[Closed] Fine for riding without lights on the road/in the park

I see helmets as best done by personal choice

I see riding without lights as a huge menace that should is against thelaw and should be against the law. No idea about puinshment level but its not on

Of you are hit without lights its not cost free for the person that hits you. Fixing you is not cist free

I'd not heard of this being introduced.

It's a legal requirement of riding on the road after dark.

I feel it wouldn't hurt to try and raise helmet wearing numbers too.

Well they could mention helmets, but they certainly shouldn't/can't try to enforce them.
Personally I think they'd be better sticking to lights than hassling people who are riding legally.

It's the law to use lights, so why not?

[i] I'd not heard of this being introduced[/i]

they've been doing this in Brighton for a few years, tends to coincide with the clocks changing and the students coming back.

As a driver and a cyclist I only hope that they do it more and that the fines get larger.

they do it in Oxford timed to coincide with clock changes. They will rescind the ticket if the 'offender' produces a receipt for a set of bike lights which seems eminently sensible.

Spotted a chap in a hi-viz windbreaker sans chapeau; teh ironing!

That's totally the right way round. Would you rather not be knocked off, or be knocked off and have your head hurt slightly less?

I saw this. At the same time as usual a number of riders also chose to ignore the red lights along that stretch. I don't mind having to catch up with them again, infact I love it but waiting at the lights while they sail by you know that the drivers are having their prejudices reinforced. ie cyclists shouldn't be on the road.

having nearly hit a cyclist on the way to work in the dark this morning, who was dressed in dark clothes, with no lights/reflectors at all and cycling down a busy road. I'd say it was a good idea.

Ned, the answer is neither; be visible and wear a lid. It tickled me because he half cares, like the people who wear helmets backwards or halfway down the back of their head.

I've been knocked off while with lights and helmet and nearly squashed, raising more vulnerable rider's safety is a plus but I wasn't sure about penalising people.

As someone learning to drive I also see how important it is to make riders visible, the blind spots are uncomfortably large!

I commute with Hi-viz clothing and monster lights but don't wear a helmet.

EDIT: In Cambridge, where about 30% of the population commute by bike (highest in country), probably only 5% wear helmets. Rather shockingly only about 15% have any lights.....

[i]It's the law to use lights, so why not?

[/i]

Its certainly a 'rule'

60
At night your cycle MUST have white front and red rear lights lit. It MUST also be fitted with a red rear reflector (and amber pedal reflectors, if manufactured after 1/10/85). White front reflectors and spoke reflectors will also help you to be seen. Flashing lights are permitted but it is recommended that cyclists who are riding in areas without street lighting use a steady front lamp.
Law RVLR regs 13, 18 & 24

But since the rule before is:

[i]59
Clothing. You should wear

a cycle helmet which conforms to current regulations, is the correct size and securely fastened
appropriate clothes for cycling. Avoid clothes which may get tangled in the chain, or in a wheel or may obscure your lights
light-coloured or fluorescent clothing which helps other road users to see you in daylight and poor light
reflective clothing and/or accessories (belt, arm or ankle bands) in the dark.
[/i]

Not sure what the 'law' is, but CTC refer to this:

[i]Home : Article Library :
Cycle Lighting
Cycle lighting has been a complicated issue for a long time. Below you will find an article by Richard Harrison published in December 2003. Some technical aspects of this article were superseded by revision of the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations in 2005, so this article should be read in conjunction with the following information:

•It is now legal to have a flashing light on a bike, provided it is an appropriate colour and flashes between 60 and 240 times per minute.
•It is even possible for a flashing light to be the “approved” front or rear light, rather than just an additional light.
•Any kind of light source can be used in a lamp, including LEDs of course.
•Lights are now permitted to move, if attached to wheels or pedals.
These changes should make it much easier for a cyclist to equip him- or herself with lights that are both functional and legal. Very few lamp manufacturers however, have availed themselves of the opportunities provided in 2005, to obtain British approval for LED and flashing lamps.
Without approval, a lamp is useful merely as an optional lamp – in addition to the cyclist’s approved front or rear lamp. Unfortunately there are now very few British approved lamps on the market. It can be hard to find even one in a shop, so the majority of cyclists (probably including cycling lawyers) continue to ride illegally after dark.

