[Closed] French Alps MTB guiding row in the Telegraph

Spent a bit of time in the Alps and never once saw any mtbers - guides or otherwise - bothering with the weight of ropes in their backpacks. This still smacks of rubber-stamping to me, with regard to mtbing - obviously not so for walking or climbing.

ir12daveor - Member
main qualifications from Alpine countries (France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland)

Because medical qualifications have a long tradition, and have naturally become rather similar over time internationally. Whereas outdoors qualifications haven't.

In fact the British one has been found to be better.

Prove it.

MSP - Member

How else are you going to display competence in the language for the job your doing other than sitting a relevant exam

Maybe I'm not explaining it clearly. An exam to demonstrate competence in the language as it relates to the job would be pretty reasonable. But that's not the same as doing an exam on a related subject, in that language. That requires a different level and different use of the language.

So (rough examples) you want to know that a guide can call for help; describe a situation accurately; describe a location using the local terminology; give medical information etc. But it's not important that they be able to do an exam [i]in[/i] french, because they're never going to face a lifethreatening exam halfway up a mountain. It's not critical that they be able to write a 1000 word essay in good french on how to organise a guided trip, or similiar.

And then, you have the question of direct relevence- apparently brevet professionnel includes sections on business management and IT, so all of a sudden you're demanding that a guide proves their fluency in IT-french and business-french not guide-french. I don't care if Ali knows the french excel formulas.

MSP - Member

Prove it.

According to the article, the EQF has assessed the SMBLA as a level 5 qualification and the brevet professionnel as only a level 4. Did you read it? It's good.

Prove it.

I'm slightly surprised TrailAddiction are so disparaging of having to learn mountain walking and the like, since a lot knowledge has direct cross over with mtbing.

Having been on holiday with a horrifically poor level of guiding, I'm in support of driving up standards.

There is talk of a Europe wide(Alpine Environment)guiding qualification. In theory it should bring the main qualifications from Alpine countries (France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland) together to make a more consistent scheme across these countries. I'm not sure what the time frame is though.

That seems quite interesting, and it raises some questions:
If the more mountainous countries within the EU can work together on producing qualifications acceptable across borders what happens when that comes in?

Will all previous national body issued certifications be superseded and considered invalid? Or will their equivalence to any new qualification, plus the value of practical experience continue to be recognised?
We might not have the mountains, but I can't help feeling the UK should be contributing/involved in any new EU outdoor leading certificates that might be developed....

TBH I really like the idea of a single, "harmonised" set of qualifications for outdoors activity leaders/guides that can be taught and assessed across all EU countries, any quibbling (or protectionist practises) over equivalence go out the window if a British guide sat the exact same exams as his French/German/Italian/Spanish counterparts...

Language qualification is (IMO) a bit of a red herring. OK a level of proficiency at communicating in the language of the country you are working in is probably necessary to be able to do the job, I doubt you'd get the job if you couldn't string together a bit French, but to a demand UK nationals are fluent to a level where they could sit guiding exams full of terminology and technical terms in French?
I'm not so sure about that, surely you assess an individuals knowledge of a topic better in their native language, and gauge their ability to speak French from basic academic attainment.

Another question how much per hour do you pay your staff?

Oh no, not this again. TA staff get full board and lodging - you need to factor that in.

Glad you brought it up!

My most senior guides - I'm not ashamed to publicly declare here - get 350 Euros per week (5 days guiding) and guaranteed work for the entire summer season. They also get a lot of perks such as a free Nukeproof Mega AM, wholesale price on parts and clothing, season lift pass, free food when working etc. And they can usually expect to earn between 100 Euros a week or more on top of that in tips.

Its not fortunes, by any means. But I would argue that it is hardly a pittance for the job of riding your bike all day every day on the best trails in the world (that no-one else knows about), with really friendly, happy customers who high-five you at the bottom of every trail. Job satisfaction levels are generally pretty high for those who aren't in it purely for cash in the bank.

