I got caught up in the hype and spent months bidding on Isla Beinn 20's and was always outbid, then somebody recommended the Orbea MX20, proper bit of kit and I got one that had been ridden once for £120 off ebay. Its a proper bike.
Early rider fans here. We have a belter 16 as it was the lightest (affordable) bike we could find. Significantly lighter than an Isla 14.
Shame the early rider trail 20 is so expensive, we've had to look elsewhere then change tyres etc to get the weight down.
8kg from memory, it was 3 yrs ago. I don’t recall him struggling with it at all. It is considerably heavier than the Isla bike though based on those figures.
As said Isla save most of that weight by fitting tiny tyres. You could do the same to a cheaper bike and save a ton of weight and still money.
The Carrera one though looks like it has typical kid bike geo in that it has a steep HA, which makes them twitchy. If you watch little kids on these tootling down the cycleway they are weaving all over the shop. With our bikes being longer than most and slacker they were far more stable.
fair point molgrip, I'd noticed the geometry looks very different to an adult bike but assumed there was a reason for it....maybe not though. Just looked at the orbea mx16...sweet looking bike! very slack angled hardcore hardtail, formed top and down tubes, I'd be proud to ride a bike like that (without the chain guard and stabilisers....one day 😉 ) I shall take a look at that. Annoyingly they refuse to quote the weight on the website...instead some narrative about go to the lbs and feel it blah blah. Jeez...any busy parent has enough to juggle, I'm just after some info to narrow down my choices before making loads of trips to go and 'feel' a possible kids bike....any parent also knows the kids fall in love with things based on some weird asthetic and th risk of a BSO made from scaffolding being THE must have bike because its got pink streamers on the bars is too high to risk lots of lbs visits too!
applying a bit of control theory to the head angle thing....twitchy also means responsive. Is it needed because other things make the bike stable but unresponsive? i.e. maybe the low CofG....this may mean a bigger lean is needed to initiate a turn for any given head angle? No....I can't be bothered to get my brain working on problems it left behind at university 20 years ago... the easy way to answer it is...oh...take the eldset to the lbs to try them. Maybe if I blindfold her so she can't see the streamers.....
I solved the "pink" issue simply by applying a few pink flower stickers to the silver frame. She was delighted and it actually looked pretty good. A pretty bell and front basket are good accessories too for tarting it up.
@sirromj - We just went straight from a 12" balance bike to a 16" ER Belter aged around 3.5. Both our girls could scoot around faster on balance bikes until they were nearly 4 and then it was a very easy transition. Literally just a few minutes to get used to the pedals, no balance issues.
Monkey jnr was rocking the local parks on his Spesh Hot Walk balance bike to just before his 4th birthday. Got him a CNOC 14 which was perfect. That was his 'going out on proper adventures' bike as he had a shitty BSO to trash elsewhere. Upgraded to a Beinn 20L at 6yrs IIRC (from this parish). Just sold that as it happens. Brilliant in every way except for the grip shift - he never got used to it.
Bottom line: I'd happily go the same route but am well aware many parents are equally happy with offerings from Frog et al.
applying a bit of control theory to the head angle thing….twitchy also means responsive. Is it needed because other things make the bike stable but unresponsive? i.e. maybe the low CofG….this may mean a bigger lean is needed to initiate a turn for any given head angle?
Don't think so. Little kids tend to weave all over the shop, especially when distracted by trailside things which is often. So maximum stability is useful. Not many kids are thrashing tight singletrack and demanding lightening fast steering at that age.
Nothing wrong with the Carrera geometry.
Think your probably seeing things, photos can create weird optical illusions, especially with bike angles.
In the flesh, you wouldn't see a difference. Have had next to mates Hoy's, pinnacle, Isla frog and Wiggins. Looks the same and rides well for the kids to when dealing about.
Have used for 2 kids learning to ride, just good neutral/stable bikes and just goes where they want it to, no twitch no probs.
Littlest kid even got about 2 foot of air on the BMX track and just rolled the landing out really smooth. Great bike.
However, Carrera also do a "girls" model called the star and that's the one to get. Same geo and spec but the top tubes been dropped , bit like a ladies step through shopper or balance bike, so the standover is better for learning.
Prob the most important feature for building confidence.
got caught up in the hype and spent months bidding on Isla Beinn 20’s and was always outbid, then somebody recommended the Orbea MX20, proper bit of kit and I got one that had been ridden once for £120 off ebay. Its a proper bike.
Pah. You could have had our islsabike bheinn for way less than that.
