationals to guide with a pretty entry level qualification.

stoffel - Member

In france, you need a particular qualification to do a particular job, legally. In the UK, there is no equivalent

Except for the MBLA which has been assessed by the european authority and found to be a higher qualification than the basic French one. Whether you need it to guide in the UK doesn't matter and I'm not sure why you'd think it does. What does matter is that it's been assessed and found to exceed the required standard.

Your points on Gas Safe are... weird. Gas Safe isn't a qualification at all, of course. But you dismiss the MBLA as being "concocted by a non-government organisation which has no legal weight whatsoever", when Gas Safe accept qualfications of which the exact same is true. For example the SQA is a non-governmental qualification body whose qualifications have no legal weight, but the qualifications they've concocted have been found to be sufficient to be Gas Safe registered.

And this is similiar to the process that the EQF has completed that concluded the MBLA isn't just adequate- it's better than required.

Weird
last time this came up, the lads at TA were saying

"trailAddiction WILL be offering trail guiding as part of its package(s) in 2013. Every guide which trailAddiction uses will possess a qualification explicitly recognised and accepted by the relevant French authority. "

Dunno what changed

Just bloody do the french ticket. French will be happy bunnies, you legal, end of.
If you disagree, go somewheree that accepts your current accreditation and trade there.

@juan - you are out on a limb with this "low pay" line. @stofel you are also missing out the fact that board and lodging is provided. My daughter is 12 months into a graduate programme with a major employer and after she's paid her board and lodging costs she has far left left over than a TA guide. She has a first class degree by the way in a subject directly relevant to her work.

Market forces decide someones worth in the workplace, not unions, or even governments.
Northwind is entirely correct. I'm unsure if those who can't see it are being deliberately obtuse. EU law trumps French law, just as it does here and that's just the way it is. The french don't have a leg to stand on and I hope it does go to the courts.

I hope it goes to the courts and the minimum standard is brought up to the level of the SLMBA.

I would have though that 350 is pretty good considering the perks .
a lot of seasonal jobs are a lot less than that .

It's nice to see TA advertising Neil Donahughe working illegally in France on the internet.
Well done that man.

Nothing illegal about it according to both French and EU law.

You keep forgetting to shout FAAAAACT!!! when you offer your unqualified opinion.

Anyway, anyone written to their MP's about the unfair licensing conditions for London black cab drivers restricting cab drivers qualified in other countries yet?

Whats not particularly clear to me is whether being a VTT guide is officially a regulated profession

Theres an online database that shows which professions are regulated, and what agreements have been drawn up by different countries to recognise other countries qualifications

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qualifications/regprof/

and seems to indicate that being a tourist guide is one qualification, rather than being a sports instructor or teacher, is a different one - and that the recognition of existing qualifications for both is quite different

there also seems to be a route for temporary or occasional employment of staff from abroad thats supposed to be taken on a case by case basis, allowing foreign qualifications or experience to be taken into account.

wrecker - Member
Nothing illegal about it according to both French and EU law.

So why this thread?

You keep forgetting to shout FAAAAACT!!! when you offer your unqualified opinion.

It's not my opinion. It's been stated by TA, who have legal representation and have spent more time looking at this than you have because their existance depends on it. I would recommend that you read the supporting articles.

So why this thread?

It is TA's [b]opinion[/b] (and an excuse for free marketing to the slower witted), and until proven in court or not only the [b]opinion[/b] of their legal representatives.

But you can keep pretending its a fact if it makes you feel better.

It is TA's opinion (and an excuse for free marketing to the slower witted), and until proven in court or not only the opinion of their legal representatives.

unqualified opinion

Had TA done what the authorities asked of them at the time this wouldn't even be an issue.
Just as a matter of interest do other trail guides have this problem and joining TA in court or are they just keeping quiet and doing what's needed?

The STW article mentions Sam Morris of Bike Village as taking the same approach. I expect because he's also operating in Les Arcs and that's the area they have targetted recently.

Just as a matter of interest do other trail guides have this problem and joining TA in court or are they just keeping quiet and doing what's needed?

if you'd actually read the article on the front page you'd know it was more than just TA and you'd know the legal situation as well.

I read it. It does seem they are going it alone while others accepted it and just got on with it.

I'm struggling to see why you wouldn't just go the IML plus route.

Note the MBLA course notes state:

On successful completion of MBL assessment the participant will be sufficiently skilled in mountain bike leading to lead groups within [b]Scotland and the UK[/b] as detailed below

I'm quite aware thanks

Good then you will be retracting your clearly false statement-

Nothing illegal about it according to both French and EU law.

Which is nothing more than based on the biased opinion of others, and unproven legally.

it's that of those better informed than either of us.