Contrast this to a typical winter seasonnaire's (e.g. Ski Host's) wage of 80 to 100 Euros a week.....for cleaning chalets and changing bedsheets day in day out, and/or nannying people around the way marked green and blue pistes.

Anyone want a job? ;-P

Dunno maybe i am being critical, but if i was going to move to a foreign country to live and work and stay, then i would make sure i complied with the regs that the country wants. i wouldn't look to put all that at risk by taking on the authorities.
good luck to the guy, but life is too short to be taking on the govt. etc. in my view.

Over to you stoffel I believe

Apears to be the same opinionated unobjective wafle that was on last night. Seen nothig so far to convince me the French are doing anything wrong, nor anything to make me sympathetic toards TA or any other Brits ignoring the legal obligation to hold a particulat qualification in the country thy choose to work in.

As I see it, the bottom line is that the french require yout o have a particular qualification for which there is no British equivalent (as you don't need anything to legally become a mtb guide in the UK, thereofre there is no 'professional' qualification). Ragardless of individual opinion of French law, it doesn't ppear the French are in fact doinganything that contravenes EU directives. Nothing that I can see, anyway. There are accusations of 'protectionism', but I can't see any solid evidence to back these up.

Imagine a Dutch bloke smoking a spliff in England; 'But for shure, itsh perfectly legal in holand, sho whatsh the problem?'.

stoffel - Member

As I see it, the bottom line is that the french require yout o have a particular qualification for which there is no British equivalent (as you don't need anything to legally become a mtb guide in the UK, thereofre there is no 'professional' qualification).

Except that as mentioned a couple of times in the thread, and also in the article which has been linked a couple of times, the MBLA has been confirmed by the relevant european authority as being superior to the French qualification. Whether it's a requirement in the UK or not really isn't at all relevant.

Brits ignoring the legal obligation to hold a particulat qualification in the country thy choose to work in.

According to French and EU law, they are not ignoring any legal obligations.

Northwind - Member

stoffel - Member
As I see it, the bottom line is that the french require yout o have a particular qualification for which there is no British equivalent (as you don't need anything to legally become a mtb guide in the UK, thereofre there is no 'professional' qualification).

Except that as mentioned a couple of times in the thread, and also in the article which has been linked a couple of times, the MBLA has been confirmed by the relevant european authority as being superior to the French qualification. Whether it's a requirement in the UK or not really isn't at all relevant

Anyway, as I've already said - it could well be a massive own-goal for the French Alps mtb industry, full stop.

It would be interesting to know what proportion of lift sales are generated by guiding company guests.

this isn't anything new though, is it? 13 years ago there was a conscious decision to ignore the french requirement. other operators bit the bullet and got qualified to the required standard, why couldn't TA?
it's been made easier to challenge and legitimise the situation now due to subsequent rulings. i'm sorry, but i'm afraid i don't have a great deal of sympathy for the 'plucky underdog', though i do wish them success. it's all a bit half a dozen of one and six of the other IMO, FWIW.

It would be interesting to know what proportion of lift sales are generated by guiding company guests.

So Ali what can we do to help ? Can we write to the Tourist Office, UK or EU authorities ? Can we make a donation ?

a guide in morzine told me that the lift passes for avoriaz (sp?) for one day totaled more than a full summer seasons revenues. unable to back that data up but have no reason to think it's wildly out of order.

@Del - sorry, I meant it would be interesting to know the proportion of summer lift pass sales paid by guided guests. I bet it's not an insignificant amount of money.

In Morzine and the pds area, I think it would be fairly insignificant.

Around les arcs, they don't seem to be promoting biking in the same way, so those on a guided holiday type vacation, could amount to a reasonable percentage of lift users, but still significant minority.

At Les Arcs we're a drop in the bucket I think. But that seems to be how they operate, lots of drops, they're like centerparcs up a mountain. At other locations, say La Rosiere or St Foy, much bigger (White Room took over the St Foy uplift completely for 2 days when we were there and had obviously influenced and helped the area a lot)

Seems that the guiding companies are welcomed by most.