For more information on the technical details of cycle lighting regulations, including the provision for equivalent British approval of lamps approved by other EC countries – and its limitations – see this CTC website page. Cycle lighting has been a complicated issue for a long time. Below you will find an article by Richard Harrison published in December 2003. The law mentioned in this article may be superceded by new regulations. as the following report from the CTC indicates.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The law of bicycle lighting
Richard Harrison addresses matters of concern to the urban cyclist in winter.

A similar paper to this appeared in New Law Journal dated 19 December 2003.

•why many lawyers may be breaking the law
•how the law fails to keep up with technological advances
•proposals for reform
Many lawyers, certainly in central London, cycle to their offices, chambers and courtrooms. These include eminent members of the senior judiciary, at least one of whom has been witnessed shooting a red traffic light.

Illegal lawyers
But none of us can cast the first stone. In these dark winter mornings and nights, many of us are breaking the law. If our lights are the modern, flashing variety and we select their flashing mode, we are infringing the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (S.I. 1989 No 1796) (“the Regulations”).

Under the heading “Lamps to show a steady light”, the Regulations state that: “…no vehicle shall be fitted with a lamp which automatically emits a flashing light”. The vast majority of experienced cyclists will tell you that being seen at night by other road users is something of a priority. You do not want a vehicle to ram you from behind and you do not want anyone moving out in front of you if you can possibly avoid it. In the city, bicycle lighting is not about seeing but about being seen. It is about conspicuity, not about illumination.

On one analysis, you can never have enough lighting. There are of course practical limits but most sensible cyclists buy the best they can afford and set up a system which suits them. The most effective lights are light emitting diodes (“LEDs”) and, in my experience both in a car and in the saddle, their most conspicuous manifestation is their flashing mode.

A sample system
I use two LED’s at the front: a cylindrical white flashing spotlight to my right and a flat yellow light to my left. At the rear, I use a broad red fixed light attached to the luggage rack and a flashing red LED. My mudguards have fluorescent plastic strips affixed to my mudguard and helmet. There are amber reflectors on my pedals, white ones on my front wheels, a red reflector on the seat post and a white reflector on the handle bar. My side panniers have fluorescent strips and I also tend to wear a yellow and silver Sam Browne belt. But what makes me feel most safe and secure are my flashing LEDs. Observation suggests that many other cyclists also gain comfort from flashing.

What are the legal requirements?
According to the Regulations:

You need a front lamp. It should be on the centre-line or off side of the vehicle and aligned to and visible from the front. It should be not more than 1500 mm above the ground. It should be white (or yellow if it is incorporated in a headlamp which is capable of emitting only a yellow light). It should be marked with a British Standard Mark namely BS 6102/3 (or its equivalent).

You need a rear lamp which should also be on the centre-line or off side of the vehicle aligned to and visible from the rear. It should also be not more than 1500 mm and not less than 350mm above the ground. It should have an angle of visibility 80O to the left and to the right and it should be red. It should be marked either with the British Standards Institution 3648:1963 or “BS 6102/3”.

You also need a rear reflector complying with the appropriate British Standard Mark between 350mm and 900 mm from the ground. New bikes will invariably be fitted with one: you wouldn’t take it off but it is unlikely to be your main line of defence.

Finally, you need two amber reflectors on each pedal complying with BS6102/2. Once again, you would not necessarily remove these from your pedal. They appear to be the least visible or useful of all lighting devices but if one breaks, as they invariably do, given their position, you should replace it in order to remain within the law.

In addition to the illegality of flashing lights, there are a number of other relevant restrictions:

There is a prohibition on lights which move. So you cannot attach a light (other than a reflector) to pedals or wheels.

No lamp should be used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to any persons using the road. Views will of course differ but the attentions of an enthusiastic policeman may be avoided if the angle of an intense front light is dipped slightly.

The other surprising technicality is that modern LED lights arguably do not comply with the relevant British Standard. The standard has been amended to cover LED lights but because of the way the standard is referred to in the Regulations, they arguably remain illegal. To comply strictly with the law, you must use an old fashioned, less efficient filament bulb as your main light and the powerful, highly visible LED light as a somewhat artificial “back-up”.

