[Closed] Fox hunting on the trails!!!

I agree with you that killing animals for food is a utility, in that they provide a function, food. But what i was trying to state and will admit not being the most eloquent of people,is two things.

Firstly, the hunt provided a livelihood to many people, which i believe has a function or utility, it supported jobs and it helped local farmers in many ways, the same people that supported the hunt were also that often dealt with other vermin (with terriers and gassing), dealt with fence repairs, operated the "knacker wagon" etc. I fully understand that there is something unappealing in any blood sport, but a dog killing a fox, why is it different to lamping rabbits or gassing as a means of control, what people do not like is the tool being used, another animal, and the perception that it is just a sport for toffs.

Secondly the conversation had turned to discussing the aspect of cruelty to animals, what i was trying to say i find people stating that hunting is cruel, should look at what they eat before they comment on the same and the way that is killed, it often being far more brutal and cruel.

scud - he difference is the fox hunting with hounds is deliberately cruel. there are much less cruel ways to control foxes if needed. The whole intent is to pursue the animal until it is exhausted.

I see your point TJ, my fitter, skinnier friends have the same idea with me, buzz my back wheel continually shouting words of "encouragement" whilst I am pedalling like the clappers until exhaustion.

Reply to comments on page 2.

I have witnessed first hand the damage the Fox can do.
My parents keep Hens which are allowed to wonder around there field during the day and housed during the night. Also kept in a fenced pen when not in the field.
Basically on a number of occasions they have been wiped out and always during day light hours. The fox has dug under the pen fence and slaughtered all but 1 hen. The same happened while free in the field, the fox was seen happily making his way down the field with just 1 hen in its mouth.

So you are telling me that your poultry farmer never gets bothered? Might be the fact that the poultry is kept in sheds and not allowed outside.

TJ - how would you control the fox population?

What next Game shooting, fresh water fishing........

I suppose my multi-sports weekend of a bit of bike riding, bull fighting, badger baiting, seal clubbing and cockfighting isn't going to be popular?

Think the latter could get you a bad name and a reputation. 😉

bren - shooting/ trapping / whatever the least cruel way is should it be needed which is very debatable.

Game shooting I do not like but there is a significant moral difference as it is not deliberately cruel

So you are telling me that your poultry farmer never gets bothered?

Might be the fact that the poultry is kept in sheds and not allowed outside.

Except that the vast majority of people on hunts are ordinary people, not "rightwing toffs", who work full time in ordinary jobs and just happen to enjoy riding horses.

What, like John Wayne? 😆

It's true though.

Fox hunting, perceived as a cruel sport, done by toffs, with no worth at all.

Commercial meat production, battery farming, commercial fishing (where much fish/ sea life is killed in nets along with that actually used), veal production etc, that "sort" of cruelty is perfectly acceptable to the masses as they get a tasty burger or something to go with chips?

Personally, i eat meat, always will, but i fail to see how one sort of cruelty (hunting) is so despised, yet other forms of cruelty are perfectable acceptable to most.

Fox hunting, perceived as a cruel sport, done by toffs, with no worth at all.

Well, they're a bit like the Freemasons in some respect - it's the pomp an ceremony of an outdated and bizarre practice that I reckon a lot of people find weird.

Ordinary people go down the club/pub for a pint, without getting their nipple out or rolling their trouser leg up or fellating the Grand Wizard.

Just like an ordinary hunter - he might go out lamping/rabbiting, whatever, but doesn't feel the need to get drunk, dress up like a Beefeater and take 20 dogs along for the ride.

scud - because the hunting with hounds is done in a deliberately cruel manner - not the least cruel possible.

Hunting also has no utility they deliberately do not eliminate foxes from an area nor even take significant numbers. They feed and support the fox population

So its a deliberately cruel pastime that has no purpose beyond the entertainment of people.

do you think badger baiting / bearbaiting / cock fighting is acceptable?

TJ have you ever been shooting or trapping?
No I didn't think so!
It's not as straight forward as you think.
You don't just put a trap down and the fox walks in.
As for shooting you have to be in the right place at the right time. If you get a fox in your lamp and miss the shot you can be sure next time you put your lamp on its gone!

Foxes go for easy food so a field full of poultry would not be safe. So with you previous comments regards your poutry farmer.

I'm sorry I don't believe you!

democracy..
now there's a concept..

So ordinary people don't find mountain bikers weird, with their odd clothing, language and customs...? 😉

If my boss knew that my furious typing was not work, but on this forum, i'd be hunted...

What I don't understand is that the people who are opposed to hunting foxes will quite readily shovel meat down their neck from an animal that has seen nothing but cruelty for it's whole tragic young life.

Bit of a generalisation there really and TBH the genuinely passionate anti-hunt lot are normally not so keen on the meat anyway...
I've never seen "Hound shredded Fox meat" in my local butcher either, so what your point exactly?

