[Closed] Fox hunting on the trails!!!

Are you sure they weren't just after your forks? really cause havoc with the drag hunts round our way do those Vans..

uwe-r - Member
It’s the people who go fox hunting that I can’t tolerate. A cull of rightwing toffs would be most welcome.

A most well informed point of view. It's an honour to have such a wealth of expertise available to learn from.

falkirk-mark - Member
I am with TJ on this, if they need contolling send someone out with a rifle to shoot it.

In the gun ownership [s]thread[/s] squabble a few weeks ago, someone suggested using a captive bolt to cull stags. Perhaps that could be used on foxes too?

it's the "Hunt Sabs" I can't abide. Trespassing, videoing kids at the Hunt without permission (closet peados), Self-righteous, know it all (usually incorrectly), scruffy, hippy, townie, scabs.
They don't unnerstan aaaar ways.

They need to butt out of local cruelty issues and stay on their carbon Epics. IMHO

As far as I understand, I have no first hand knowledge of fox hunting except watching it occasionally, but my lovely wife being a good Norfolk girl, her father was master of the terriers.

i think the first misconception is that this is purely a sport for the posh, my father in law certainly isn't he was a lorry driver full time and part time butcher to make ends meet. Both of the local pubs in their village closed when the hunting stopped and the hunts did not frequent them and many of the hounds were put down. Many of the hunters and those working for the hunt were normal country people who have lost jobs.

I also understand that the hunt had a wider role other than just the hunting itself, in return for allowing the hunt over the farmers land, they would in return offer services such as removing sick animals for slaughter etc.

Lastly, and I may be wrong here, but i understand that a trained pack of dogs can actually kill a fox almost instantly, whereas even a good shot may take a few attempts to kill it outright.

I do not neccesarily condone blood sports, but I think that anyone that eats a chicken from a battery farm, or veal, cannot then turn round a state that they abide hunting. I have worked in an abatoir and seen the practises there with my own eyes.

Many of the hunt sabotuers that I spoke to also were against shooting, where the bird had lived a good life outside, then would quite happily eat chicken from a super market, yet did not see the irony.

I think that unfortunately it is perceived as being a sport for the posh inbreed, when actually it served a wider role and provided jobs and income.

scud - and all of that could be done if they did drag hunts.

It’s the people who go fox hunting that I can’t tolerate. A cull of rightwing toffs would be most welcome

Quite. I don't agree with the entire sentiment, but it is mildly amusing to see the pastimes of the establishment being legislated against.

I think that for most hunts now, they are legally drag hunting, but even in doing that they are still facing such critiscm and abuse from hunt sabotuers that many have drifted away from the sport and many jobs have been lost as a result.

I do not know you TJ, but you are obviously an intelligent man, your comment that killing animals for meat is a "utility" i cannot agree with.

Having briefly worked in an abatoir (before getting frostbite working there) the cruelty i saw to the chickens and turkeys and the way that they were dealt with, far outweighs any cruelty in fox hunting. A fox has a healthy life in the country (not the scrawny urban fox) and is killed in seconds in a hunt.

Yet the chickens and turkeys i saw being killed hung upside down for a long time, often dying of heart failure before being electrocuted.

Yet if we suggested banning cheap meat, can you imagine how many people would be up in outrage then??

I have found that those people i know who live in the countryside and understand the countryside, are far more likely to grow their own veg, without the use of chemicals, far more likely to actually care where their meat comes from and the life it has had and far more likely to actually understand hunting and the implications of vermin control.

scud - killing animals to eat - the utility is that they provide food.

It’s the people who go fox hunting that I can’t tolerate. A cull of rightwing toffs would be most welcome

Quite. I don't agree with the entire sentiment, but it is mildly amusing to see the pastimes of the establishment being legislated against.

Except that the vast majority of people on hunts are ordinary people, not "rightwing toffs", who work full time in ordinary jobs and just happen to enjoy riding horses.

The difference in riding between drag hunts and "standard" hunts is the same as the difference between trail centres and exploring natural terrain btw.

I agree with you that killing animals for food is a utility, in that they provide a function, food. But what i was trying to state and will admit not being the most eloquent of people,is two things.