[/i]

Using lights is the law and should be enforced.

Using a helmet is personal choice and should be kept that way.

Maybe rather than just fining the lightless they could also supply them with lights, "You've been riding without a light, thats a £30 on the spot fine and here have a set of lights so it doesn't happen again."

Maybe rather than just fining the lightless they could also supply them with lights, "You've been riding without a light, thats a £30 on the spot fine and here have a set of lights so it doesn't happen again."

They did this in Cambridge, offenders got a choice, buy some lights and present the receipt at the Police Station within 48 hours or get a £30 fine.

At night your cycle [b]MUST[/b] have white front and red rear lights lit.

You [b]should [/b]wear a cycle helmet which conforms to current regulations

big difference.

I'll admit to living in brighton and cycling round being pretty lax when it came to lights, i had two tiny things, which sometimes got forgotten. and it was never a problem because the roads are so well lit.

First ride back from the pub when i moved, was a bit of a shock: 3 miles of a country road, with nothing more than a single lumen!

I would laugh at a council person who tried to fine me. Aside from that - wot they sed ^^^^^

"You've been riding without a light, thats a £30 on the spot fine and here have a set of lights so it doesn't happen again."

that or the "fine or provide receipt" I'd welcome more schemes like this, riding around without lights in the pitch black is more than a little silly. Leave the helmet stuff out tho.

Lights are a legal requirement, aren't they? a helmet isn't; you can only be fined for breaking the rules...

Lights reduce the likelyhood of an accident occuring, a helmet's function is to reduce the consequences if an accident occurs, you can't really bleat about someone lacking the 2nd line of defence if they've not bothered with the first...

TBH this is a pretty obvious bit of light trolling OP, But now we are Sans TJ I'm not sure this one will run as far as previously... Sorry.

How would you feel if some car drivers chose not use lights at night?

Point being, riding without lights is not on, it's not fair to other road users, and makes cyclists look irresponsible, because it is irresponsible.

I think the cycle industry can do something here...
I give away a nice helmet with every local bike sale, so they have no excuse, don't need to weigh up f they will buy one or not.
Maybe I should give lights away instead.

Too much cycle clothing is black.
My top end altura jacket has zero reflective bits on it !!!
I would like to see some attractive and styled hi viz (or is cool hi viz impossible?)

My top end altura jacket has zero reflective bits on it !!!

My slightly ancient Altura is a subtle road grey, but does have some nice reflective piping on it that lights me up like tron when headlights shine on it.

I would like to see some attractive and styled hi viz (or is cool hi viz impossible?)

Did you see this bad boy reviewed on Teh Grauniad Biek Bolg?

[img] [/img]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2012/oct/24/cycling-extreme-high-vis

In the words of the reviewer, Peter Walker, "An eye-melting yellow/lime shade which somehow transcends day-glo to approach outright luminescence, it is possibly visible from space. If that's not enough it's covered in reflective trim."

Neither attractive, nor styled, in my opinion. But certainly seems visible!

I think the indictaor arms are the crowning glory on that jacket, tbh.

When I was working for The Bike Chain in Edinburgh, we'd carry a cheap set of lights with us and hand them out to unlit commuters. You'd be surprised how many folk just didn't want them.

Riding without lights really boils my piss, both as a cyclist and a driver.

Its about the most inconsiderate thing you can do on a bike and probably the most dangerous.

Its not even as if lights are expensive or hard to buy.
[url= http://www.tesco.com/direct/activequipment-mini-silicon-light-set/257-7596.prd?pageLevel=&skuId=257-7596 ]Tesco Lights[/url]

6 quid from Tesco!

So yes by all means fine cyclist who don't use lights, £30 plus the cost of a set of lights.

You'd be surprised how many folk just didn't want them.

WTF? What reasoning did they offer?

6 quid from Tesco!

I met an old guy bimbling towards me the other night with his wife in tow.
Both were on BSOs and had tiny single lumen lights that were barely visibile. I have no idea how they could see where they were going, given that it was pitch black and we were on a country path through the woods.