But less well informed than the French authorities.

Good then you will be retracting your clearly false statement-

Which is nothing more than based on the biased opinion of others, and unproven legally.

But less well informed than the French authorities.

Wrecker, I'd assume that the French government would also have taken legal advice which would suggest in their favour, it then goes to court and a judge adjudicates. One interpretation will be incorrect, why do you think it's TAs? As I understand the 2 other usual suspects for guided holidays in the valley are complying with the requirements so it's not entirely clear cut.

why do you think it's TAs?

As a comparison, if the UK suddenly stated that all pers working on a building site must hold UK qualifications for their skill/trade, no equivalances, no exception for previous experience or skill assessments, only a 3 year (or whatever) full cert, I would expect that the EU would slap us into place (restriction of trade/labour).

Would a worldwide qualification not be best? There is no (as far as I can tell) legal requirement for the Canadians to have quals for guiding and if anywhere would warrant it; it's there. They are quite liberal though I suppose.

As a comparison, if the UK suddenly stated that all pers working on a building site must hold UK qualifications for their skill/trade, no equivalances, no exception for previous experience or skill assessments, only a 3 year (or whatever) full cert, I would expect that the EU would slap us into place.

From what I've read, it can take up to 5 years to get an IML qualification.

http://www.mountain-training.org/walking/skills-and-awards/international-mountain-leader
5 years? From whats here anyone who is currently guiding bikes in the alps should have the experience, loggable days, skills for most of the course and the right aptitude. Get it done in 12 months easy.

As are Bike Village

You sure? Last I heard Sam was getting his tickets.

Quite a lot about Sam here; http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/guiding-in-france-war-in-the-mountains/

How recent it is, I don't know.
Mike, I was just going from here;
http://www.ridethealps.com/about/become-a-mountain-bike-guide/

You first need to have a Summer ML award then, proceed to the IML which has both winter and summer training and assessment elements to it. It can take a minimum of 5 years to pass all these different criteria, that’s if you have the time to do it as well as the money and experience and skills it requires and needs.

It can take a minimum of 5 years to pass all these different criteria,

So what qualification do you need and how can you get them?
If you want to cross a high mountain pass in the UK, not normally covered in snow in summer, with a group of walkers you need a Summer Mountain Walking Leadership (ML) award. To guide the same walkers over a pass in the Alps (and world wide) in summer, so long as you are not crossing ice, steep rock or a glacier etc, you need an International Mountain Leaders (IML) Award. If you happen to have mountain bikes with you then you need another piece of paper which qualifies you as a mountain bike leader as well as your ML (UK) or IML (rest of world). It’s a belt and braces approach, but it satisfies the law and makes insurance possible for the activity that you are being paid to lead.

Wrecker, that's an article from issue 82, it's 2 years old.

Worth reading this...

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/war-in-the-mountains-part-two-summit-offers-hope-of-solution/

Fair enough but slightly besides the point; the MBLA is a higher qualification than the french equivalent (as was found by a neutral board), why should the Brit guides require the IML award but the French don't? make tham both do it, or none at all. It's an international qual after all.

Wrecker, that's an article from issue 82, it's 2 years old.

@Dave, looks good hopefully it means people will take on the new BC course when offered and solve all the problems (or carry on with the my bit of paper is as good as your bit of paper thing)
Nice to see BC involved in something that isn't an Olympic sport too.

Sam at Bike Village is doing the training (I was there last month). He has also employed some French guides so that all groups have a fully qualified guide.

Worth reading this...

So what if TA wins? Will all guides who followed the law get their cash back for this so called "unnecessary" piece of paper? What about the time spent getting it? Will they be paid 350€ a week time they had to study (plus food and lodge of course) or will they get nothing.
Remind everyone TA how much you've spent on accrediting your guides. This enables you to be extremely competitive in a cut throat market.
You've spent a whole lot of cash on legal eagles and your world could come crashing down. I hope it doesn't for your sake but maybe, just maybe you should take a reality check

Edit : by accrediting I mean the french qualifications needed

Whats not particularly clear to me is whether being a VTT guide is officially a regulated profession

Well there is no such thing as 'vtt guide qualification' in France.
You either hold a coaching qualification that allows you to take a group up to 12 people on trails to coach them. Or you hold a 'guide de moyenne montagne' with a specific qualification in MTBing.

Continually well pointed out Juan,

and to be honest, judging by most UK people's expectations they want to be shown the trails, not necessarily coached, and maybe not even necessarily 'guided' in terms of hand holding and someone being responsible.

Which brings us into a minefield of definitions etc and meaning that the UK clients want 1 thing and the French another, meaning different people get trained and qualified to do different things and yet there is no clear distinction or understanding.