Firstly, the hunt provided a livelihood to many people, which i believe has a function or utility, it supported jobs and it helped local farmers in many ways, the same people that supported the hunt were also that often dealt with other vermin (with terriers and gassing), dealt with fence repairs, operated the "knacker wagon" etc. I fully understand that there is something unappealing in any blood sport, but a dog killing a fox, why is it different to lamping rabbits or gassing as a means of control, what people do not like is the tool being used, another animal, and the perception that it is just a sport for toffs.

Secondly the conversation had turned to discussing the aspect of cruelty to animals, what i was trying to say i find people stating that hunting is cruel, should look at what they eat before they comment on the same and the way that is killed, it often being far more brutal and cruel.

scud - he difference is the fox hunting with hounds is deliberately cruel. there are much less cruel ways to control foxes if needed. The whole intent is to pursue the animal until it is exhausted.

I see your point TJ, my fitter, skinnier friends have the same idea with me, buzz my back wheel continually shouting words of "encouragement" whilst I am pedalling like the clappers until exhaustion.

Reply to comments on page 2.

I have witnessed first hand the damage the Fox can do.
My parents keep Hens which are allowed to wonder around there field during the day and housed during the night. Also kept in a fenced pen when not in the field.
Basically on a number of occasions they have been wiped out and always during day light hours. The fox has dug under the pen fence and slaughtered all but 1 hen. The same happened while free in the field, the fox was seen happily making his way down the field with just 1 hen in its mouth.

So you are telling me that your poultry farmer never gets bothered? Might be the fact that the poultry is kept in sheds and not allowed outside.

TJ - how would you control the fox population?

What next Game shooting, fresh water fishing........

I suppose my multi-sports weekend of a bit of bike riding, bull fighting, badger baiting, seal clubbing and cockfighting isn't going to be popular?

Think the latter could get you a bad name and a reputation. 😉

bren - shooting/ trapping / whatever the least cruel way is should it be needed which is very debatable.

Game shooting I do not like but there is a significant moral difference as it is not deliberately cruel

So you are telling me that your poultry farmer never gets bothered?

Might be the fact that the poultry is kept in sheds and not allowed outside.

Except that the vast majority of people on hunts are ordinary people, not "rightwing toffs", who work full time in ordinary jobs and just happen to enjoy riding horses.

What, like John Wayne? 😆

It's true though.

Fox hunting, perceived as a cruel sport, done by toffs, with no worth at all.

Commercial meat production, battery farming, commercial fishing (where much fish/ sea life is killed in nets along with that actually used), veal production etc, that "sort" of cruelty is perfectly acceptable to the masses as they get a tasty burger or something to go with chips?

Personally, i eat meat, always will, but i fail to see how one sort of cruelty (hunting) is so despised, yet other forms of cruelty are perfectable acceptable to most.

Fox hunting, perceived as a cruel sport, done by toffs, with no worth at all.

Well, they're a bit like the Freemasons in some respect - it's the pomp an ceremony of an outdated and bizarre practice that I reckon a lot of people find weird.

Ordinary people go down the club/pub for a pint, without getting their nipple out or rolling their trouser leg up or fellating the Grand Wizard.

Just like an ordinary hunter - he might go out lamping/rabbiting, whatever, but doesn't feel the need to get drunk, dress up like a Beefeater and take 20 dogs along for the ride.

scud - because the hunting with hounds is done in a deliberately cruel manner - not the least cruel possible.

Hunting also has no utility they deliberately do not eliminate foxes from an area nor even take significant numbers. They feed and support the fox population

So its a deliberately cruel pastime that has no purpose beyond the entertainment of people.

do you think badger baiting / bearbaiting / cock fighting is acceptable?

TJ have you ever been shooting or trapping?
No I didn't think so!
It's not as straight forward as you think.
You don't just put a trap down and the fox walks in.
As for shooting you have to be in the right place at the right time. If you get a fox in your lamp and miss the shot you can be sure next time you put your lamp on its gone!

Foxes go for easy food so a field full of poultry would not be safe. So with you previous comments regards your poutry farmer.

I'm sorry I don't believe you!

democracy..
now there's a concept..

So ordinary people don't find mountain bikers weird, with their odd clothing, language and customs...? 😉

If my boss knew that my furious typing was not work, but on this forum, i'd be hunted...