PdS must make a metric shedload from the PPdS event, and other events, plus with so much stormtrooper/pyjama action going on in at least 3 villages, the number of "XC" riders taking lift assistance must be minimal (I'd guess possibly in similar proportions to walkers?).

Our guiding was expert advice, fully annotated maps, and 20mins spent explaining everything at breakfast. But then they wrote the guide book.

Some resorts run the lifts for free during summer? Tignes may be one?

But then PdS is a medium-lowish resort, shorter ski season, and sussed that it can get 6-8 weeks of income in summer too. Tignes is high, (proper) ski season starts a month earlier, and must make a packet on training camps.

If it were me, and they were flicking V's at UK qualis, I'd be trying to find a cheaper equivalent in another Alpine nation, and flick V's back.

If it were me, and they were flicking V's at UK qualis, I'd be trying to find a cheaper equivalent in another Alpine nation, and flick V's back.

Believe me this one has been discussed on so many occasions! The problem is, the quantity and quality of the terrain and singletrack in Les Arcs and the wider Savoie region is literally unsurpassed by any other place that Im aware of in the whole of Europe (or indeed, the world for that matter!). And Ive spent the past 15 years looking, too! Otherwise, for sure, we'd not bother putting more time and effort into promoting this area simply to have it shoved back in our faces by a minority of greedy local guides (who had zero work whatsoever before we came along and put the place on the map).

Its not ALL doom and gloom over here by the way. We're still guiding as per usual and very much enjoying it. The legal battle has been raging for years behind the scenes and luckily at the front line, we've been unaffected out on the mountain itself. Neil Donoghue was here coaching last week and we made this video on his day off. I don't reckon the Gendarmes would have caught up with him even if they had tried - not at this pace:

So Ali what can we do to help ? Can we write to the Tourist Office, UK or EU authorities ? Can we make a donation ?

Well it would be amazing if you could do any of the following - thanks for offering!

Write to your local EU MP, comment on the daily telegraph web article directly, and generally help to raise awareness of this so that the UK politicians actually get it onto their agenda and (hopefully) do something about it by pressuring France.

My most senior guides - I'm not ashamed to publicly declare here - get 350 Euros per week (5 days guiding) and guaranteed work for the entire summer season. They also get a lot of perks such as a free Nukeproof Mega AM, wholesale price on parts and clothing, season lift pass, free food when working etc. And they can usually expect to earn between 100 Euros a week or more on top of that in tips.

So basically you pay (because that is what I asked you) your guides 10€ per hour (and I am making the assumption that they only work 35 hours a week here). That is a very poor wage. Minimum wage people with a BE get paid is between 15 to 24€/hours. Maybe here lies a part of your answer. Perks and tips don't really count as wage, as you can't really tell a bank you have 100€ of tips a week when you want to get a mortgage. Plus French worker will be able to deduce at least half of all he bike related purchase from his tax declaration

They're not exactly digging holes in the road with a shovel. They are being paid I expect better than most in the Alps who do 'leisure' type jobs

Its not ALL doom and gloom over here by the way. We're still guiding as per usual and very much enjoying it. The legal battle has been raging for years behind the scenes and luckily at the front line, we've been unaffected out on the mountain itself. Neil Donoghue was here coaching last week and we made this video on his day off. I don't reckon the Gendarmes would have caught up with him even if they had tried - not at this pace:

Top vid mate... throw me a mail please. Debating our potential 2015 trip and that vid sums up our 'want' in many many many ways

I thought they got their digs as well? paying rent in the alps out of E350/week (before tax) must be a bit tight.

So basically you pay (because that is what I asked you) your guides 10€ per hour (and I am making the assumption that they only work 35 hours a week here). That is a very poor wage. Minimum wage people with a BE get paid is between 15 to 24€/hours. Maybe here lies a part of your answer. Perks and tips don't really count as wage, as you can't really tell a bank you have 100€ of tips a week when you want to get a mortgage. Plus French worker will be able to deduce at least half of all he bike related purchase from his tax declaration.

