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fuzzhead fair enough tho "i can feel the movement of the bike more" sounds a bit nebulous.
Chief I suggested hardtails promote line choice a while back but was (possibly correctly) shot down, you can choose to do things correctly or choose not to, forcing the issue isn't needed and doesn't always work anyway. Sorry but the fluidity line sounds a bit airy fairy cobblers TBH. There's a lot of it around mountain biking, flow, oneness, purity of singlespeed, etc I'm partial to quite a bit of it myself but it doesn't really stand up to rational examination.
Am tempted to dig out the flat pedals again tho for a bit of of a play
So flattists, what is the attraction of flat pedals?
For me, it's familiarity and the simplicity of flats.
Put your feet on (whatever shoes you happen to have on) and go. I can also let someone else have a go on my bike too - no 'special' shoes required. More basic design with less moving parts = less cleaning/maintenance which i like.
I've always rode flats and see no reason to change. I'm partial to a bit of jumping and the odd skid and flats work well for me. If i had a road background, i'd probably be a clipper, but i was a bmx boy.
The advantages of clips are not required as i don't take cycling seriously.
"Nebulous" - like it! 🙂 Yeah it's a bit fluffy
I guess I mean that as, IME, clipless shoes have stiffer soles, I get more feedback via flat pedals and corresponding shoes.
The advantages of flats for me, are that they're more secure for jumping, and they're easier to get your foot back on in a hurry. Unclipping is easy, clipping back in on a steep wet trail, when you need to have the bike weighted for a hairpin the opposite way in 2secs time is asking for disaster. (I've not found a pair of spds that I'm happy to ride on, unclipped). Flats are also great for ditching the bike when it's about to go horribly wrong.
I mix and match both. Riding spuds teaches you commitment, lets you put more power down and is great for smashing through rock gardens really quickly. They're also way better for limit of strength technical climbs. Riding flats makes you think how you weight the bike more, is far more fun on greasy corners and is much better for truly terrifying stuff, where failing to get off the bike will put you in hospital at the very least. I'm a feet up rider, so largely it shouldn't make a difference what I ride, but if it's properly hairy, I'd still rather be on flats.
Flats for fun, clips for racing is not a bad description, I guess.
Flats make me feel like I'm going out to play and have fun when I get on the bike. Clipless is, like, far more serious dude 😉
Flats definitely make me a better rider, because if I'm not relaxed and fluid my feet will be kicked off
Flats allow mid-air 'oh eck I'm not gonna make that' bails
Flats taught me about timing, compression and heels down
I ride up hills in order to ride down them. I hated being clipped in descending, but cos my bike is a prehistoric lump being clipped in is a good idea for the climbs. So I run SPDs, as loose as possible, with multi-release cleats. I can bail just as fast as with flats.
World class downhill riders will figure out what they need, but for those of you with biggish bikes who ride up what you ride down, my approach might be worth a look.
Still, it's interesting that (to my knowledge) no motocross, trials, or enduro rider has EVER thought about clipping their boots to the pegs. But it could be that placement of pedals as a means to provide thrust put them in the wrong place as somewhere to stand, and vice versa, so presence of clips and positioning and geometry all wander round the various compromises.
The biggest issue is: are pedals you clip into really called clipless? 😯
Sorry but the fluidity line sounds a bit airy fairy cobblers TBH.
In an non airy fairy way it's ensuring the net forces acting on each foot and its corresponding pedal are sufficiently similar in both magnitude and direction that the stiction and friction between pins and sole are enough to keep the feet on the pedals. Smack through a rock garden hard enough and unless you ride through with good technique your feet will be bounced off the pedals. Ride clipless and you can be much messier without your feet coming off the pedals. If your feet are getting kicked off the pedals then your tyres are being subject to rapidly changing vertical forces which means your grip will be inconsistent and you will be losing speed as the suspension compresses and extends more than need be and the bike gains and loses height.
Interesting set of ideas IMO; the argument that Slacker modern DH bikes are better suited to riding clips sort of makes sense to my mind, also the idea that riding clipped in conserves a bit of energy as riders aren't having to carry out all the little adjustments to keep their feet positioned/reposition them as they patter about etc sort of makes sense too I suppose...
