If you are whinging about the cost of insurance now you will be in for a shock if you get caught. Nothing puts up premiums like a 'driving with no insurance' conviction.
[disclosure - I live in Stockholm and the rules here are a little different...]
So, those bloody scooter things are legal here, but technically classed as cycles, so the same rules apply to them with where they can go and how they should be ridden (RANT: the rules get ignored all the frscking time!!).
It is also possible to buy a petrol moped with a limited engine size/power and have it classed as a cycle (i.e. no equivalent to MoT and therefore no license plates) an so allow it to be used on cycle tracks. These are limited in top speed.
You can buy electric mopeds (see above) that may or may not be besikted (MoT) and so may or may not have a license plate and be allowed on cycle tracks.
Electric bikes kind of fall into the latter category and are very popular here. You see a lot of pedal assist, but a lot of people do buy the imports with just a front wheel motor. As the rules around mopeds are quite clear, this second sort kind of falls into this category, but it is confusing enough that the lines are blurred if they have been chipped/hacked and exceed the regulations. I can imagine that you would only get your collar felt if you were either using one like a dick or had been in an accident and your victim said it was your fault.
To be honest, I have less of a problem with e-bikes of either sort than I do with the frscking scooters EVERYWHERE. They just get abandoned all over the place and the people using them are the biggest bunch of selfish, unobservant, uncoordinated, selfish fscks. I mean, why the FSCK would you use one to ride up a hill in a cycle lane GOING THE WRONG WAY??? WHY?? Retards.
That reminds me, a couple of weeks ago I was driving behind something that was just downright stupid, and so dangerous I couldn't quite believe it.
Sat in a queue of traffic at some lights in my car, 2 lanes going right onto a 40mph DC, 1 lane going left. A moped/scooter filters past on the inside of all three lanes - being a biker I though the filter move they made was a bit risky, said to myself 'ooh, don't do that! As they slotted into the already moving traffic - the rider was a young woman.
I end up behind the moped, and I then realise it's not a moped. It's an ebike. One of these things:
[img] 
[/img]
It had a numberplate with "Ebike!" on it, a top box, and at first glance appeared to be a scooter/moped capable of 30mph. The girl riding it was wobbling along in the outside lane of a 40mph DC (because she was turning into a filter lane 1km up the road) at 15mph, with about 20 cars behind her, not able to pass because of a couple of hgvs in lane one.
I don't know if they're legal to buy/ride or not, but jesus christ that person is another statistic waiting to happen. 😞
I've done several thousand miles on a 125cc motorbike and that felt dodgy on main roads, a 50cc moped must feel bloody horrible. This is another level, riding basically a 15mph moped on main roads like its a motorbike, filtering in traffic etc is only going to end one way, especially as the rider looked like they had very little motorbike riding skills. This bike won't have needed a CBT either.
Convert. I don't have a bosch.
I can ride to work with zero input. Infact I could push the pedals back and forth without completing a single revolution and the motor would still take me to 15.5mph
^^ see a woman on in of those some days, it’s quite comical how slow she goes, puzzled drivers queuing behind her as her legs furiously spin 😂
OP surely just has to get used to a different method of commuting?
From the encounters with ebikes I’ve had on my commute, they’re quicker in some places and fair bit slower in others, so just different.
Be quite something if the cops stopped you on a chipped bike - of all the lawbreaking that goes on on the roads unchallenged, to prosecute someone who is trying to be safer, seems quite ridiculous. Laws is laws though eh (except when it comes to driving a car).
Convert. I don’t have a bosch.
I can ride to work with zero input. Infact I could push the pedals back and forth without completing a single revolution and the motor would still take me to 15.5mph
So what model/make is yours. Presume illegal/broken/chipped?
Nope just not torque sensing.
All it wants is to know you're moving the pedals
It's a bafang bbs
And hell because it predates the regs I could fit the throttle
It’s a bafang bbs
Ah, so not actually legal then.
Getting ready for the dismissals or being called a "hater" for posting this here. But here goes...
For your BMI you're better off getting the bus or riding a motorcycle than commuting via ebike.
In that study: "Transport Mode Choice and Body Mass Index - Cross sectional and Longitudinal evidence from a European-Wide Study" - in terms of BMI benefits the choice comes out like this, in order:
1) Riders of normal bikes.
2) Walking to work.
3) Bus/public transport (inc. walking to the bus stop/station)
4) Motorbikes.
5) e-bikes
6) Cars
Basically, because you don't have to push hard on the pedals whilst commuting you're probably better off walking to the bus stop. (In health terms). Study was based on 10,722 participants (just for those who will discount it out of hand because they don't like the message).
Of course, for *enjoyment* of your commute that's a totally different kettle of fish. 🙂
Convert - bafengs can be a legal installation depending what model. the 250W one is legal for UK use
You can buy fully legal e bikes that only cadence sense not torque sense
and I then realise it’s not a moped. It’s an ebike. One of these things:
Yeah, erm..... That’s not an ebike.