Bloke pulls to a halt in front of me:
[i]"Blimey, that's some light you've got there."[/i] (a 2004 era Lumicycle Halide) [i]"We thought it was a searchlight coming up the path"[/i] (I actually dipped it down when I saw them approaching)

He then asks a couple of questions about it. Batteries, runtime etc and I answer them, patiently waiting for the inevitable...

[i]"How much is that then..?"[/i]

Followed by the incredulous spluttering noise of a man who has just had his value system seriously challenged. 😀

[i]"I... I think we'll stick with these"[/i] he said, squinting uselessly into the darkness.

Obviously big bright lights aren't for everyone, but I did silently wonder if he has ever considered how much his car headlights cost?

footflaps - Member
In Cambridge, where about 30% of the population commute by bike (highest in country), probably only 5% wear helmets. Rather shockingly only about 15% have any lights.....

Yup, scary how many ninjas there are without lights at this time of the year, they really don't do themselves any favours. When a decent set of LEDs is so cheap there's no excuse. The fine or receipt option sounds eminently sensible, though I can't say I've ever seen anyone handing out tickets (also in Cambridge).

out of interest how do these cyclist fines work practically?

I mean if they're council employees not rozzers so can't they compell you to provide some form of ID can they?

Do they just ask for name/address and rely on the honesty of the unlit cyclist?

or do they have a police wingman?

I applaud the effort to improve cycling safety, just not clear on how effective it really is...

I'm not intending to troll but they are connected issues, fines or receipt and the chance to buy are a much better option than plain fining. I think more mountaineering stuff should have reflective details, some does but not enough.

[quote=GrahamS ]> You'd be surprised how many folk just didn't want them.
WTF? What reasoning did they offer?
(a) "Too much hassle"
(b) "They'll just get stolen" ("Yes, but you can remove them") - See (a)
(c) "But then I'll have to buy batteries"

Some folk just don't seem to value their life highly enough.

out of interest how do these cyclist fines work practically?

Once or twice a year the Police camp out on busy cycle roads, eg Mill Road in Cambridge, and nab everyone with out lights. Pretty much a token gesture, I'd be keen to see them really clamp down on it.

Been doing it for years in Cambridge - set up a load of police in one place in the middle of town, and hand out £20 quid fines to anyone who passes without a light. Loads of people got them when I was there.

Some folk just don't seem to value their life highly enough.

It seems not 😕 I'd love to sit people like that in a car on a wet dark night and show them just how completely invisible they are.

Some folk just don't seem to value their life highly enough.

I think it's slightly different. More to do with lack of ability to assess risk or even understand that assessing risk is important for survival.

Life is generally very safe these days in the UK - so much has been done to protect us from danger/our own lack of skill (airbags and ABS pretty much standard, non-rewireable plugs etc) that unless you do risky activities (climbing, hillwalking, cycling, motorbike, building work, window cleaning etc) many people fail to realise that risk assessment is a skill they they need but lack.

Risk is being mitigated by product design rather than personal judgement essentially

The number of people wandering around with headphones round dark streets in South East London, or wandering into the road without looking, and all the RLJers... suggests to me they don't even realise they need to assess risk before they do something...

Oh and some people are simply thick!

how many of us are still breaking the law by not having pedal reflectors and rear red reflectors then?

how many of us are still breaking the law by not having pedal reflectors and rear red reflectors then?

Hear Hear! (Here Here! ?)

I don't listen to anyone telling me I must use lights if they don't have pedal reflectors!

Hypocrites!

As br mentioned in the tl;dr; post above - it's pretty unlikely that your lights are marked as conforming to BS6102/3 so they are technically illegal anyway (even though they probably vastly exceed that standard).

And I've never seen British Statndard pedal reflectors that work with clipless pedals and don't just fly off after the first pothole.

Basically the law is an ass.

It's not about obeying the law though - it is about staying safe.

I confess to sinning on the reflectors part of the deal.

I do use lights, however, and there's reflecty bits on my waterproof, camelbak, shoes and gloves so I'm doing my best.

Lights and no helmet isn't ironic. The bloke I saw the other day whose day-glo safety vest was covering up his rear light - that's ironic.