I don't believe that its as straight forwards as Cunny makes it seem, courses can vary quite a bit and where you might argue that clips allow a rider to stay connected in the worst steep, rough, technical sections, or pedal better on a pedally course you could equally argue a highspeed sections where the balance is more towards pumping and carrying speed has no real bias towards clips, hence putting flats on a level playing field under certain conditions.
For my own part I've chosen to go clipped in for DH now, not because I can't ride flats (I spent the preceeding 15 or so years on flats) but because I see some benefit in keeping my feet firmly, mechanically fixed to the pedals requiring a minimum amount of effort to stay on through rough sections and forcing the disipline of keeping my feet on the pedals and riding with more commitment through corners and dealing with slides, rather than dabbing...
I think the nerves/assumption that clips are "More Dangerous for DH" primarily comes from peoples belief that being connected to the bike in a crash is always the most terrible thing or that they won't be able to clip out, but for the most part crashes on clips are about as bad as those on flats, many of my stacks when riding flats finished with me and the bike tangled up together anyhow, and a few were caused by slipping or popping off of flats... I find I ride with a bit more commitment on clips; I'm on the bike and I am goint concerntrate and hit that corner/jump/root section and just don't countenance the possibility of needing a dab...
But ultimately people should ride what they are happiest on, if you try tham and find that clips just aren't your bag then don't force it, better to be happy on the bike and progress than using what you are told it "Best" and actually be held back by it...
I've been thinking about going back to clipless for a while as generally i prefer being clipped in but......
for those moments when you lose traction going up something steep and technical, or those moments when you go off line and come to a sudden stop on a technical downhill - having to get going again whilst clipping back in is just awkward!
chief, righty ho, I get ya, possibly back to "forcing you to do it right" again, but I see your point.
I like the idea of flats for playtime and the current ultra low profile flatties available do appeal but nowadays I have so little time for just playing around, when I do get time to ride I end up doing some "proper" riding, so lot's of pedalling and clips will always win for me on that score
In short they help you develop better pedalling and riding technique because you can't 'cheat' by being attached to the pedals.
From my experience of going back to flats I reckon this is true, though I could be imagining it. Now my riding technique is so perfectly 'dialled' though, I'm going to give clips a go again. 😉
On the pedalling front:
http://www.leelikesbikes.com/sprinting-with-clips.html
http://www.leelikesbikes.com/breaking-200.html
having to get going again whilst clipping back in is just awkward!
The main disadvantage for me.
Flats are for muddy days when you cleats would get clogged.
So basically spds let you take rougher lines. In some cases this will be faster.Smack through a rock garden hard enough and [s]unless you ride through with good technique [/s]your feet will be bounced off the pedals. Ride clipless and you can be much messier without your feet coming off the pedals.
The biggest issue is: are pedals you clip into really called clipless?
Yes. Originally people wore toe-clips on their pedals. When Look created the first of what we call clipless pedals they were named that because they're pedals that lack the toe-clip, hence clipless. Easy.
This turned into an excellent discussion of clips and flats (as opposed to clips versus flats 😉 )
i can feel the movement of the bike more
This is the key reason I prefer flats. I know it sounds nebulous and it may be that there are other combinations of clipped in pedal and shoe that would give the same degree of sensitivity through the feet than the ones I've subsequently tried since moving to flats. If I could get close to that feeling on clips I would definitely give them another go.
The sensitivity is about 'feeling' when the bike is about to slip (or maybe feeling the slip sooner so that you can correct or get a foot down quicker).
The difference between many of us and the Pro DHers may be that they will know in advance where the slips are going to come and set the bike up in advance of that.
Either way, the ability to feel what the bike is doing is the key advantage of flats for me. Ironically, riding hard and fast through big rocky sections is something I can do very well on flats. I've never felt disadvantaged being on flats here, whereas on the smoother BMX type sections of trail I have felt that being clipped in would help. It may well be that I am heavy and carry speed well through rocks and can remain 'planted' on the bike as a result.
Talking to a guy in the LBS (a very talented rider), we both concluded that peak speed on flats would likely be higher as you can commit more to turns knowing you can get a foot down to correct should you need to, whereas clipped in would give you a lower peak but a smoother track, i.e. ability to maintain higher average speeds.
