[Closed] Four bar to single pivot: Did you notice much difference? Pro's and cons?

[tannoy] Orange fan boys to the forum [/tannoy]

Only difference for me is down something steep and hard on the brakes. I feel the back skittering about where my old Hemlock would track fine. That's all really, so less than 1% of any ride.

Geometry is far more important.

They climb and sprint better because they firm up under load, they are easier to maintain, and they handle anything as well as everything else, whats not to like.

The brake jack is a load of shite, four bar is just as bad, hence Trek trying to solve it with their ABP, which doesn't actually work that well from personal experience.

Go and ride one and see for yourself.

I swapped from an orange to a lapierre - the latter is definitely better going down and up, loads of vairables though not as simple as single vs 4 pivots

Lapierre's are all linkage driven single pivot, he didn't ask what manufacturer you prefer 🙄

You can't make a simple comparison between 4 bar and single pivot - there are too many factors within each design - chiefly pivot height.

Lots of BS on this thread already!

Too late to test ride, the frame has been bought! Firming up under load sounds good, as does the simplicity, bearing changes should be much less of a ball ache.

But what about the dreaded brake jack? It totally really exists you know

2003 S works enduro
2004 Azonic saber
2004 Big hit
2006 Demo 8
2008 Sx trail
2010 pitch pro

changing to 2009 Orange alpine 160

So you don't have to listen to pages of BS opinions, here's a link with an overview of suspension designs

http://www.norco.com/news/241/suspension-overview-pros-and-cons/

personally VPP was better climbing - but i prefer to stand up and grunt.
Orange bounces if you try this so you sit and spin and concentrate on smooth pedalling. Orange is not as firm either - more responsive so better down hill [ but it has 40 mm more travel and different newer chock so this cannot be ignored.
I would rather ride VPP up and single down- bit pointless asking if you have purchased though you will soon know the answer for you.

Any information produced by a manufacturer will be biased, and journalists appear to base their reviews on press releases. So it's tough to find useful information about this!

Seems to me pivot height is the main factor. a horst link near the dropout will make **** all difference to axle path.

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/buyers-guide-to-mountain-bike-suspension-part-1-28367

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/buyers-guide-to-mountain-bike-suspension-part-2-28438

Some more reading for you, the Norco link was still correct though.

I've gone from a Maestro - modified VPP (Trance) to Floating pivot (Pace RC405) to single pivot (Five) to DW (Mojo SL) to VPP2 (Blur LTc) and now single pivot (Alpine 160).

The Pace prob felt the plushest, the Mojo climbed the best and the Alpine just feels ace on the descents.

The Trance went through bearings as did the Blur LTc, and when you need specialist tools to remove bearings/linkages then it can become expensive to keep replacing bits. People can slag off single pivot (and yes on really steep rocky alpine descents you can feel the backend become less plush under braking) but in the uk where we have rain/mud and lots of grit they just make sense.

Bear in mind Yeti, Commencal and Lapierre are all single pivot (albeit linkage driven) so suffer with the same issues mentioned, but with extra bearings 🙂

Lapierre's aren't linkge driven single pivots....Zesty/Spicy are a variant of the horst link (there's a pivot on the chainstay) and the X-Control has some wierd VPP style links in behind the BB I think.

I noticed a difference between the old style Fuel Ex linkage driven single pivot and the Lapierre Zesty. More travel on the latter maybe, but it felt way better.

I think a coil shock also makes a lot of difference to how it would feel.

There is an excellent article about brake jack [url= http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?35572-quot-Brake-jack-quot-an-explanation. ]here[/url].

flow - Member
Lapierre's are all linkage driven single pivot, he didn't ask what manufacturer you prefer

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

😯

Well that must come as a HUUUUGE surprise to Gilles & Nico then

love single pivots! Love the taught feel when pedalling and the ease of living with them.Not really ever used much else tho. One thing i do know is i don't like pedalling a kona stinky.

i prefer 4 bar.

which kind of proves beyond any doubt that 4 bar is better.

I like both.

Good article toys19, puts the brake jack issue to bed I think.

Just remembered I had a kona coiler too, don't remember any problems and thought it rode quite well for what it was.

I thought you DGAS?

I don't. I like good bikes.

Glad that's cleared up!

Who? What?

Bear in mind Yeti, Commencal and Lapierre are all single pivot

Lapierre's aren't linkge driven single pivots

Cant believe I wrote that 🙂

Although in fairness i doubt stinkys were really designed for pedalling much

Four bar is better on square edged hits I've read. They track better. Feel more planted. Your in the bike not on the bike. There we are, some bullshit that was missing.

Lapierre's are all linkage driven single pivot

I can't believe I wrote that either, but to be fair I have actually never noticed the pivot on the chain stay.

I've gone from Orange 5 to Zesty to Nicolai Helius AM to Heckler.

Single pivot for me! Zesty just blew through it' s travel way too easily despite constant fettling of shock pressure (before it snapped!) and the Helius was just plain boring. It never felt particularly fast and was just un-inspiring to ride.

Heckler (with a coil shock) is just superb. Fast when you pedal hard and soaks up square edged hits much better than the Helius did.

As mentioned already though, i think geometry is also a big factor in things.

jam bo - Member
[s]Geometry[/s][b]Rider[/b] is far more important.

jam bo - Member
[s]Geometry[/s]Rider is far more important.

What does the rider have to do with what type of bike he should buy?

He can hardly buy skills from the bike shop.

i think Jambo's point [b]possibly[/b] was that single pivot suit some folk. 4 bar others. Or maybe that learning adapt to whatever you have is the key.

I think this makes sense as I like single pivot because i like hardtails at heart. Having said that maybe a nice plush 4 bar would be a massive constrast too.

