[Closed] First Aid kit contents suitable for major claret leakage..

Duct tape can do it all....

crikey - Member
Duct tape can do it all....

wouldn't fancy getting it off if directly applied to a wound

Hence my handkerchief recommendation; and it can also be used to blow your nose, clean your specs and, most importantly, offer to young ladies when they become over emotional at the beauty of your something or other...

You need to remember that it's called FIRST aid. You're not going to be reducing dislocations and winning prizes for needlework. It's all about enabling a scoop and run approach to get the casualty in a safe situation. Duct tape is all you need.

Compound fracture - tape it to the other leg.
Dislocated shoulder or fractured collar bone - tape it to the body.
Blood pissing everywhere - stick an item of clothing over the bleed and tape it down to provide compression.

sbz -

compound fracture - fine, totally agree, but if it's a compound fracture you're going to want to dress the wound as well.
shoulder/collar bone - would take a sh*tload of tape, wouldn't stick well in the wet and would give p*ss-poor support, thus defeating the object of immobilising it, which is to allow the casualty to walk out of the situation. If you're just calling an ambulance, might as well not bother, casualty will naturally hold it in the most "comfortable" position.
Blood pissing - well sure, but are you volunteering to hand-over your spendy Fox bike jersey? A £1 dressing would be better...

Oh, and re. space-blankets - of zero use in wet conditions. They (slightly) reduce heat-loss by radiation, but make no difference to heat-loss by convection. And have you ever tried opening one out even indoors? Imagine trying it outside in the wind...

Improvising is all well and good, but lets not delude ourselves that it's somehow better than using the proper kit.

I carry a full kit for guiding.
Riding with mates, well most of the time it's already in the pack and it weighs so little and takes up so little space that I usually leave it there.
Riding locally on my own, I often go out with no pack at all.

Don't see the benefit of sterile bandages dressing when riding. your cut/graze/wound is not going to be sterile (dirty ground) and the dressing is going to come off as soon as you get back home.

How are people carrying duct tape in a camelbak? I don't have room for a massive roll. Any clever solutions?

Superficial - wrap 3m or so of it round your pump.

Funny how all the medics seem to carry bugger all / next to nothing..

vs The manual readers who seem prepared for a tour in Helmand??

Sounds like a good plan Stevo.

I know people don't think much of survival blankets, but having helped an injured cyclist who was stuck near Hope cross on a cool (ish) day, I reckon the cold/exposure is the biggest risk to life. The rider in question who was unable to move became very cold quite quickly. It was just a case of waiting for the mountain rescue to extract them, and there's not actually an awful lot that even the most experienced paramedics / doctors can do until help arrives. I suspect keeping people warm is one of the most important things.

As for minor cuts / scrapes, you don't have to be a doctor for those sorts of things.

I'm amazed nobody carries a large portion of MTFU...

stevomcd - if blood was pissing everywhere I'd use whatever I had to stop it doing so. I'd be very surprised if anyone else would do differently.

For those who say Sanitary Towels are not sterile... well neither is a sterile dressing as soon as you open it on the trail! The point is that they are arguably more compact than a similar dressing, specifically designed to soak up bodily fluids, perfect for dressing and applying pressure, easy to come by and cost effective.

A first aid kit does not need to contain the most expensive upto date and most sterile equipment you find in a hospital. It's first aid. The purpose of it is to make sure that the injured person is made as comfortable as possible and prevent (as much as possible) any deterioration before they can be evacuated. The most important things to do are maintain airway and circulation (mask in case of mouth to mouth) and slow down/stop any major blood loss (sanitary towels or your favourite dressing with tape, innertube, bandage or whatever you have to hold it and apply pressure to the wound) If the accident is serious enough that you are thinking about this stuff you are essentially concentrating on keeping the person alive while waiting for transport to hospital.

If it's serious do not move anybody unless there is a risk to their life where they are or they have stopped breathing and you need to resuscitate.

The number of times I've seen people be moved before any assessment after pretty severe head trauma is astounding. Concussed people will nearly always tell you that they are fine and don't need to go to hospital... They need to go to hospital!

😯 Brilliant! Pros and cons of various haemostatic agents, combat tourniquets, vs tampons and gaffs tape. Only on STW. Love it.