I invariably end up riding without lights once or twice a year after batteries die or I forget to put them in my bag. I'd like to see more new bikes specced with modern hub dynamos, when was the last time you saw one in a bike shop? It's not going to happen in the UK though, because bikes have to be as light as possible lest magazine reviewers tell you not to buy them.

how many of us are still breaking the law by not having pedal reflectors

and rear red reflectors then?

Was going to say I hope the groups doing the fine sessions use some common sense ie a bike festooned with lights that don't conform to british standard wouldn't get a fine would it?

I'd like to see more new bikes specced with modern hub dynamos

Those £6 tesco jobs any good?
Cateye front and rear set £13 in LBS the other day, bargain!

£30 plus the cost of a set of lights.

The cost of an Exposure Flash and Flare set would drive the point home 👿

my commute shoes have (silver) reflective patches and I've taken to using those fetching snap on ankle "bracelets"

Yeah I have patches like that on my shoes. Got some of those snap-on bracelets free from the garage but I admit they are wrapped around my top tub instead.

None of that "counts" legally though - no pedal reflectors = illegal. 🙁

Was going to say I hope the groups doing the fine sessions use some common sense ie a bike festooned with lights that don't conform to british standard wouldn't get a fine would it?

I would imagine so. But if you are ever hit by a car I'm sure any defending solicitor would be sure to mention illegal lights and reflectors 👿

how many of us are still breaking the law by not having pedal reflectors

a bike festooned with lights that don't conform to british standard wouldn't get a fine would it?

I thought the law only related to when they were sold by shops, and we are free to remove if we want?

I'd have thought cost of dynamo hub vs led lights and some batteries makes it a bit of a no brainer.

Well, no, not really. You can get Shimano dynamo hubs for £25 retail, they're ****ing heavy but they'll do the job.

The economics of fitting one after market do get a bit silly (wheel build etc) which is why I specifically said they should be specced on new bikes. There's a market for burly commute bikes like the Genesis Alfine, Charge Blender and the Pompino - they should do a "winter edition" of these with lighting added.

If you double up on lights you also guard against total unit failure aswell as batteries running out.

True dat, I've had bad experiences with all kinds of lights. But the overall reliability of dynamos must be higher than something that needs charging every couple of days.

I thought the law only related to when they were sold by shops, and we are free to remove if we want?

Nope, required by law in the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations.
See the CTC article on it here: http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4071

Some folk just don't seem to value their life highly enough.

Some folk, I genuinely believe, don't realise the risk they are taking.

When you're sat on a bike, you have a great visibility of the world. No blindspots, all your senses firing away voraciously, and everything passing by at an easy pace. Pedestrians don't walk around bumping into each other at night, and neither really, do cyclists. Streetlamps work their magic well.

It's when you get behind the wheel you realise how mental it is. Some people you will not see until they are a few feet away. By which time it's possibly too late.

I simply don't ride in the dark - I'm fortunate in not needing to so I don't.

Streetlamps work their magic well.

Yeah I actually think we are a bit over-reliant on them (as brooess was sort of suggesting earlier). It makes us forget how dark it really is.
We can see okay by them, we think we are safe, but motorist's eyes are adjusted to the light from their headlights, not from streetlights.

By contrast the majority of my commute is unlit. I simply couldn't do it without a decent light (I tried once: it took hours and was sketchy as hell). So I run a decent light and use it on the road bits too (suitable dipped down).

Regardless of the legal question, riding without lights on the road is punishable by being driven into by cars. Seems like it ought to be reason enough.

I think it is really hard to know how invisible you are from inside a car compared to how well you can say see by street lighting. Lights being required by law are a good example of where I think that the law is needed to protect people...

I met a bunch of roadies last night at about 9pm on my way back from Inners. As far as I could tell, although they all had lights they were all set to flashing mode. This made it really hard to tell how many of them there were and how much road they were taking up. Now while flashing lights might be a great idea for riding int towns and cities I think it may be better when riding on quiet country roads to have your lights on constant mode rather than flashing especially when in a fairly large group. Am I right in thinking that the law stipulates that you should have at least one rear light on in a constant rather than flashing state?