How do you feel the bike slipping quicker with flats than clipped in? It doesn't make any sense to me. Assuming you're riding flats properly you'll be as attached as you would on clipless pedals so I don't see how it'd be any different.
That's very interesting geetee. When a bike starts to slip sideways, does its decreased lateral acceleration mean that you feel your feet go lighter? If your feet are clipped to the pedals does that mean you don't feel them unweighting in the same way because the forces are transferred higher up the leg?
Although this difference seems logical I suspect it's a case of recalibrating your brain to clips (I'm not calling them clipless any longer, it's a case of four letters!) so that you continue to sense the loss of grip accurately.
Another thought: Until you're at a high level of skill, you're not going to loading the bike as well as possible in corners (pumping for grip). Do flats promote loading the tyres when cornering because weighting the pedals is critical to keeping your feet on them? Once this habit is ingrained it then transfers to clips.
Here is another piece of excellent information for those trying to understand clipless and flats.
[url= http://www.mbr.co.uk/shoes/tech-fabien-barels-clipless-pedal-tips/ ]Fabian Barel on clips vs flats[/url]
Going from carbon soled disco slippers on dinky XTR pedals to 5/10 impacts on DMR Vaults is a massive change in levels of feeling.
With the disco slippers your connected to the bike in all directions but it's a small metal to metal connection which has some float.
With Impacts on Vaults it's like your glued to the pedal unless you physically remove the weight... there is absolutely more feel through the Impacts on flats.
Both are good. I pedal better with SPDs for sure.
But I like the sensitive feel of flats. I like the way I can dab when things go squirrely, but then find the pedal immediately; I found re-clipping on rough trails super difficult/scary, but maybe pedals like the XTR Trails would help with that.
I use flats on my HT and don't start bouncing off until I get tired. Sticky shoes help, but mostly it's the technique of keeping heels low and legs relaxed.
Cunny may have a point about these long slack DH bikes (I've never tried one). The front wheel is a long way forward, and being clipped requiring less forward-back movements in-and-out of corners, to make it grip and carve the turn. The effect is not obvious to me as I ride trail bikes with 69/68 degree head angles!
How do you feel the bike slipping quicker with flats than clipped in?
I think it's because the soles of flat pedal shoes are thinner and less rigid. SPDs require the sole to be fairly stiff in order to get the support you need and power transfer that is a key benefit for riding clipped in.
Flat pedal shoes don't need that design feature so you get more information coming up through the pedal and shoe and can 'feel' what's going on through the soles of your feet, much like you feel the grip that a car is getting on a road/race track through your bottom.
And this is actually a really insightful explanation that I hadn't thought about until I read it here and on reflection feels like it hits the nail on the head:
When a bike starts to slip sideways, does its decreased lateral acceleration mean that you feel your feet go lighter?
That said, I think that this statement is likely to be entirely correct:
Although this difference seems logical I suspect it's a case of recalibrating your brain to clips (I'm not calling them clipless any longer, it's a case of four letters!) so that you continue to sense the loss of grip accurately.
BTW the reference to them being 'clippless' seems contradictory but it's a road legacy, from when people used clips and straps to attach their foot to the pedal and when Look launched their 'clipless' ski binding pedal, the name stuck.
We all used clips and straps on mountain bikes back in the day, long after the road had ditched them, until Shimano came up with the SPD.
I think it's because the soles of flat pedal shoes are thinner and less rigid. SPDs require the sole to be fairly stiff in order to get the support you need and power transfer that is a key benefit for riding clipped in.
I ride the big fat DX SPD's and a pair of old oakley shoes, with the cleats right back, that in no way could be described as rigid. Am I getting as much feel as super skinny flat's and a nice pair of vans? probably not. But not all SPD combinations are disco slippers.
I've been pedal secure and low profile for a long time prior 5-10's 🙂
Am I getting as much feel as super skinny flat's and a nice pair of vans? probably not. But not all SPD combinations are disco slippers.
This
This is what I suspected may be the case and as I said above, if I could find that combination, most likely I would give SPDs another go.
Is there more flexibility in cleat position on shoes now? Most I've seen have the cleat located way too far forwards for more downhill oriented MTBing. I wouldn't want it under my arch but I'd like it just behind the ball of my foot.