So basically you pay (because that is what I asked you) your guides 10€ per hour (and I am making the assumption that they only work 35 hours a week here).

Exactly correct, yes! And I'm very proud of that fact. I have about 10 to 20 times the number of applicants who want to work for me every year, than I have vacant positions.

That is a very poor wage. Minimum wage people with a BE get paid is between 15 to 24€/hours. Maybe here lies a part of your answer.

THANKYOU! You have just demonstrated the REAL root of the issue here - which is as follows:

French guides want to keep a monopoly on the labour market for guiding, excluding foreign guides, fixing prices between themselves and thereby protecting their own hugely overpriced rates. THIS is the real and ONLY reason I am being forbidden to guide - it is nothing to do with maintaining apparent high French standards. All these standards attempt to do is create a closed market, so that holiday makers have no choice but to get ripped off for a low standard service at extortionate prices.

Im not at all saying that ALL French guides fall into this position - far from it. However the Unions of the ESF and MCF are the ones that force the issue, and it is they that I will openly point my finger at as the real root-cause of the issue.

Here's some juicy gossip for you:
1) Did you know that the husband of one of the key administrators who is blocking my right to work in France, just happens to be the owner of one of only a small handful of registered schools in France that I would have to pay my 9000 Euros to in order to get the French qualification?

2) Did you know that one of the other senior Administrators who is heading this investigation, used to be an ESF ski instructor himself?

Obviously, both of the above facts are merely co-incidence. No corruption or bias could possibly be taking place inside a French government body, could it?

;-P

THANKYOU! You have just demonstrated the REAL root of the issue here - which is as follows:

IFTFY

I just do hope nothing bad is going to happen to one of your guest, because you're just going to be screwed. Sensible course of action will be to have your guide trained for very little through FONGECIF.
It will cost you almost nowt and your guide will still be paid while training.

Hi Ali,

Having just about recovered from an awesome week in Les Arcs with TA last week I'd happily support your crusade.

Given it is a bit of a sticky issue to explain perhaps you'd like to write a letter and share it on here/facebook and we could send to our Euro-MP? (I don't hold out much luck with the UKIP ones) It's a bit tricky because they represent their local constituents and I'm not sure if your guides are classed as UK constituents if they are living in France. But hey, happy to give it a go!

I hope your guides and your employment and tax residency status are all above board. Speaking as a French registered entrepreneur......

the whole look im being persecuted wink wink thing has just lost any respect i had for you.

Damn I just got trolled. I guess there is no such thing as bad publicity.

Whether it's a requirement in the UK or not really isn't at all relevant.

It is compltely relevant. The French qualification allows oyu to legally operate as a guide. The MBLA thing is merely a recognition of a level of competence. Very different things.

French guides want to keep a monopoly on the labour market for guiding, excluding foreign guides, fixing prices between themselves and thereby protecting their own hugely overpriced rates. THIS is the real and ONLY reason I am being forbidden to guide - it is nothing to do with maintaining apparent high French standards. All these standards attempt to do is create a closed market, so that holiday makers have no choice but to get ripped off for a low standard service at extortionate prices.

Do you have any concrete evidence of this, or is this meely your own subjective opionion?

So basically you pay (because that is what I asked you) your guides 10€ per hour (and I am making the assumption that they only work 35 hours a week here). That is a very poor wage.

I'll say.You're expected to have a high degree of experience, as well as be highly profficient inrelevant skills, yet only get paid £7.95 an hour? In a place/job where people are paying thousands per head for a couple of weeks holiday? That is shit. Exploitation, even...

The argument that the guides are being exploited is laughable.
Good luck Ali, monopolism would suck.