/Worst stealth ad evah
I'm at exactly this stage with my son 3+4 months old. He was scooting past kids on Isla (pedal) bikes at the bmx track (:
I bought a Cuda on his birthday which is ok but too big for him and a bit porky.
I then sat him on the Wiggins Macon 16" last week. Possibly a smidge too big still but not much. he put a few pedals in round the shop and squeezed the brakes. Anyway it felt really light, nice build and i could'nt really fault it at £140 (£154 today). I wont be spending £350 on his first bike. I've seen a few Carrera Cosmos out and about and they looked good but a bit weightier when lifting one up.
The Carrera Cosmos doesn’t look slack in person. It looks more like a mini version of my BFe 275. After the previous BSO hewas bought it was a revelation for him , gave him lots of confidence and he really enjoyed riding it. Micro will have it next.
@neilnevill - I will climb into. The room with some scales at the weekend and weight it. If there is no response by Saturday bump the thread.
Edit- I was hoping they did something similar in the next size up but everything weighed a ton and had that traditional twitchy look.
Edit edit - I’ll measure the head and seat tube angle as well.
Here's my journey...
Ridgeback mx14 - brilliant, light, simple. Lasted boy no.1 from 3 to 6, then boy no.2
Vitus twenty - cheaper and better than equivalent frog/Isla imho due to bigger pedals, wider handlebars, wider rims giving a wider and more stable tyre
Orbea mx24 - got one with my Occam am. Very good, better to get a slightly cheaper one as the one I got was spec'd up and you pay extra for triangular tubes and front forks etc which probably unnecessary. Having said that I spoke to Adam at Biketart and got a very good deal
Frog 65? (26"). Crap. Ridiculously narrow handlebars. Pedals too small. Lasted a year before getting a small proper bike so a waste of time
Couple of skip bikes, unbelievably heavy old things. Not worth the bother but filled a gap
If I did it all again, Vitus all the way but you have to watch the prices as they yo-yo through the year
@neilnevill I wouldn't worry about the weight of the Orbea, they are nice and light.
the vitus 16 looks nice. 7.2Kg with kenda tyres and £180 new on wiggle and CRC
Pah. You could have had our islsabike bheinn for way less than that.
/Worst stealth ad evah
Not at all, do a search on eBay for sold Isla Bheinn 20 Large over the last year and they generally have all sold for about £220+, there's a few outliers, but they appear to be collection only in far away locations that I wouldn't have bid on, in fact one sold for only £75! But that one would have been a 10/11 hour round trip for me. 😁👍
the vitus 16 looks nice. 7.2Kg with kenda tyres and £180 new on wiggle and CRC
That's still pretty heavy for a 16" bike. Especially coming from a 12" super lightweight balance bike. It's actually very close to the weight of our 20" Belter (8 kg), which feels a lot heavier than the 16" version (5.5 kg) when you pick them up. Not saying it would be a major issue, but IMHO weight is king for little girls! Our 6 year old went from the 16 to 20 this summer and at first she really baulked at the 2.5 kg weight difference. It sounds like nothing, but look at how much weight weenies bang on about saving that kind of weight off a 14 kg (30 lb) trail bike!
Wowsers! 5.5! Well, 5.6....i just checked. I thought the Isla was light at 6.2! I tend to feel weight will be a big part of my eldest enjoying the bike, she is tall but so skinny it's not funny. Younger sister, 2 years younger, bosses her about and beats her up at times! I'd not taken much notice of the mentions of the belter...I am now.
It's not cheap new, and looks like but many in eBay, but if she enjoys riding it then it's money well spent. Belter and Isla are the front runners I think.
Belter and Isla are the front runners I think.
I agree for a first pedal bike. What swung me to the Belter was.... the belt. No oil on the clothes, no need for a chain guard, zero maintenance. I had no reservations buying the 20" version either. Both have been brilliant for us and the girls are now both really strong riders.
Yes and remove the guard and replace a heavy chain with a rubber band.. save weight.
8 kg? right the cosmos is too heavy then unfortunately, the isla cnoc 16 is only 6.2Kg
Don't get me wrong (I bought a frog for our tall but skinny 4 year old after all) but I think as people who are "into bikes" we get a bit obsessed about weight and spec. Let's be honest, we probably all learnt on fairly heavy BSO and still enjoyed it and are still doing it now.
Someone said here before that the best bike is the one the child is excited to ride, if that's pink with a basket, streamers and a doll's seat on the back then so be it.
Right, ban me for life
Weighed it. 7kg . Head angle measured at 69.5 using compass clinometer. Measure BFe 275 at 68 in same spot. (Cotic quote 68.6 with 100mm forks). Lots of variables I know, but for what it’s worth approx 70. Also it has very long chain stays.