Some great analysis here. The head angle has only been discussed here a tad, but the whole issue of weight distribution in the PB article is a big part of the shift. Cleats keep you on despite bumpiness (as pointed out by Chief), flats call on the rider to drive the bike from behind and that means many use the old-skool arse back position.
I've been to a few coaching sessions over summer for a uni study; Jedi, Bob Campbell, Ed Oxley and Andy Barlow (Dirt School) all consistently encouraged riders to be taller on the bike and more neutral in their riding. You can still be heels down, but not necessarily cheeks right back.
Gwin has his cleats right back, similar to a flat contact position. He also rides his suspension hard but has no risk of bouncing off his pedals due to the cleats.
I personally prefer big flats and 5tens. My knees like it better and I feel I'm more active in controlling my bike. My Vaults feel more supportive than the SPD shoe/pedal combinations I've tried before (excluding road SPD with carbon shoes). As said, if I was a racer I'd probably clip in. But I'm not, so I won't! I think for many riders into jumping as well as singletrack it makes sense to have the safety margin of flats. For more dedicated XC whippets, clipping in is logical. 5tens and Rapha don't really go 😉
Interesting and surprisingly good natured discussion!
I've not ridden on flats as a grown up; moving from toe clips and straps to SPDs as soon as they appeared. I feel that in the case of early head down long stem mountain biking and cyclocross, the advent of clipless pedals was a godsend.
It's interesting to see that the longer, more laid back DH style is pushing a move to clipless, because the opposite in xc and cross made clips almost de rigeur.
Edit: that Fabien lad knows his stuff, for sure...
Hmm. I ride both clipless and flats and can't say I feel the bike any differently. I feel more confident on the flats on downhills but that's a false sense of security I think. That said, going uphill I feel far more confident on clipless pedals as it feels easier to move the bike around. Again, I know this is a false feeling really.
I'll keep riding both because I'm an awkward bugger and it means I can be contrary irrespective of what people think is best 😉
I'll keep riding both because I'm an awkward bugger and it means I can be contrary irrespective of what people think is best
LOL - I like this admission!
ive got a whyte 905 SS with spds for training on during the week, and then a giant trance x on flats for the weekend when i go further afield. tried the giant last weekend at Gisburn with the spd's on it, not sure what i prefer though as clipped in i had less confidence over tricky bits but was faster over the rest of it, next day i tried flats on the same trail and preferred the spd's at first, until i got to the tricky bits which i was much faster on with the flats.
either way i fell off once on each ride so will be sticking to flats for a while longer till i learn to unclip quicker.
D0NKSo flattists, what is the attraction of flat pedals? I thought it was the option to get a foot out or bail if things go squirrelly. If you're not crashing or can manage to unclip just fine when needed (either by mincing or riding within your limits or just by being awsum) then there's not much point. Or is there some other reason/s?
I learned to ride on flat pedals as a young child. In fact for the first, I dunoo, twenty years of my cycling life I was blissfully unaware that there was an alternative, so flats for me have always been just natural. It's natural, comfortable and automatic.
I certainly see the racing advantage of clips, but I don't need or care for that racing advantage. And as for unclipping, I've seen far to many crashes followed by the 'I couldn't unclip" excuse.
The head angle has only been discussed here a tad, but the whole issue of weight distribution in the PB article is a big part of the shift. Cleats keep you on despite bumpiness (as pointed out by Chief), flats call on the rider to drive the bike from behind and that means many use the old-skool arse back position.
I don't think geo is as big a factor as Cunny is making out tbh. I think it simply comes down to the fact that these guys are fighting for .001s of a second and any tiny pedalling advantage, any advantage at all for that matter will be telling. Hence the transition to clips as they hunt for split seconds.
I don't think bike geo was holding back Nico, Peaty, Barel, Minnaar a few years ago when they were winning races and world champs clipped in, any more than it was playing into Hill's hands when he was dominating. It was the rider on the day, not the bike.
Furthermore, Gwinny's Trek is far from being a long slack sled relative to other race bikes, and it doesn't seem to be holding him back.....and further....um...'ermore McDonald's Mondraker is easily one of the longest, slackest out there.