What I don't understand is that the people who are opposed to hunting foxes will quite readily shovel meat down their neck from an animal that has seen nothing but cruelty for it's whole tragic young life.

Bit of a generalisation there really and TBH the genuinely passionate anti-hunt lot are normally not so keen on the meat anyway...
I've never seen "Hound shredded Fox meat" in my local butcher either, so what your point exactly?

I like my Cow/Pig/Lamb/Chicken electrocuted and swiftly brained or decapitated takes seconds not hours and if your gonna do an animal in it's about as "Humane" as practicable, setting a bunch of slathering dog on them isn't really what I'd call "Kind Killing"...

And seriously was several several gits getting dressed up and charging about half pissed on horses, demolishing fences, hedges and generally getting in everyones way with a shed load of dogs to run one fox to ground the most efficient way of controlling vermin?

I'm sure trapping or lamping would actually have worked about as well...

I've nothing in particular against killing foxes or people who want to kill them but the "traditional" method was probably the least efficient way of controling fox numbers...

You can still kill a fox if you want, you just don't get to do it with a pack of dogs and several horses, if you really want to kill them MTFU and do it yourself, no more delegating it to the canines!

As I have sad in previous post's trapping and lamping will work but is not effective, hence the high population of foxes!

A lot of the control was done by the terrier men!

bren2709 - Member

As I have sad in previous post's trapping and lamping will work but is not effective, hence the high population of foxes!

A lot of the control was done by the terrier men!

the hunts claim to have taken more foxes since the legislation 🙂

How come there is not an explosion in fox numbers in areas of no hunts?

Oh FFS - its obvious the legislation was a fudge. Anti's are kept quiet, hunters carry on "pretending" to follow a drag sent and oh, up jumps Mr Fox, so the hounds do as they have always done.

So why waste all the hot air on the topic. The legislation was bollocks and a waste of time on all scores - oh apart from giving hunting an unintended boost in the arm.

Z-11 - The PPT presentation quip was a good one!

THM - I'm disappointed that you actually think I'm joking...

We really did!

How come there is not an explosion in fox numbers in areas of no hunts?

maybe 'cause snare sales went through the roof after the ban (anecdotal evidence from a mate who works for a farm supplies company)

Once again it seems the right wingers on this forum use the excuse of "there are worse things going on so lets bring every thing down to that level"

Personally i find the idea of setting one animal against another for human entertainment barbaric and thoroughly unnecessary, whether that be hound on fox, cock on cock, dog on dog or dog on badger, most of these are considered rightly banned by all, only a minority seem to think hunting foxes with hounds is still acceptable.

I find the idea of un-stunned slaughter also un acceptable and if i had my way would ban that. And whilst their is still some suffering of animals bred for meat consumption that hardly justifies fox hunting with hounds, more that the law and enforcement of laws for animal welfare should be strengthened.

It also pees me off that these hunts try and pretend to represent country dwellers, you don't, i was born, raised and still live in a rural community and the vast majority of people i know disagree on hunting foxes with hounds, not hunting in general as foxes, rabbits, pigeons etc. do need to have there numbers controlled but it is pure fantasy to suggest that the best way is with a pack of dogs.

You really shouldn't have mentioned terrier men.

I now have a very Boosh-esque image in my head now. Body of a man, head of a terrier, wearing a pinstriped suit for some reason... Its been a long day.

if its purely social then drag hunts are the way to go surely - no need for the killing.

the very fact that the hunts have carried on killing - illegally - tells me that there is very much a need for it and that it is a vital part of the ritual.

I don't fox hunt, I find it repulsive, I find the bullying rural hunting crowd that take the law into their own hands, completely obnoxious.

However, as an example of human cultural heritage, it deserves the same protection and respect as any Aboriginal cave painting or any religious doctrine.

so bearbaiting then or badger baiting?

But the antis are missing a few really important points. Without the hunt there would be no pork pies (not that they fill it, more the origin of the popular pie), it's bloody good fun and the totty at hunts is outstanding.

so bearbaiting then or badger baiting?

well,i guess if they do or ever did form the same sort of social action then yes.

but i rather doubt that they ever did, so no.

Bazz - its not in any way a question of "right wingers using an excuse of"

Its a question of "why was hunting so special?"

if your primary interest/argument was enhancing animal welfare, then there's a list of issues as long as your arm that should have been tackled first, as they involve far more cruelty, pain, suffering and distress than hunting ever did. Number one on that list being religious slaughter.