I forgot to measure the seat tube angle.
Early Rider Belter fan here too.
Ours is from The Hope Academy At £6/month and change for the 20” whenever he’s ready.
Fantastic bike and better spec than mine by a long way! 😂👍
[img] 
[/img]
I bought tip shop bikes for my little fellas. People splash out ridiculous money on bikes that get ridden often but for very short distances so have very little wear except for cosmetics, then they get junked and are easy fixers.
Five year old has his brother's hand-me-down 6speed and is a boss on seesaws and climbs like a champ. Eight year old has a rebuilt 18sp Trek MT60 that we had fun putting together out of donor parts and he's already had a crack at black runs. Fact is they're kids they'll have fun whatever they're riding as long as there's no pressure.
I figure paying off the mortgage quicker will be of more benefit to them in the long run than me trying to impress other parents.
The net cost of buying a decent used Belter or Islabike is negligible once you eventually sell it on. Even if you buy new you can get about 2/3rds of your money back on re-sale.
Certainly isn't going to make any difference to your mortgage, lol!
jeez that hope belter is bling!
really kicking myself that I waited a few seconds too long and missed ot on a really good condition belter very close by yesterday! been outbid on another today...fingers crossed for another in 10 mins...
Not at all, do a search on eBay for sold Isla Bheinn 20 Large over the last year and they generally have all sold for about £220+, there’s a few outliers, but they appear to be collection only in far away locations that I wouldn’t have bid on, in fact one sold for only £75! But that one would have been a 10/11 hour round trip for me.
I'm an outlier. Got a Bheinn 20 small for sale for £90 with no interest at all. TBH it's had a hard life but I'd have been open to offers...... any offers......
🙂
really kicking myself that I waited a few seconds too long and missed ot on a really good condition belter very close by yesterday! been outbid on another today…fingers crossed for another in 10 mins…
Where are you located? We have a pretty mint Belter 16 for sale now our youngest has recently moved onto the 20"
Balls! 2nd highest for the third time in 24 hours! Cent understand how eBay bids work sometimes...I bid £185 and was showing as highest bidder but lost to a bid of £185.35. how was that allowed?
Ooooo, Moshi, I'm south London but can pay postage? Could you pm some photos?
Kids won't appreciate a 'good' bike over a normal one...plus they grow at a staggering rate so utterly pointless investing too much. I got Frogs for my kids but at the time they were pretty reasonably priced, but now their prices have seemed to have take a bit of a hike so they're no longer the value for money prospect they once were and if my kids were young now I wouldn't be investing so much in their bikes.
Ultimately if the kids are properly using the bikes, like we probably did when we were kids, they won't be used for serious cycling, they'll be playthings and will get battered so going for a lightweight bike is not really a good idea, you want something robust, that will be dropped, bashed about, picking up scratches, scrapes, crashed into trees and lampposts etc. The'll have them for 18 months maybe 2 years before they grow out of them.
Kids won’t appreciate a ‘good’ bike over a normal one
IME kids notice a lot more than we might think. Ours definitely appreciate "good" bikes and I wish I'd had something similar when I was a kid instead of the ridiculously heavy hand-me-downs that were way too big. Both our daughters ride a lot better than I did at their age and it's not even expensive in the end because "good" bikes hold their value and go the distance. So it was a no-brainer for me, but each to their own.
Ooooo, Moshi, I’m south London but can pay postage? Could you pm some photos?
I'm in Buckingham, so a bit of a trek for you. Ideally I would prefer not to bother with postage because of the risk of damage, but might consider it if it doesn't sell locally. I've noticed they usually go for around £175-200 on ebay in good condition.
Fair enough
Kids won’t appreciate a ‘good’ bike over a normal one
Piffle.
[img] 
[/img]
A kid thoroughly enjoying a good bike.
[img]
[/img]
And another.
A light bike and great brakes that work for small/weaker hands are important.
Green runs in Morzine no probs for this Belter 👍
Kids won’t appreciate a ‘good’ bike over a normal one…
Mini started on a Hot Walk balance bike which he loved, light and easy to manoeuvre. He moved on to a BSO and quickly went off cycling, his look on it varied between terror and unimpressed. I replaced it with the Cosmos and within 5 minutes he was back in love with cycling, confident and happy to ride off kerbs and lean it over to turn etc.
A light bike and great brakes that work for small/weaker hands are important.
That was my experience too. I remember our girls struggled a little bit with the standard rim brakes on the Belter 16 on long steep descents. The Belter 20 has cable disc brakes and they are much better. Our eldest is now on a 24" bike with proper Magura hydraulic discs and loves them.