(if you really need kit that has been specifically designed for catastrophic haemorrhages and traumatic amputations, I suggest you may want to chose a different spot for your rides... Maybe somewhere without snipers and IEDs!) Blimey.

Got to support the comment on survival blankets - its a survival bag you need, either a metallic one, or a nice simple bright orange plastic one. Far more effective at keeping a caualty dry and warm(er) and take up hardly any more space.

Funny how all the medics seem to carry bugger all / next to nothing..

vs The manual readers who seem prepared for a tour in Helmand??

If I was a trained and qualified paramedic, I might well be confident enough in my abilities to improvise with whatever happened to be in my/other people's pack at the time. However, I'm not - I'm a youth worker with a basic Rec2 First Aid certificate to validate my Trail Leader award. On one of our most recent rides, I had a kid who had a tumble and ended up with multiple superficial, but spectacular looking cuts and grazing. I had to sort him out, and deal with the rest of the group, and the calming power of pulling a decent sized first aid kit out of your bag, complete with surgical gloves "ready to go" when you open it is hard to over-estimate. It may well not be necessary, but it's a useful piece of 'showmanship' that communicates to a group of slightly freaked out kids that [i]"it's going to be okay, because I know what I'm doing, and I have the right kit"[/i]. At this time of the year, I tend to supplement my first aid kit with a thermal wrap (bivvy bag slit open with a space blanket taped to the inside) - again because it was suggested to me by the paramedic who ran the first aid course, so I'm doing what I was told by the people with more competence and experience than me.

When I'm out on my own, or with a mate, I have a little Alpkit pouch that has some Mepore and some tape, a couple of plasters and some Compeed (comes with me hillwalking as well.)

My mate tutted like skippy when I went back for my kit at Afan. Changed his opinion when his 12yr old lad went over the bars and mashed his arm on a big rock and I could patch him up enough.

Or the little lad who landed badly on jumps and cut a big gash in his chin. His Dad thought emergency medical treatement was to immediately phone Mum and tell her he had just tried to kill Johnny but not to worry!

MTFU - is that like snake oil then? FFS

Interesting thread... it is amazing how peoples opinions differ.
I'm not a medic, but I do know a little about first aid, and quite a lot about survival.
I have a pencil case in my riding pack which has a few plasters, alcohol wipes, roll of micropore, a few painkillers and other odds'n'ends, the thought behind this is it is nice to be able to patch up a cut/graze so you can complete your ride without bleeding everywhere.

If things got more serious i'd have no worries about using a shirt/jacket/dirty rag taped over a big bleed to try and stem the flow. if the injury is going to need a visit to hospital sterility of dressings/infection is the last of your worries at this point - the hospital will clean any wound properly, and probably give you precautionary antibiotics to kill any infection.

It is easy to get caught up with the idea that you need to drag a M*A*S*H hospital around with you, but unless you are in really remote terrain it is a bit overkill.

2 years ago I did a 4x4 trek accoss the Moroccan Sahara with a couple of mates, one of them caught his wedding ring on a bolt whilst jumping off his roofrack - result was wedding ring burried in his almost severed finger, and a 6 hour off-road drive to the nearest medical centre.
I cut the ring off with a dirty hacksaw, then bound his hand up with stuff from our (well stocked) first aid kit, when we got to the hospital the doctors told us if we'd not cut the ring off when we did he'd have lost the finger..
Happy outcomes from emergency situations depend more on what you do, than the gear you have to do it...

be interested to know who here actually is a qualified medic or army/armed forces medic.?

But first aid wise most of the typical gear will surfice, but the main things you will need are
tape(surgical which doesnt react to skin as duck tape can)
Dressings, various sizes(and no, not a chest one, if you needing one you really shouldnt be trying to DIY yourself tbh lol)

Then maybe some saline solution to clean the wound, though water out of camel bak will surfice.

that is pretty much it.

Bandages are ok, but medically people agree thatyou should not to attempt to move body limbs as it causes more pain and problems, so keep casualty comfortable is the best.

Bar this training is the best kit you have, so get on a lifesaving course, more people need to know how to do CPR and basic first aid than ever before.

Just shown this thread to Mrs FD who is an Orthopaedic/Trauma surgeon with Advanced Trauma Life Support training. She laughed at what most of you are carrying around, and nodded at what those with medical knowledge are suggesting, oh plus a mobile phone.