Other than that. Spot on 👍
(And illegal on the road if not registered/insured/etc/etc)
Chevy - interesting post. Because this is a cycling forum I think we probably think about this from the wrong angle. Ebikes should maybe not be thought of as a replacement for a bike but as a replacement for a car. If you are happy riding a normal bike to work - a bike without the extra expense and environment aspects of one with a battery, then crack on. But there are plenty that would put up barriers (reasonable and unreasonable) for transfering from their car to a bike. If they were to go to an ebike that is better for all of us. That's where the real wins are to be had.
It’s a bafang bbs
Ah, so not actually legal then.
No perfectly legal. It's a bbs02 250watt.
trail_rat
Member
It’s a bafang bbsAh, so not actually legal then.
No perfectly legal. It’s a bbs02 250watt.
apart from the bike you put it on is so long and heavy its puts it in the HGV class! 😉
No perfectly legal. It’s a bbs02 250watt.
OK - didn't realise they did a 250W model. And as you talked about a throttle presume it was manufactured before 2015 or 16 when the regs changed.
Whilst yours maybe legal it does stretch the term 'pedal assist' to the limits. Pedal alternative or pedal initiated would seem more appropriate. The bosch/yamaha etc approach does seem more in keeping and ultimately more appropriate. It'll be the blurred line products and the downright illegal that will anger the general public and make lawmakers twitchy.
Aside - finding the details for the geeky post above I saw that bosch now make a cargo model with more grunt - that has to be the way ahead and even closer to a car alternative.
Empty it's still under the weight limit.
"In that study: “Transport Mode Choice and Body Mass Index – Cross sectional and Longitudinal evidence from a European-Wide Study” – in terms of BMI benefits the choice comes out like this, in order:
1) Riders of normal bikes.
2) Walking to work.
3) Bus/public transport (inc. walking to the bus stop/station)
4) Motorbikes.
5) e-bikes
6) Cars"
The fact that this study uses BMI as the arbiter of health shows that it's fundamentally flawed. But even if that was a good way to measure health, can anyone explain why riding a motorbike is better exercise than riding an e-bike? I've done the same commute many times on both!
@convert - yep absolutely - if ebike journeys are replacing car journeys then for the rest of us that's a great thing. For the individual user's health not so much - but wider benefits are more than welcome. It just needs mass take-up to realise those benefits - as long as it remains a minority thing the benefits will remain marginal (and the environmental benefits from manufacturing are only realised if they're car *replacements* - not just in addition to...). But broadly I agree with you.
@chiefgrooveguru - was wondering who was going to have a pop at BMI which, despite what a lot of people really want to believe, is a *really good* indicator of not just weight but general health - especially on a population level basis (yeah, how many of us really are rugby players or elite body-builders? Not that many).
Having actually read the study itself - motorbikes, cars and ebikes are pretty much the same (marginal differences, but in the order specified).
The take from that is - if you use motorised or motor-assisted transport of *any* form from your door - then there's no health benefits. i.e. - walking to the bus stop is generally better for you.
You can try to dismiss it - but that's actual evidence, rather than just "I reckon".
And I'll repeat - it doesn't take into account enjoyment. 🙂
The take from that is – if you use motorised or motor-assisted transport of *any* form from your door – then there’s no health benefits. i.e. – walking to the bus stop is generally better for you.
Nope - you cannot take that from it at all. Thats extrapolating far too far.
I bet it would an hour's walk to the bus stop would keep me fitter for sure.
Or I could just cycle.
But then walking back from the bus stop with my shopping might be tough.
As car replacements, they are a good idea and should be applauded. I think I have said before that a lot of the time people here use them to extend the range that they can commute in the same time, with less effort, or cheaper than taking the associated public transport. It helps that there is, still I believe, government assistance for purchasing e-bikes for commuting.
For me (5km commute), I would not consider an e-bike. The journey is too short and quick to warrant one and the initial outlay. If I was living in the suburbs, or somewhere like Sollentuna (i.e. cheaper than central Stockholm, but between 10 and 20km out), then I would consider one for sure if I did not like my commuter bike so much.
Due to the lessfrequent use of motorcycle and e-bike compared to other modes, confidence intervals were wider and mostly not statistically significant
So thats hardly conclusive!
Also as far as I can see the study makes no other measure of fitmness or activity - nor does it have any controls nor does it seem to try to level out the various groups ie where the e bike users fatties anyway?
So while its a piece of data its very flawed
@tjagain - that's not extrapolation - that's a conclusion of the study.
It's a direct line from:
All motorised transport from the door provides practically zero health benefit
Non-motorised transport from the door (walking or bikes) provides some health benefit.
That's not extrapolation. That's simple results analysis.
If you have *evidence* to disprove the above, totally happy to read and consume it. 🙂
@tjagain - yep. On conclusivity in *some* parts of the study there's more work that can be done. But I daresay there's not much of an appetite to fund another 10,000+ people study.