That Hope modified Belter is awesome! I presume that's a 20" right?
No it’s a Belter 16”
It’s proud rider is just turned 4 in the pic above 👍
No it’s a Belter 16”
It’s proud rider is just turned 4 in the pic above 👍
Brilliant! I can imagine the disc brakes were a huge benefit in that terrain.
fantastic neal! my youngest (2 last weekend) is the physical one picking it up fast, my eldest at 4 in the next week is now confident on the rothan but not at your littleones level....confident not good!
Our eldest daughter struggles with confidence. Always afraid of crashing, even though she rarely does. Our youngest is more of a little ripper and hasn't been put off at all by the odd tumble!
But when I compare them to other girls of the same age at school, they are far better riders than most. I put that down to starting then off on balance bikes and then decent quality lightweight pedal bikes at an early age. If I went back with hindsight I would do exactly the same again. Of course the keenest kids will make good progress on any bike, but you can certainly make it harder work for them! I suspect our eldest would have given up riding by now on poor quality heavy "toysRus" bikes. Our youngest might well have persevered regardless. They are all different.
thread revival for an update and more advice please! I am admitting, I made a mistake, please help me correct it.
After being 2nd highest bidder on about 8 early rider belter 16s I decide to buy new, found it at about £280 IIRC and bought new. yay. With my eldest girl having outgrown the islabike rothan, I thought the 16" would be fine if a big step up. Hmmm. We gave it to her as an early christmas present a fortnight ago and have had her out on it 4 or 5 times (who knew? it seems Santa delivers early to good girls as sometimes he just can't fit EVERY present in is sleight on Christmas night, so big ones like bikes sometimes come early!). first time I had the pedals on and it didn't go well so I took them off and thought let her get used to its size as a balance bike for a couple of rides then refit. So after 3 or 4 more rides now its clear there is a problem, She has gone from wanting to go riding and flowing along, zig zagging and swooping around on the isla, to having paddies and strops 'I DON'T want to ride!' 'I DON'T LIKE my new bike!' and so on. It is I'm afraid, just too big. despite being a tall 4 years and 3 months it is too big. She fits over it fine, I've got the seat up almost 2 inches from its lowest position and she can stand over it well but she is too stretched and seems to be struggling to steer and so on, struggling to balance and has just lost her confidence completely!!!
Options I've considered to resolve this:
1. Back to the rothan for bit....No. its too small now and gives the impression of giving in (She has a tendency to give up if things are hard ....I really don't want to feed that!)
2. wait til she grows a bit. NO. I can't punishes the younger one and not ride, and would fear the both going backwards. besides, its just mean.
3. Adjust the bike to reduce the reach? A shorter stem? difficult, the steerer tube is not normal size i assume. plus it'll be costly. Maybe roll the risers backwards to reduce the reach half inch but ... bike probably still too long for now.
4. Bite the bullet and buy a 14". The favorite option. Although not planned I had already been thinking I'd need to get one next summer as the youngest, now 2 and 3 months, is doing very well indeed on her isla and will want to be on a pedal bike like big sis by mid summer or sooner, long long before she would fit the 16". So If i get one now, hopefully the eldest will be bigger and okay to move up to the 16" in 6-7 months and the youngest can have the 14". (Who knew? Santa made a mistake! he delivered the wrong bike and its been too big! he came back and swapped it!)
So...before I spend another £276 pus postage (from discount bikes, that german online store)....have I missed any option that would make the 16" work well now?
Have you tried a 14" cnoc? It's probably far to small if she is tall.
Can you make the belter special for her? They do look cool to us, but lack the bright colours kids love.
We put red pedals & grips on ours (as red was favourite at the time). Stickers help too. There is also to ongoing desire for a basket to put dolly in, which will make it like her friends bikes.
I can't picture how long the stem is, but it's already quite short iirc.
Are the brakes set up really easy to pull? Also, if the belt is tight, they are really hard to pedal. Get it on the workstand, check it over & make it perfect for a little person with really little hands& legs.
We found the switch to pedals took time & their was alot of back & forward to the balance bike before it was forgotten about. Just be patient, if she wants to ride the rothan, it's better than not riding. If it's too small, see if you can find a cheap early rider trail 14+. It won't fit for long though.
Kids learn from other kids. Make sure she has the chance to play & ride with a role model.
Yep I've set the brakes and tensioned the belt. I also adorned the bike with butterfly and flower decals, it looks good. It is just a bit big. The stem is fairly short, not measured but is guess at 40-50mm.
Hmmm