Drugs - I always carry emergency antihistemine, 'buprofen and co-codamol. Only 'cos they wont let me carry morphine vials

Do the right course and go far enough away from civilisation and you can administer Tramadol.

You need to remember that it's called FIRST aid. You're not going to be reducing dislocations and winning prizes for needlework.

The advanced version of the course I did covers stitching and the use of cannula (possibly) the basic version did dislocation reduction. This was in 2007 though. I need to go and do a refresher.

blablablacksheep - the thread is as follows - those with the skills at a professional level = duct tape, those without those skills = carrying the hospital stores round with them.

The most recent course I did involved stitching and canula stuff, the more basic version involved reducing dislocations and returning fractures to their anatomical position. Would I do any of that stuff in real life with my current knowledge? Not unless their life depended on it.

You'd have to be VERY brave to try and put a shoulder back in 'in the field'. Without an xray there's no way of knowing that there isn't an associated fracture, and you could make the situation much worse by pulling it. Perhaps if you're in the middle of the arctic and help can't come for 24 hours, doing nothing is potentially dangerous in terms of exposure etc, it's hard to imagine that scenario in the UK though. Otherwise just let mountain rescue extract and hospital doctors do their thing. A little bit of training can often be a bad thing.

I'm interested as to whether people think camelbak water is good for cleaning out (proper) wounds - E.g. if there's an open fracture or something. I suspect it's a case of balancing risk of infection from the mud vs risk from mouth-type bacteria. I guess if the wound is full of manure you're want to do something - Otherwise I'd probably just cover it up and let them sort it out in hospital.

Any thoughts?

How are people carrying duct tape in a camelbak?

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Just shown this thread to Mrs FD who is an Orthopaedic/Trauma surgeon with Advanced Trauma Life Support training. She laughed at what most of you are carrying around, and nodded at what those with medical knowledge are suggesting

If she's happy to come and back that up in front of "InjuryLawyers4U", great, otherwise I stand by my earlier comments. I'm carrying what I was advised to carry by the paramedics who taught my REC2 first aid course. That way, if it all goes tits up in a bad way, my ass (and that of my employer) is covered on at least one front.

If Mrs FD has a sense of humour, you might pass on my niece's comment (she's in paediatrics) to the effect that [i]"why would you listen to someone who practices medicine with a hammer and chisel"[/i] - she was grinning when she said it mind 😀

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Anyone fancy sticking that kind of joint back together after a wee first aid course?

Anyone fancy sticking that kind of joint back together after a wee first aid course?

Not in that state!

SBZ - "those with the skills on a professional level". I work as an event first aider for a commercial company, and tend to end up being on/helping teach four or five courses a year. Which category do you put me in?

It's an "each to their own" situation, really. I've had a bunch of trips whet I've needed nowt, then two weeks ago I ended up steri-stripping a cut to someone's forehead at the get in of a river trip when they got whacked in the bonce with a paddle while warming up. Not a major emergency, but head injuries bleed like a git and it was freaking her out. Couple of strips, ambulance dressing and Buff over it, helmet on and off we go. Like someone else said, the calming effect of someone having kit and the knowledge to use it can be pretty effective.

Oh, and no, I wouldn't fancy relocating a shoulder. We don't even relocate fingers. That way madness (and possibly litigation) lies. Have had training to do it on seriously remote expeditions, but bloody hope I never have to...

[i]and possibly litigation[/i]
Exactly!

Again I'm reduced to boggling at the idea that anyone would attempt any kind of dislocation reduction while out on a trail...

If you're happy to recognise the difference between a dislocated hip and a fractured neck of femur through a pair of baggy shorts, or the difference between a high humeral fracture, or fracture-dislocation compared to a dislocated shoulder you are wasted...

[b]The Golden Rule: If you can't fix it with duct tape, get some help.[/b]

I wouldn't put that shoulder back.... it's in joint

Litigation though, Crikey, only applies if you attempt something [i]for which you have not been trained [/i]. The "Good Samaritan" law (can't remember the proper name) upholds that - so if I bandage a serious head wound (however badly!) And the person subsequently bleeds to death, i'd feel bad but could not be sued because it's in my training. If I attempt an emergency tracheotomy because I saw it on the telly once, I'd be off down the proverbial in my barbed wire kayak.