I like my Cow/Pig/Lamb/Chicken electrocuted and swiftly brained or decapitated takes seconds not hours and if your gonna do an animal in it's about as "Humane" as practicable, setting a bunch of slathering dog on them isn't really what I'd call "Kind Killing"...

And seriously was several several gits getting dressed up and charging about half pissed on horses, demolishing fences, hedges and generally getting in everyones way with a shed load of dogs to run one fox to ground the most efficient way of controlling vermin?

I'm sure trapping or lamping would actually have worked about as well...

I've nothing in particular against killing foxes or people who want to kill them but the "traditional" method was probably the least efficient way of controling fox numbers...

You can still kill a fox if you want, you just don't get to do it with a pack of dogs and several horses, if you really want to kill them MTFU and do it yourself, no more delegating it to the canines!

As I have sad in previous post's trapping and lamping will work but is not effective, hence the high population of foxes!

A lot of the control was done by the terrier men!

bren2709 - Member

As I have sad in previous post's trapping and lamping will work but is not effective, hence the high population of foxes!

A lot of the control was done by the terrier men!

the hunts claim to have taken more foxes since the legislation 🙂

How come there is not an explosion in fox numbers in areas of no hunts?

Oh FFS - its obvious the legislation was a fudge. Anti's are kept quiet, hunters carry on "pretending" to follow a drag sent and oh, up jumps Mr Fox, so the hounds do as they have always done.

So why waste all the hot air on the topic. The legislation was bollocks and a waste of time on all scores - oh apart from giving hunting an unintended boost in the arm.

Z-11 - The PPT presentation quip was a good one!

THM - I'm disappointed that you actually think I'm joking...

We really did!

How come there is not an explosion in fox numbers in areas of no hunts?

maybe 'cause snare sales went through the roof after the ban (anecdotal evidence from a mate who works for a farm supplies company)

Once again it seems the right wingers on this forum use the excuse of "there are worse things going on so lets bring every thing down to that level"

Personally i find the idea of setting one animal against another for human entertainment barbaric and thoroughly unnecessary, whether that be hound on fox, cock on cock, dog on dog or dog on badger, most of these are considered rightly banned by all, only a minority seem to think hunting foxes with hounds is still acceptable.

I find the idea of un-stunned slaughter also un acceptable and if i had my way would ban that. And whilst their is still some suffering of animals bred for meat consumption that hardly justifies fox hunting with hounds, more that the law and enforcement of laws for animal welfare should be strengthened.

It also pees me off that these hunts try and pretend to represent country dwellers, you don't, i was born, raised and still live in a rural community and the vast majority of people i know disagree on hunting foxes with hounds, not hunting in general as foxes, rabbits, pigeons etc. do need to have there numbers controlled but it is pure fantasy to suggest that the best way is with a pack of dogs.

You really shouldn't have mentioned terrier men.

I now have a very Boosh-esque image in my head now. Body of a man, head of a terrier, wearing a pinstriped suit for some reason... Its been a long day.

if its purely social then drag hunts are the way to go surely - no need for the killing.

the very fact that the hunts have carried on killing - illegally - tells me that there is very much a need for it and that it is a vital part of the ritual.

I don't fox hunt, I find it repulsive, I find the bullying rural hunting crowd that take the law into their own hands, completely obnoxious.

However, as an example of human cultural heritage, it deserves the same protection and respect as any Aboriginal cave painting or any religious doctrine.

so bearbaiting then or badger baiting?

But the antis are missing a few really important points. Without the hunt there would be no pork pies (not that they fill it, more the origin of the popular pie), it's bloody good fun and the totty at hunts is outstanding.

so bearbaiting then or badger baiting?

well,i guess if they do or ever did form the same sort of social action then yes.

but i rather doubt that they ever did, so no.

Bazz - its not in any way a question of "right wingers using an excuse of"

Its a question of "why was hunting so special?"

if your primary interest/argument was enhancing animal welfare, then there's a list of issues as long as your arm that should have been tackled first, as they involve far more cruelty, pain, suffering and distress than hunting ever did. Number one on that list being religious slaughter.

Hunters are asking "why the double standards?" and "why are our traditions and culture any less important than other peoples?"

Of course, we knew the answer all along, and we've seen it in this thread - misguided, chip on your shoulder class war of the worst kind.

Regards cock fighting/badger baiting/dog fighting - don't forget the real reason they were banned, it never had a thing to do with animal welfare, it was primarily motivated by gambling and protecting both government tax revenues and keeping law and order.

[i]And whereas divers Places in and about the Metropolis are kept and used for the Purpose of fighting or baiting of Bears or other Animals, at which Places idle and disorderly Persons commonly assemble, to the Interruption of good Order and the Danger of the public Peace;[/i]

It also pees me off that these hunts try and pretend to represent country dwellers, you don't,

Not much of a sweeping statement there....Just saying as a country dweller,like. Anybody trying to pretend the ban on hunting was ANYTHING but an attempt to put one over on the toffs is full of crap.