IMHO, bike design is mature enough that there really aren't many crap bikes anymore. Everyone has a preference and youve already bought your alpine (so it sounds) so ride the badboy and make your own mind up rather than be spoonfed bullshit on here.

oh dear i think i have listened to the bs. 😳

I like single pivots, my Heckler is sooo nice. I'm sure this has been done 100's of times before and will become another great [s]keyboard warrior argument[/s] discussion 😀

Take the shock into account too. Been riding a TR450 single pivot with a cane creek double barrel and absolutely loving it. Set up very soft initially but with plenty of compression damping and the rear end feels great, more control and grip than I've ever felt on any previous bike. Ok it's a DH bike so comparisons for pedalling etc probably not much help but in terms of control... for me it's been a revelation over previous bike set-ups.

GW how does the rider affect the enjoyment of what type of bike he wants to ride?

Laps use what they call OST, Intense and Santa Cruz call it VPP. Essentially the same thing just done slightly differently. It's explained [url= http://www.lapierre-bikes.co.uk/lapierre/all-mountain-bike/2011;jsessionid=AE87F0EB61B179CB6EB2B0F02650D95B ]here[/url]

Cracking....see what I did, did you? Trollll-a-lollll

good grief. Know i know why i love ht's 🙂

To answer the OP - no.

The single pivots I've had:
Orange Sub5, patriot LT, patriot 66, 224, 2006 5 & 2011 5; cannondale Gemini.

4 bars ive had:
Norco A-line, Titus Supermoto, nicolai helius FR, ST, CC

I've ridden most of these all over UK and in the Alps, including events such as Mega, Passportes, odd DH race and plenty of trail centres

except for the Norco A-line, which was terrible to another dimension, they were all pretty much of a much.

I've never felt that brake jack or whatever it is (rear becoming rigid under hard braking) has ever reduced the enjoyment, or even been that noticeable. The things I loved about the Oranges is the fact is I never had o change the pivot bearings, despite using year round and jet washing, and the speed they seem to gain when pumping the terrain. The 4 bars are, perhaps, more refined but I currently have a CCDB on the FR so that may be influencing that.

There really isn't much between any of the designs.

lol. 🙂

I love HT's too, it's just that wasn't the question 😉

GW how does the rider affect the enjoyment of what type of bike he wants to ride?

What does the rider have to do with what type of bike he should buy?

He can hardly buy skills from the bike shop.

Told you it would 😆

GW your post is still irrelevant.

BUt seriously, how can you continue to deprive the mtbing world of your skilz?

Why not start a skills school? Think: you'd be a millionaire, and the standard of riding in the UK would be transformed.

shitty single pivot

Smooth link is the best 😛

neallyman, I actually said "a shitty single pivot design"

Al - 9 bikes you little gimp

If the OP managed to keep a bike for more than a year then he could probably afford to buy a bike of both design.

My old bike had one pivot my knew one has 4 apparently. Did it influence my decision to buy? Nope not one bit, I bought the bike that I like riding the most.

All hail the all knowing GW. 🙄

GW is actually Gary Weagle, Dave Weagle's evil twin brother, we have much to learn from him.

He is from the place where they have short arms and deep pockets 😆

Apparently he has already started setting up single pivot concentration camps in a bid to rid the world of their uselessness.

In his perfect world, multi-pivot frames will rule, and single pivots will either be crushed, or made to work as slaves!

Some of the fastest riders I know ride single pivots. Modern shock technology means there is really very little to tell between various designs. I find fit (especially reach) and geometry are far more important factors when choosing a bike. The two most recent linkage driven single pivots really feel no worse/better than full linkage systems. In some respects too much linkage can take all the feel out of the ride and can leave you with little connection to the earth and certainly the Cane Creek makes single pivots feel like a linkage bike.

Best plan is to get the right geometry and fit then try all the bikes that work for your body and buy the one that rides best for you.

"9 bikes" WTF?

Your willy-waving is usually better than that.

Duir has the knowledge GW wishes he had

Perhaps having 9 bikes = expert/pro rider..

Don't open the modern shock technology argument .you will have the so called industry experts crying into their free download of linkage ,posting their anti squat curves and trying to find a tiny point of difference to flog their bikes.

Motorbkies still use a shitty single pivot design often with just one swinging arm.
Trolling surely

Most modern motorbikes use a linkage driven single pivot so you can adjust the rising rate.

flow - Member
Duir has the knowledge GW wishes he had

Is every single pivot design exactly the same? No. Does every single pivot design behave the same? again, No. So can some single pivot designs perform worse than others? er.. Yes! hence me referring to a "shitty" single pivot design in my example (there are "shitty" linkage designs too)
but apparently it makes **** all difference because simply fitting a Cane Creek Double Barrel shock to the shittiest single pivot ever designed can not only transform the suspension performance, it is somehow able to change the braking characteristics too. 🙄

That's the worst backtracking I've seen in a while.

Could you name some 'shitty single pivots' that are currently manufactured? (and cost more than £150 and aren't sold by Lidl)
1995, sure loads, put that was a while back.
They all appear to put their pivot point in nigh on an identical position nowadays, so any shittyness would appear to be a function of joint and frame stiffness (a problem not unique to single pivots) rather than pivot geometry.

There's an awful lot of BS going on here. It's very hard to give aa definitive answer as to which suspension system works best.

Both of my bikes are four-bar designs, but they feel very different on the trail. One seems to exhibit far more pedal influence than the other, while the second bike feels very plush at the expense of pedal efficiency.

I've even ridden two Horst Link bikes that feel very different to one another. I've given up on favouring any system over the other, the proof of it is in the riding.

ChunkyMTB - Member

That's the worst backtracking I've seen in a while.