Am I right in thinking that the law stipulates that you should have at least one rear light on in a constant rather than flashing state?

Not any more. A flashing light is acceptable now.

No pedal reflectors on my bikes, but my commuting road bike has front and rear reflectors (two rear, one on the mudguard and one built into the rear steady light) and...

Respro ankle bands FTW!!! Day glow on the way in Scotchbrite on the way home. Nothing shouts "Cyclist" like these bad boys 🙂

[img] [/img]

Aldi had those little emergency 2 led front and rear lightsets for £3.50 they must cost pence bought in bulk the old bill could keepa box in the car and hand them out to kids with no light .They are bright enough to get you seen

Regardless of the legal question, riding [s]without lights[/s] on the road is punishable by being driven into by cars.

those respros look pretty good djaustin.
That coat in the guardian looked bright but a bit boil in the bag. Can I get a softshell in fluro yellow with SMIDSY? spelt out in leds on the back please?

I cant believe the number of cyclists doing the ninja thing at the moment. I normally don't leave work in daylight at this time of year and in the 3 miles to the motorway it isn't unusual to average 1 ninja / mile.

Whether riding or driving just be blooming visible is my prioriy! Flashing only lights are a pain in one respect they are not as good for depth or speed perception as a steady beam. As a driver I would favour both together or a dimming rather than on off flash.

Motorists arent exactly immune to no lights either!

[quote=stevenmenmuir ]I met a bunch of roadies last night at about 9pm on my way back from Inners. As far as I could tell, although they all had lights they were all set to flashing mode. This made it really hard to tell how many of them there were and how much road they were taking up.
(Probably ERC)
Yep - it's great, isn't it. I did some group night riding last winter (Carlisle - Edinburgh, Berwick - Edinburgh) and it's amazing how much more careful car drivers are when you are travelling as a group on unlit roads. They slow down and give you loads of room. If only it was like that all the time....

As for the pedal reflector issue, I'd argue that the SPD shoe [i]is[/i] part of the pedal and that has reflective bits on it 😉

Believe it or not the CTC campaigned hard for years against the introduction of any requirement for a bicycle to carry a rear light on the grounds that it was up to the overtaker (ie the car driver) to be making sure he could see what was ahead rather than make users of slower vehicles take the responsibility. They eventually lost the battle of course.

Believe it or not the CTC campaigned hard for years against the introduction of any requirement for a bicycle to carry a rear light on the grounds that it was up to the overtaker (ie the car driver) to be making sure he could see what was ahead rather than make users of slower vehicles take the responsibility. They eventually lost the battle of course.

Wasn't this like in the 40s or something, when horse drawn vehicles were still the norm?! Which does actually make a lot of sense, in that context.

Not so much these days. Bit of a shame in a way.

"[i]I'd have thought cost of dynamo hub vs led lights and some batteries makes it a bit of a no brainer.[/i]"

In Germany and Holland it's illegal not to have a dyno. And look at the ruinous effect that massive price hike has had on cycling in those countries.

A chap at work ( Mr safety conscious ) is lying in intensive care in an induced coma. Why? - cycling to work with no lights AND crucially no lid, he was found unconscious at the side of the road. Now we don't know did he just crash - weather was shit - or was he knocked off by a vehicle. The lid may have saved his fractured skull ( no other injuries) and the lights would have made him visible. Moral of this story, get both sorted, they may make sod all difference, but for a few quid you give yourself a fighting chance. You ARE not a road "warrior", just a other bug waiting for a car to take you out!!! (That would be a "dad" speech then)

Crazy thing is, you're probably able to buy lights in UK certified as compliant with the German StVZO, but no BS mark.

In Germany and Holland it's illegal not to have a dyno. And look at the ruinous effect that massive price hike has had on cycling in those countries.