Hunters are asking "why the double standards?" and "why are our traditions and culture any less important than other peoples?"

Of course, we knew the answer all along, and we've seen it in this thread - misguided, chip on your shoulder class war of the worst kind.

Regards cock fighting/badger baiting/dog fighting - don't forget the real reason they were banned, it never had a thing to do with animal welfare, it was primarily motivated by gambling and protecting both government tax revenues and keeping law and order.

[i]And whereas divers Places in and about the Metropolis are kept and used for the Purpose of fighting or baiting of Bears or other Animals, at which Places idle and disorderly Persons commonly assemble, to the Interruption of good Order and the Danger of the public Peace;[/i]

It also pees me off that these hunts try and pretend to represent country dwellers, you don't,

Not much of a sweeping statement there....Just saying as a country dweller,like. Anybody trying to pretend the ban on hunting was ANYTHING but an attempt to put one over on the toffs is full of crap.

TandemJeremy - Member
So you are telling me that your poultry farmer never gets bothered?
yes
Might be the fact that the poultry is kept in sheds and not allowed outside.
no
POSTED 2 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

On another note good to see TJ spouting the usual. Now it would seem foxes don't take chickens? So who is it? Angry Muslamic swans? Honey badgers perhaps?

teamhurtmore - Member

Oh FFS - its obvious the legislation was a fudge. Anti's are kept quiet, hunters carry on "pretending" to follow a drag sent and oh, up jumps Mr Fox, so the hounds do as they have always done.

I quite agree. It is also errr, interesting to look back at what other things nulab were putting through the commons at the time of the fox hunting bill... Excellent smokescreen! 😈

Might as well lock this thread now.

An anti will never, ever change their mind
TJ will never, ever change his mind.

The two together might well be critical mass, the forum will implode and i'll actually have to interact with real people (and I dont fancy that at all!)

So should we ban horse racing, jumps, flat makes no difference, it serves no purpose other than to let some people gamble, if a horse gets injured just shoot it. What about greyhounds, everyone knows about the dumped dogs, beaten to death, hung from trees, etc.

I'd eat the remains of a torn to shreds fox if it was fried and battered, that means its now ok, right?

This is probably only becuase I'm hungry and drunk. Ask me again how I feel in the morning?

zulu
Of course, we knew the answer all along, and we've seen it in this thread - misguided, chip on your shoulder class war of the worst kind.

Nonsense.

its about the deliberate cruelty in the name of fun Fox hunting with dogs is cruel by intent. Its nothing to do with controlling vermin its all about having fun by chasing an animal to exhaustion and then killing it. Its intended to be as long a chase as possible.

Hunting with dogs is singled out because of this barbaric deliberate cruelty. the dogs are bred to be slow enough not to catch the prey quickly, the foxes are fed and sheltered to ensure a supply of prey making a nonsense of the killing vermin argument.

Its a disgusting barbaric display of bloodlust and deliberate cruelty for entertainment. its unspeakably vile and indefensible

I do note no one here has actually come up with any defense other than its traditional and we want to do it.

Why defend it?

It's fun and I want to do it. I don't need or want to justify it to myself or anyone else.

So I will when I can. I hope my kids do to.

I do note no one here has actually come up with any defense other than its traditional and we want to do it.

I have heard plenty of people come up with arguments in its favour, employment, removing fallen live stock, pest control, entertainment, and tradition, That you have not seen the points must say something about your selective reading of the thread.

Whilst I don't agree with fox hunting, the alternatives, snaring where an animal is left to die in agony and will bite its own leg off to escape is hardly friendly, we could try baited traps and poison the foxes, there is the obvious colateral loses, shooting, and when the shot doesn't kill but wings the fox? If you need to control the fox population and at some point a method of control is needed, what do you do?

But TJ - there's a whole variety of things that are deliberately and/or unnecessarily cruel, vile and indefensible - factory farming, battery chickens, and, as mentioned, religious slaughter

So, once again "why was hunting so special?"

So, once again "why was hunting so special?"

Because, as was hinted at before, its done by people who are perceived to be "toffs". And thats pretty much it it.