(And no, I don't think I could recognise most of those things explicitly. Mostly it's the basic principles of first aid - keep 'em breathing, stop 'em bleeding and if it's serious enough to warrant it, get the big taxi with the blue lights on)

True, but the injurious consequences of an attempted reduction of a dislocated shoulder should mean no-one should be attempting it outside a hospital setting, especially not in mainland UK, when the ambulance is presumably on its way.

The duct tape rule...

Obviously if you have wider responsibilities / are dealing with kids / are going out into the wilds then a different take on things is not unreasonable.

however for most of us riding with friends not far from civilisation then there really is little that a first aid kit makes a significant difference. Minor injuries carry on, major injuries call in the experts / self evacuate.

In between that is a small amount of injuries where having the kit and the skills to use it could make a difference between continuing the ride and not or significantly alter outcomes/ comfort for the more serious injury.

Significant gravel rash say - can be much more comfortable under the right sort of dressing or being able to steristrip a cut up. Having the kit might mean you could carry on rather than cut the ride short. Once or twice I have done this sort of thing. However I don't often carry a first aid kit although when I do its fairly comprehensive.

The only time I regret not having the kit is when a mate broke his shoulder - and then only because I could have offered him some of the very strong painkillers I have in it when we were on the hours drive back to Edinburgh with him.

It is interesting that those with skills in the medical world are the ones who don't carry much first aid kit.

Crikey - Agree with you completely on that! We'd done it in training for a multi-day remote kayaking trip abroad, where not only was there no closer medical support, there was naff-all chance of medical extraction. Shoulder dislocation is quite common in kayaking, so it was an assumed risk. Still wouldn't fancy doing it for real, though!

Reducing shoulders is quite hard work; I used to do it when I worked in theatre, under direct supervision of which ever consultant Orthopod was on call.

If it's that hard on sedated patients, I suspect it will be more so on awake, in pain, well muscled, kayakers...

Takes a very long time, a helmet full of rocks and a roll of gaffer tape. Very little physical effort apart from restraining the pillock who dislocated their shoulder. Basically, slow application of traction. As I say, I wouldn't particularly want to do it, and I'd rather leave it to someone more qualified, but should push come to "alright you idiot, lie here and hold on while I tape this to your bad arm", i'd do it if I absolutely had to.

Just to add, if you do get head injuries it is a good idea to get some proper medical attention as im sure many who are professionals will agree.

By this i mean if you hit head hard enough to warrent DIY first aid, it worth getting it checked out....id rather smash my head and spend time cycling into A&E rather than spending time attaching a bandage and taking some drugs to null the pain of my braining swelling inside my skull 🙄

But seriously if we talking about taking all these complex medical devices and silly "self clotting agents" you really need to consider this...

[b]Should you really be riding the way you are if you not taking part in a special event which has the proper medical care on standby[/b]

Pyro, I would imagine that in Kayaking you're far more likely to get a dislocation [i]without[/i] a fracture than you are compared with an impact sport like mountain biking, horse riding, motorcycles etc. On that basis it might be less unreasonable to put it back in whilst out on the river (particularly if you're miles from civilisation). It's a bit of a different risk/benefit equation when compared to mountain biking anyway.

Interesting choice from Google ads - I'm getting sports bras to help me post augmentation surgery 😯

In between that is a small amount of injuries where having the kit and the skills to use it could make a difference between continuing the ride and not or significantly alter outcomes/ comfort for the more serious injury.

This is the major reason I carry a first aid kit. Bandages, a couple of wound pads, tape and scissors, some melonin and some 'spray plaster'

Mostly the things that get used to keep the ride going are the bandages - invariably on knees and elbows where movement occurs, and the the spray plaster - good for a temporary seal on flexible areas - again, mostly knees and elbows.

I had cause for a friend to use one of the bandages on my noggin the other month, but that was purely to stop the bleeding while we got off the hill and went to hospital.

If you are gonna carry a splint, then these are fab;

http://www.sammedical.com/sam_splint.html

They make a nice seat when you don't want to get a wet arse too.

It you have a serious bleed and need compression then an Israeli bandage is very effective;

I use these at work fairly regularly and carry them occasionally when riding, depending on circumstances.
I usually just have assorted plasters, tape and a small dressing.