Reflectors - I don't have any, or didn't until I found a pack of these in Aldi for a fiver -
[img] [/img]

For those who want some reflection without clutter, I can recommend these:

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_154685_langId_-1_categoryId_228860

I use them a lot. They're very reflective and they're pretty sticky - they'll wrap round a mudguard stay (2-3mm dia?) and not unwrap themselves; they'd probably be fine on a spoke as well. I've used them on rims, mudguards, frames, forks, helmets, seatposts, cranks, racks, mudguards, and - yes - even SPD pedals (well, ATACs, but they'd work on most clipless - I doubt they'd stick well to textured plastic). They may not be BS reflectors but they're the one thing I've found that you'll get on clipless pedals without them coming off.

cycling [b]to[/b] work with no lights

So presumably cycling in daylight then?

I'd probably leave the blame game up to the accident investigators.

In Birmingham the `proper' commuters seem to be largely dressed up like a christmas tree, its the casual cyclists with no lights which are a menace this time of year, and downright dangerous.

So presumably cycling in daylight then?

Depends what time you start work, where you live and how long the journey takes.

I do normal office hours, don't live on the edge of the Arctic circle and there's a good 2-3 months of the year when it's properly dark when I start my commute.

cycling to work with no lights

So presumably cycling in daylight then?

I'd probably leave the blame game up to the accident investigators.

What bails said +1

It was dark enough to need lights in Wokingham at 7:30 this morning, by Christmas I need lights for the inward and outbound journey.

http://www.cyclistsdefencefund.org.uk/cycle-lighting

This bit should be of interest to everyone riding along with their DX Bastids set to strobe:

No lamp should be used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to any persons using the road. Views will of course differ but the attentions of an enthusiastic policeman may be avoided if the angle of an intense front light is dipped slightly.

Believe it or not the CTC campaigned hard for years against the introduction of any requirement for a bicycle to carry a rear light on the grounds that it was up to the overtaker (ie the car driver) to be making sure he could see what was ahead rather than make users of slower vehicles take the responsibility. They eventually lost the battle of course.

It's a shame really, because where is the danger coming from on the roads? Yep, motor vehicles. So why should those who aren't creating the danger have a responsibility to mitigate it*? Ultimately it's another case of victim blaming really. However, we (Cyclists) and the rest of society have accepted it and grown accustomed to it so it's accepted.

* To put it another way, should we legally require pedestrians to use lights on shared use paths? If they aren't, and we cycle into them then it's their fault for not being lit? Sounds a bit ridiculous, but I can't think of any other analogy that doesn't!

Completely agree. From a pragmatic point of view I want to see and be seen, from a moral point of view I feel a bit sickened by some of the comments on this thread.

"Cyclists with no lights are a menace" - what, a menace to your paintwork?

should we legally require pedestrians to use lights on shared use paths?

I do see your point but to be honest... I think we probably should! Or at the very least wear something reflective.

Quite a few peds on my route carry torches at this time of year and will shine them at their dogs as I cycle towards them. Some even have flashy/hiviz collars on their dogs. That is immensely helpful of them and always gets a hearty "Thanks" from me.

Every now and then though I'll meet someone dressed completely in black, who will then berate me for having such a bright light?!?

I do see your point but to be honest... I think we probably should! Or at the very least wear something reflective.

Really?! I suppose it makes life easier for us as cyclists so from a purely selfish point of view I could agree. Unfortunately, morally I cannot, it's far more up to me to avoid hitting them than it is for them to avoid me hitting them, and forcing them to take impractical measures to make my life easier isn't something I would countenance.

Quite a few peds on my route carry torches at this time of year and will shine them at their dogs as I cycle towards them. Some even have flashy/hiviz collars on their dogs. That is immensely helpful of them and always gets a hearty "Thanks" from me.

Yep, I agree with all this. I cycle along canal towpaths and seeing folk allows me to cycle faster and avoid potential collisions. However, I'd never wish them to be forced to be lit/wear bright clothing just for my/other cyclists benefit. The prinicple is all wrong!

Really?!

Well no, probably not [i]legally compelled to[/i] - legislation is never nice - but a bit of simple public information wouldn't go amiss.

As I said on a different thread, I (only just) saw an old guy the other night dressed all in black wearing a full-face black balaclava. Bear in mind this is a pitch-black completely unlit rural path!

Peds shouldn't be forced to wear lights or reflectives, but likewise we shouldn't be forced to spend a small fortune on 2000 lumen lights so we can spot ninjas.