Going from carbon soled disco slippers on dinky XTR pedals to 5/10 impacts on DMR Vaults is a massive change in levels of feeling.
And there are a million option between 🙂
Currently running new Mallets with 5.10 Minaars such a difference to my old Spec BG shoes even on big pedals.
Not that stiff as they are designed to work with platformed pedals there is more "feel" than using a rigid shoe with small contact area. There is also a lot of feedback from the small pedal that is useful.
I do everything clipless mostly as thats what I've done. Like riding flats you have to overcome some of the issues before being happy. One of the key ones is an irrational desire to remove your foot from the most useful place while riding something had.
Interesting reading this - I have been on clipless for... years... and never had decent flats or shoes before that (nylon pedals and trainers/walking boots).
Is it worth giving flats another go? I am happy with clipless, but I have been having some unrelated knee problems of late which made themselves known when I was standing and mashing a couple of weeks back.
If so - what do you suggest pedal/shoe wise without breaking the bank (ie as cheaply as I can get away with going to try it without compromising the experience too much!). Guessing my running trainers would probably not be considered good enough?
I'd say get some cheap skate shoes (TK Maxx is usually good for these) as they have a stiffer sole and then you can just buy some pedals you can afford. DMR v8 and Nukeproof Electron are 25-30 quid and pretty grippy.
DMR v8 and Nukeproof Electron are 25-30 quid and pretty grippy.
although arguably a decade apart in terms of thickness. (slimmer pedals are the new trend in flat's - lower centre of gravity, and less propensity for the pedal to cam around the axle) Don't be put off by the nylon body on the electrons, thery'e a slim, tough, grippy pedal for the money.
I'm unabashedly old school with my flats, buts that's just because v8's refuse to die!
Oh aye, further to earlier in the thread, looks like Loic Bruni won the junior worlds on flats, making it 4 years on the jog I think, possibly 5. (Loic seems to swap back and forth)
Capt. Kronos - MemberIs it worth giving flats another go?
I reckon so. If nothing else, you'll know for sure which you prefer. And you might find it helps you as a learning tool. But lots of people do have a half-assed stab at the other pedal type, never get any familiarity or skill with it, then dismiss it... [i]Not[/i] worth doing 😉
I havent read the article or the thread. But the answer is:
If you want to go as fast as possible then use SPD's
If you want to have as much fun as possible then use flat pedals
I havent read the article or the thread. But the answer is:If you want to go as fast as possible then use SPD's
If you want to have as much fun as possible then use flat pedals
No it isn't
No it isn't
Where's your proof?
Where's your proof?
Wheres yours?
Road cyclists and bmx riders.
Same.
Though I can tell you I experience no difference in fun on a road bike or on a bmx. Maybe I have more fun on a road bike actually as I seem to ride that a lot more than BMX these days. Also I used to rid/race dh on flats. I now ride just epic xc rides in clips and I prefer riding clips and going down tech descents in clips etc.
So I would say the type of pedal you have has no bearing on the fun.
Pity. This thread has been good reading until now, with some interesting views discussed.
I jump back and forth depending on what I'm feeling like. I had run purely SPD on all bikes, until getting into uplift/DH/Mega stuff a few years back, and really wanted to work on my skills at the same time. So, switched over to flats on most of my bikes. Over the last few years, I've been seeing more and more guys running SPD at regional DH races, but I've stuck to the flats out of habit mostly.
I hate spd for releasing when not expected, and they are also a PITA for getting back into once that happens, but the further forward position (for those that have not read the article) is something that has got me thinking about switching back and forth a little more, even on my DH bike.
If you want to go as fast as possible then use SPD's
If you want to have as much fun as possible then use flat pedals
But what if your fun is going as fast as possible?
I'm not sure I agree with everything RC says in that article, but the power metrics from Lee's article are interesting and make compelling reading.
I think the thing about clips or not is it's a matter of preference - racing or no, conditions, what you like, etc etc.
Nico used flats from time to time to great advantage when the tracks/conditions were in their favour
as a long term flats rider i think switching to (mainly) clips has made me a better rider when i do use flats again. more confident.
to be fairl though my first few rides on clips i was scared. then i realised i forget what i`m riding on when it gets interesting so either are good. clips definately better for pedalling for me.
flats for fun. clips for fast.