I don't think it is a case of "so special" more of a place to start seeing as i believe it was in the Labour parties manifesto, hopefully within time the other acts of cruelty will also be banned. Just because there are other acts of cruelty to animals isn't a reason to keep one going.

I don't think it is a case of "so special" more of a place to start seeing as i believe it was in the Labour parties manifesto, hopefully within time the other acts of cruelty will also be banned. Just because there are other acts of cruelty to animals isn't a reason to keep one going.

If that was the case, why not frame one piece of legislation that banned all forms of animal abuse, no shooting of any wild animal, be it pest or not, why is it acceptable to shoot rabbits, pheasants, crows, magpies? why is it acceptable to catch fish? etc etc

The law as enacted is nothing more than the labour party playing to their urban vote, it had nothing to do with animal welfare, if that had been the aim there are far more important issues that should have been addressed first.

i went for a spin in my local woods one day and i met gee atherton at a foxhunt there !!

why is hunting so special - because of the deliberate cruelty involved - the chase is deliberately drawn out, the animal is run to exhaustion tehn torn to pieces by dogs

mrmo - Member

I do note no one here has actually come up with any defense other than its traditional and we want to do it.

I have heard plenty of people come up with arguments in its favour, employment

, removing fallen live stock,

pest control

, entertainment, and tradition,

Is this really good enough? would draghunts not perfom the same function?

I do note no one here has actually come up with any defense other than its traditional and we want to do it.

i don't think that any other [i]defence[/i] is needed

Its a disgusting barbaric display of bloodlust and deliberate cruelty for entertainment. its unspeakably vile and indefensible

your argument is similarly based upon what you want, enforced by the assumption that your values are inherently right.

I think morals are fairly widely accepted across the country and world. To inflict suffereing deliberately is immoral. tis is why the vast maority of the population are against it

Do you think badger baiting is acceptable? its still goes on but is mainly a working class thing.

a majority of the population would bring back hanging, would you go with that ?

badger biting is hardly a comparable activity, hare coursing is probably closer, or angling. both acceptable imho.

I think morals are fairly widely accepted across the country and world. To inflict suffereing deliberately is immoral. tis is why the vast maority of the population are against it

Done in your name, up and down the country, every day, apparently this is acceptable to the vast majority - and these are the ones that [i]are[/i] getting stunned before having their throats cut!

(Note to mods - I've linked to a video of slaughter practices video'd in the UK, have not embedded the video here for obvious reasons)

Why the **** were they on the whites descent in the first place!?
Good job you didnt plow through the pack - my mate would of, he doesnt get out the way for anything 😉

[url= http://www.channel4.com/programmes/jamies-fowl-dinners/4od ]jamies fowl dinners. [/url]

just to make people think a bit.

its all about our rights, our heritage, our traditions ,our lively hoods not those pompose fat ****s that used to try to run this glorious country and nearly brought to its knees .

a majority of the population would bring back hanging

Really? they couldn't even get the 100,000 signatures on a petition required to have it debated in the house of commons.

Ban fishing. Torturing innocent fish by hooking them in the mouth and yanking them around to cause pain and suffering before leaving them to suffocate or beating them to death.

its all about our rights, our heritage, our traditions ,our lively hoods not those pompose fat **** that used to try to run this glorious country and nearly brought to its knees .

You mean?

[img] [/img]

yep fat ****

sorry

Sorry for butting in, I've only just looked a this thread.

I do note no one here has actually come up with any defense other than its traditional and we want to do it.

Do any of the anti hunting brigade drink milk?

If so, please research the life of dairy cattle and the production process that brings milk to your table, and then tell me that you don't exploit animals for your selfish pleasure.

Utter, utter hypocrites.

Morally, I despise hunting.
Logically, I can't condemn it.

all the calves with no mothers just so everybody can have there cornflakes der!!!!!!!!! BUT THATS OK

rusty - the difference is its not deliberate suffering for the sake of entertainment.

Its a huge moral difference.

Dairy farming may cause suffering but its to some extent minimised and there is a some utility in it - production of food.

Fox hunting the cruelty is deliberately maximised ( the chase is made as long as possible and earths blocked up) and there is no utility to it at all

Dairy farming may cause suffering but its to some extent minimised and there is a some utility in it - production of food.