I continue to sit on the fence a bit on this subject. I completley undertand the french point of view, and disaggree that it is protectionism, but at the same time feel the UK guys are in a bit of an awkward unfair position.

I apologise for my spelling. I do not hold relevant qualifications....

Remind everyone TA how much you've spent on accrediting your guides. This enables you to be extremely competitive in a cut throat market.
You've spent a whole lot of cash on legal eagles and your world could come crashing down. I hope it doesn't for your sake but maybe, just maybe you should take a reality check

Well done Lolo, commendable posting there, at least from the point of view that you got me to bite!

First of all, we are already operating fully within the law as I keep trying to explain! Don't you think that I'd be locked up by now, if we weren't? Its hardly as if we are going under the radar.....

You may not realise that French law IS EU law, and vice versa, e.g. a direct copy paste. This is the whole point, when a corrupt and blatantly racist country wants to throw its weight around, its quite easy for it to ignore its own laws, Yes, even its own Judges will do this. I have no doubt we will be found guilty in French court if it gets that far- but when we win in European appeal, my point will be made.

Why don't I just do the French quals? Because its a waste of time and money, frankly. I have much more useful and constructive things to do with my time, such as create the first ever lift-accessed multi-day Enduro on the planet (the Trans-Savoie). Incidentally, don't think for one second that it was easier to get full legal authorisation to take over 300Km of prime French walkers paths for a mountain bike event, than it would be to sit a French guiding qualification!

Why wouldn't I send all of my guides to retrain in France? Because I believe they will learn much more (that is directly relevant to what we do, at least) when I can train them each in-house for a full season (about 16 weeks which happens to be the same length as the French qual).

To further the point, I'd simply be adding to the corrupt French system of "being on the inside" and keeping everyone else out. I would much prefer to compete for customers based on things that are important, like quality of service, in an open market. We don't feel the need to hide behind rubber stamps and bits of paper in order to protect our market share. We simply offer the best holiday service we can, invest in developing new trails and new ideas, and then let our customers and reputation do the rest.

For those who would argue that this infers some kind of shortcut / cheapskate stance on things, I would suggest you actually try coming on a trailAddiction holiday before you jump to conclusions.

Every single customer fills in a written 10-point feedback questionnaire at the end of the holiday. (A rating of 5 is Excellent, a rating of 1 is Sub-standard.)

Over 13 years we have now collected feedback from nearly 3000 customers. Our average rating for the specific question about "Standard of Guiding" is currently running at an overall average of 4.9 / 5. And incidentally we have an extremely high returning customer rate too.

Not bad for a bunch of unqualified, cheapskate charlatans, wouldn't you say?

A key point that for some reason was omitted from the original Telegraph article is that the EU regulations very clearly stipulate that in the event France has reason to believe our UK quals are not up to scratch, they MUST provide a competency test in order for us to be able to prove ourselves. (In the case of skiing this is the famed Eurotest). I really wish that the French would offer an MTB equivalent and then we could get this settled once and for all. Unfortunately for us, no such test exists and therefore we literally have no way to prove our "competence" other than this long and drawn out legal battle.

^^^^^
You posted that late at night during what is no doubt a stressful time, but I don't think language like "when a corrupt and blatantly racist country wants to throw its weight around" is going to win you many more friends. There are quite a few folk on here that live and work in France as foreigners, yes there is racism in France but there is racism everywhere unfortunately and describing it as being endemic throughout France is neither true or helpful.
And whilst I'm being pedantic, the Tribe 10,000 is a lift accessed multi-day enduro event that predates the Trans-Savoie by over a decade, though I get your point that it really isn't anything like on the same level of organisation. What happened to the last stage from the Nid d'Aigle last year? Managing to successfully negotiate access to the top for a bike race should make sorting out the european guiding qualification equivalences seem easy!

@ grum - 'Rainbow Warrior'.

Rainbow warrior wasn't racist or corrupt, it was just plain wrong. Though how do you feel about the British military helping Pol Pot, or Thatchers friendship with Pinochet, or....

Back on point, if the French system for assessing guides was "corrupt" then there would be no standardised test that everyone who wished to guide in France needed to sit, instead guiding permits would be issued based entirely on who you know and who you paid a random bribe, not what you know assessed by a single course at a single set cost.
Even in the UK there is a myriad of schemes you can sit to get a bit of paper to guide in the hills.
I'm not saying the system is perfect, far from it, but it is not corrupt.
High mountain guides have already been through this process and come out the other side with a system that creates very competent guides able to work across most of the world, I'm sure VTT will manage the same. (or at least, I hope it does)

And afterwards, the pressure on New Zealand and the return of the agents.