I'll say.You're expected to have a high degree of experience, as well as be highly profficient inrelevant skills, yet only get paid £7.95 an hour? In a place/job where people are paying thousands per head for a couple of weeks holiday? That is shit. Exploitation, even...

There's also a massive over supply of willing labour for those "dream summer jobs" which will always bring the price down.

Frustratingly I can see both sides of the argument and I'm not sure on which side I fall.

I'm sure all this national media publicity hasn't done TA's bookings any harm mind. Even if it will cost him a spell in the clink.

stoffel - Member

It is compltely relevant. The French qualification allows oyu to legally operate as a guide. The MBLA thing is merely a recognition of a level of competence.

MBLA is recognised by the relevant authority as being a higher qualification than the french qualification! We're going in circles here.

only get paid £7.95 an hour? In a place/job where people are paying thousands per head for a couple of weeks holiday? That is shit. Exploitation, even...

I should imagine the bulk of the money i would pay for a week in the Alps goes on my board and lodgings, lift passes etc etc...you cant look at the headline amount, then the hourly rate for guides and scream exploitation, you know full well there's more to it than that....plus (shock horror) the company wants to make a profit, seen by many on here as a dirty word but businesses that dont make a profit dont remain businesses for very long!

....as an example, it costs around £500 to call 999 and have an Ambulance to your door. Do i as the attending Paramedic get £500 for that call?....do i heck!....once fuel costs, call takers salary, dispatchers salary, running cost of the control room, insurance costs, etc etc get taken out i'm lucky to get my hourly rate of £20!....i should imagine a similar scenario exists in most jobs with guiding in the Alps no exception.

Anyway, if my employer would let me take leave in great big blocks i'd come out next summer and do it for that hourly rate....free board and lodgings, free passes and a free Nukeproof Mega!!!!...what's not to like?!

Northwind - Member
stoffel - Member
It is compltely relevant. The French qualification allows oyu to legally operate as a guide. The MBLA thing is merely a recognition of a level of competence.

MBLA is recognised by the relevant authority as being a higher qualification than the french qualification! We're going in circles here.

I gained my MBLA a few years ago and no way, having been abroad a few times, would I consider myself capable of working in the Alps or elsewhere. Can't speak a word of French and people struggle to understand my Scottish accent 🙄

I was in Chatel a couple of years ago and our host/guide was at pains to make sure we understood the situation and that he was just one of the ride group if an issue arose ❗ We all knew this before we signed up btw.....

Good luck in your quest guys.....

We're going in circles here.

I'm not.

In france, you need a particular qualification to do a particular job, legally. In the UK, there is no equivalent, as you don't need any qualifications to do that same job. It is really that simple.

What you're doing, is making the mistake that a recognition of competence, eg the MBLa 'qualification' (something concocted by a non-government organisation which has no legal weight whatsoever), is 'equivlent' to a legally required qualification.

Think about gas fitting. By law, you need to be a Gas Safe registered technician, before you are legally allowd to fit gas appliances in the UK. It doesn'tmatter if you were a rocket scientist specilaising in gas systems in France, you still aren't 'qualified' to fit gas applieances in the Uk, even ythough you may have vastly superior knowledge of gas technology.

Tend to agree with Mr stoffel ^^^^^^. The governing body SC/BC do not administer or regulate the awards in any way.
I actually know one of the guys who helped develop the award along with SC and Glenmore Lodge and it was originally designed for the outdoor education/schools sector. The catalyst being the unfortunate kayaking deaths on the south coast.
The quali would seem to allow "anyone" to start up a business coaching or guiding. Speaking to a tutor just the other day about this and the new BC qualification is already in troubled due to there being too many people taking it and not enough assessors apparently ❓
I did a night riding module a while back. The tutor was young enough to be my son and probably learnt more from the group than he imparted!! He was on our home patch but not very well prepared....

A friend of mine is a very well respected and champion at world level in sculling. He was asked to stop "coaching" a good number of years ago because he was not "qualified" ie he had no paper qualifications. Needless to say he spat the dummy!! He got over it 😆