It is well documented that raising animals for food is incredibly wasteful of resources and there is no need for it. Consider Veal, either eat it or the calves get a bolt through there brains soon after birth, As soon as the mothers start to fail, off to slaughter and become Mcdonalds burgers.

What exactly is the "utility" in the production of a food that the human body does not need?

The human body can survive perfectly well on a vegetarian or vegan diet, there is no need for us to eat meat or drink milk, the only "utility" is a social "norm"

Eating meat is just another form of entertainment, we do it because we like it, not because we need it.

complete and utter hypocrisy

just to add to a point, humans are not actually meant to drink milk into adulthood, it is a genetic mutation that has occurred in some populations.

Mrmo - that is true but is a separate issue to the cruelty argument.

Zulu - the hypocrisy is with those who try to equate farming with the deliberately cruel killing of animals for entertainment.

I see you still haven't answered TJ, what exactly [b]is[/b] your position on religious slaughter?

Been vegie for 25 years, wife and child are not. Don't preach vegetarianism , believe in my choice. But it I believe it is true that IF the world population grows as expected we can not sustain meat production as our main protein sourse. Doesn't effect you? It will do!

Mrmo - that is true but is a separate issue to the cruelty argument.

Not really, farming is a business it exists to make money, it does not exist for an animas welfare, plenty of evidence for abuse throughout the production. Hugely wasteful of resources, environmentally destructive, damaging to human health.

Issues like fox hunting allow some people to salve their consciences by appearing to do something whilst denying that they are infact guilty of tolerating far worse. Anyone who claims that the treatment of animals is not their problem is lying to themselves. If you want cheap meat, you get what you pay for, animal abuse. I have met many people who argue that fox hunting is wrong but are perfectly happy to inflict pain on fish, to gamble on the outcome of horse and dog races and who have successfully blinded themselves to their gross hypocrisy.

TandemJeremy - Member

rusty - the difference is its not deliberate suffering for the sake of entertainment.

Its a huge moral difference.

Dairy farming may cause suffering but its to some extent minimised and there is a some utility in it - production of food.

Fox hunting the cruelty is deliberately maximised ( the chase is made as long as possible and earths blocked up) and there is no utility to it at all

Pardon me TJ, but that's bollocks.

There is no need for you to drink milk.
You choose to inflict cruelty and suffering on another animal for your pleasure.
Just because it's done vicariously does not mitigate your responsibility for that animals suffering.
We have access to plenty of food without having to making animals suffer to provide it.

YOU choose to eat meat and drink milk.
YOU are responsible for the suffering and death of that animal, purely to satisfy your desires.

Don't attempt to take the moral high ground just because you're at one remove from the slaughter.

The 'utility', as you choose to call it is exactly the same - you gain satisfaction from the death of another animal.

Dress your hypocrisy up as many ways as you like - morally, you and a hunter are exactly the same.

BTW, I do eat meat and drink milk.

Rusty - If you cannot see the difference I feel sorry for you.

Its nothing to do with being one remove from slaughter - I know meat is animals and I have seen and helped turn a cow into my dinner. There is no practice in farming no matter how reprehensible some intensive farming can be that is intentional inflicting of pain and suffering. this is the crucial difference

This is why hunting with dogs is in a different category

you have become blind to the fact that the hunting with dogs is about inflicting cruelty and suffering deliberately for entertainment and has no purpose beyond that.

I say again - the hypocrites are those who equate farming with hunting with dogs and who try to confuse the issue by stating spurious comparisons

two wrongs do not make a right. Hunting is cruel, and has no utility at all.

eat the damn fox if you want to kill it!

Fair enough TJ.

Enjoy your cornflakes in the morning. 🙂

🙂

There is no practice in farming no matter how reprehensible some intensive farming can be that is intentional inflicting of pain and suffering.

Yes,
there is,
its called Kosher and Halal slaughter, and, speaking as someone who has hunted, shot, killed, experimented on and farmed animals, it is utterly, utterly reprehensible, and far, far more of an animal welfare and cruelty issue than [i]any[/i] of the other things I've ever seen in that field.

Please TJ, drop your chip on the shoulder class struggle for a minute and educate yourself:

Now you've watched it, can you [i]please[/i] tell me why you refuse to condemn this barbaric & unnecessary practice.