TandemJeremy - Member
So you are telling me that your poultry farmer never gets bothered?
yes
Might be the fact that the poultry is kept in sheds and not allowed outside.
no
POSTED 2 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

On another note good to see TJ spouting the usual. Now it would seem foxes don't take chickens? So who is it? Angry Muslamic swans? Honey badgers perhaps?

teamhurtmore - Member

Oh FFS - its obvious the legislation was a fudge. Anti's are kept quiet, hunters carry on "pretending" to follow a drag sent and oh, up jumps Mr Fox, so the hounds do as they have always done.

I quite agree. It is also errr, interesting to look back at what other things nulab were putting through the commons at the time of the fox hunting bill... Excellent smokescreen! 😈

Might as well lock this thread now.

An anti will never, ever change their mind
TJ will never, ever change his mind.

The two together might well be critical mass, the forum will implode and i'll actually have to interact with real people (and I dont fancy that at all!)

So should we ban horse racing, jumps, flat makes no difference, it serves no purpose other than to let some people gamble, if a horse gets injured just shoot it. What about greyhounds, everyone knows about the dumped dogs, beaten to death, hung from trees, etc.

I'd eat the remains of a torn to shreds fox if it was fried and battered, that means its now ok, right?

This is probably only becuase I'm hungry and drunk. Ask me again how I feel in the morning?

zulu
Of course, we knew the answer all along, and we've seen it in this thread - misguided, chip on your shoulder class war of the worst kind.

Nonsense.

its about the deliberate cruelty in the name of fun Fox hunting with dogs is cruel by intent. Its nothing to do with controlling vermin its all about having fun by chasing an animal to exhaustion and then killing it. Its intended to be as long a chase as possible.

Hunting with dogs is singled out because of this barbaric deliberate cruelty. the dogs are bred to be slow enough not to catch the prey quickly, the foxes are fed and sheltered to ensure a supply of prey making a nonsense of the killing vermin argument.

Its a disgusting barbaric display of bloodlust and deliberate cruelty for entertainment. its unspeakably vile and indefensible

I do note no one here has actually come up with any defense other than its traditional and we want to do it.

Why defend it?

It's fun and I want to do it. I don't need or want to justify it to myself or anyone else.

So I will when I can. I hope my kids do to.

I do note no one here has actually come up with any defense other than its traditional and we want to do it.

I have heard plenty of people come up with arguments in its favour, employment, removing fallen live stock, pest control, entertainment, and tradition, That you have not seen the points must say something about your selective reading of the thread.

Whilst I don't agree with fox hunting, the alternatives, snaring where an animal is left to die in agony and will bite its own leg off to escape is hardly friendly, we could try baited traps and poison the foxes, there is the obvious colateral loses, shooting, and when the shot doesn't kill but wings the fox? If you need to control the fox population and at some point a method of control is needed, what do you do?

But TJ - there's a whole variety of things that are deliberately and/or unnecessarily cruel, vile and indefensible - factory farming, battery chickens, and, as mentioned, religious slaughter

So, once again "why was hunting so special?"

So, once again "why was hunting so special?"

Because, as was hinted at before, its done by people who are perceived to be "toffs". And thats pretty much it it.

I don't think it is a case of "so special" more of a place to start seeing as i believe it was in the Labour parties manifesto, hopefully within time the other acts of cruelty will also be banned. Just because there are other acts of cruelty to animals isn't a reason to keep one going.

I don't think it is a case of "so special" more of a place to start seeing as i believe it was in the Labour parties manifesto, hopefully within time the other acts of cruelty will also be banned. Just because there are other acts of cruelty to animals isn't a reason to keep one going.

If that was the case, why not frame one piece of legislation that banned all forms of animal abuse, no shooting of any wild animal, be it pest or not, why is it acceptable to shoot rabbits, pheasants, crows, magpies? why is it acceptable to catch fish? etc etc

The law as enacted is nothing more than the labour party playing to their urban vote, it had nothing to do with animal welfare, if that had been the aim there are far more important issues that should have been addressed first.

i went for a spin in my local woods one day and i met gee atherton at a foxhunt there !!

why is hunting so special - because of the deliberate cruelty involved - the chase is deliberately drawn out, the animal is run to exhaustion tehn torn to pieces by dogs

mrmo - Member

I do note no one here has actually come up with any defense other than its traditional and we want to do it.

I have heard plenty of people come up with arguments in its favour, employment

, removing fallen live stock,

pest control

, entertainment, and tradition,

Is this really good enough? would draghunts not perfom the same function?

I do note no one here has actually come up with any defense other than its traditional and we want to do it.

i don't think that any other [i]defence[/i] is needed

Its a disgusting barbaric display of bloodlust and deliberate cruelty for entertainment. its unspeakably vile and indefensible

your argument is similarly based upon what you want, enforced by the assumption that your values are inherently right.

I think morals are fairly widely accepted across the country and world. To inflict suffereing deliberately is immoral. tis is why the vast maority of the population are against it

Do you think badger baiting is acceptable? its still goes on but is mainly a working class thing.