Cherry picking bits of it in an attempt to trash the whole study (because you don't like it) doesn't actually invalidate the conclusions.
There's always "more to be done". But at the moment, that's the best evidence we have (and it ain't bad). And what does the best evidence we have say??
...oh yeah 🙁
Plus. Again. Enjoyment 🙂
Sorry dude but its a poor study and the conclusions are not robust.
I just glanced thru it and picked out some major flaws.
So basically it proves nothing
All motorised transport from the door provides practically zero health benefit
Non-motorised transport from the door (walking or bikes) provides some health benefit.
impossible to make that conclusion from the study - as its measuring BMI not health.
~the conclusion should be "practically zero reduction in BMI" ~
for example the e bikes could be putting on muscle bulk hence weight not going down!
Oh gawd, someone’s used the “lazy” argument. And its turned into one of those ****ing tedious threads. Sooooooooo predictable.
Knives out.
I took a rescue dog on, the 6 to 10 miles a day I walk him coupled with commuting by gravel bike meant I was getting fatigued so I started driving again. The ebike allows me to ditch the car again.
"@chiefgrooveguru – was wondering who was going to have a pop at BMI which, despite what a lot of people really want to believe, is a *really good* indicator of not just weight but general health – especially on a population level basis (yeah, how many of us really are rugby players or elite body-builders? Not that many)."
BMI is only a good indicator of obesity or otherwise across a whole population. It does not work across the full range of human builds, regardless of training for athletic pursuits and should never be used on individuals.
I'm not a rugby player or elite bodybuilder but I do enjoy lifting weights. My BMI is 27. If I was genetically large-framed I could easily be this BMI without doing any lifting and still be perfectly healthy. It's a terrible measure, especially for women with larger frames and hourglass figures who distribute bodyfat well for health.
"Having actually read the study itself – motorbikes, cars and ebikes are pretty much the same (marginal differences, but in the order specified)."
Yes but based on using all three forms of transport to commute the same route (and normal bikes too, and I've run it a few times but that's tiresome) I know it's complete and utter bollocks.
I've never commuted on the e-bike and managed to pedal the route so gently that my heart rate has stayed as low as on the 50cc scooter or in the car. I often pedal the e-bike as hard as the normal bike. I sometimes pedal it a lot harder because it's so damned quick. As soon as I'm on the flat I can turn the assistance off using the handlebar remote and nothing changes - so I'm doing all the work because I'm above the 15.5mph limit.
There have been a number of studies that actually measured riders' levels of physical exertion when using e-bikes, and they've all found that it's equivalent to or better than walking. e.g. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01441647.2015.1069907
Walking's good exercise because it's low impact and walking anywhere tends to take a long time. I can imagine a very short e-bike commute wouldn't raise your metabolic rate for long enough to provide much health benefit, but that's probably not how most people are using them.
there is a huge difference between a couple of slow miles on an ebike in dutch conditions to a long commute on one in UK conditions. too many variables not controlled for
Half a mile or crossing the road to your bus stop?
lulz :rolleyes:
I've been thinking about the Swytch kit to convert my Day One (with hub gear - a bit porky).
My commute is around 12 miles each way with 1150 feet of climbing to work (av speed ~12-13mph, just under an hour), and 750 feet home (av speed 14-15mph, 45-50 mins).
Am I deluded in thinking converting my bike to an ebike would save me time? I'm also knackered after a few days in a row, so thinking it might make things a bit easier. Also in winter things slow down further (cold, extra kit, winter tyres) so thinking the gains in winter might be even better.
Unsure really. Any advice? MTFU?
“Am I deluded in thinking converting my bike to an ebike would save me time?”
It’ll save some time, not tons.
“I’m also knackered after a few days in a row, so thinking it might make things a bit easier.“
Yes, when you’re knackered it’s way easier without it taking forever to complete the journey.
If I didn’t want to enjoy a decent length weekly night ride and go to the gym most days then I’d just MTFU with my short commute. For your longer commute it’ll leave you more energy for enjoying riding - or even deliberately having intense fast commute days and more laidback recovery commute days.
Who the **** cares?
Sandy - you might save a few minutes on the climbs - my urban commute of 7 miles and 1000 ish feet of climbing went from 45 to 35 mins on the way in and the same time on the downhill home. You have a higher average speed than I did ( loads of traffic lights) so you would be off the assistance more. my guess would be save you 5 mins max
Oh look…
Aside from when you actually read the study its not quite so clear cut.
Main highlights are the level of activity is about the same for both groups with the gain being for those switching from cars etc.
For those already cycling it actually had a drop in overall exercise levels.
The classification of cyclist is also somewhat dubious since it covers absolutely everything rather than the equivalent population and if you touched an ebike then you got counted as a ebiker.
Although it may confirm some prejudices given that ebikers are fatter than normal cyclists.
Thanks for the advice. I'm still totally unsure. I'd love to try a swytch kit first, ideally. I think on the bad days I'm significantly slower so it would be awesome to have one of these things to fall back on.
