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So being cynical and harsh then.... you're still not putting in the same level of effort as a manual bike 😉
If the ride has any fences to lift the bike over then it can be more effort than a regular bike.
Some effort it is getting one of these over a fence!
An E Bike ride will also include more Descending than a regular bike ride within the same time.
As is well known, descents are a workout in themselves and look how quickly people get knackered at uplift days.
To me I feel like I've cheated on nearly every single bike ride whether its regular MTB or EMTB - I use the car to get to the start of the ride.
I hardly ever ride from the house.
Plus, the distance I do in the car to get to/from the ride is nearly always a lot greater than the distance I've ridden my bike.
all taken in good spirit 🙂 Well done fella.
You seem to be enjoying it, that's good enough for me.
“100% of bike riders I have followed who have all been putting in very little effort when going 15mph up hill with me putting in pretty much max effort to keep up with them.”
Don’t you usually ride in the New Forest, which is pretty damned flat?! If you don’t have a decent hill to contend with any reasonably fit rider will hit the limiter on their ebike which removes the psychological incentive to pedal harder to go faster as suddenly the effort:return ratio drops through the floor.
I honestly don’t think I pedal any less hard on the Levo than on my non-E bikes, excerpt when I’m commuting, not running late and on the flat (or thereabouts) so I’m pedalling to the limiter and then backing off.
If you don’t have a decent hill to contend with any reasonably fit rider will hit the limiter on their ebike which removes the psychological incentive to pedal harder to go faster
Not really, 15mph is far quicker than most riders go on proper off road going flat or undulating. Quick sprints maybe but not over any distance. A quick look at a typical undulating but climb neutral strava segment in my local woods has the kom at 15.5mph. Thats held by a e-mtb rider who keeps loging his rides as a normal mtb. Nearest normaly aspirated rider is at 13.5mph. The higher speed is down to the e-mtb being able to go at close to 15mph on up bits but obviously over that on the down.
“Not really, 15mph is far quicker than most riders go on proper off road going flat or undulating.“
On a normal MTB, definitely - although not for short sprints.
All I can speak is from my experience as someone who’s a fairly decent pedaller (I’m no amateur XC racer but I’ve got a good amount of power), once you add a motor to that pedal power you can go very quickly indeed on the flat or subtle inclines.
The day bikes loose access to the trails is the day I will have no life.
What are these ‘trails’? And are they for bikes?
That figure looks like it’s ignoring the relative cost of living in different countries…..
Not really ... because the 1% isn't really 1% and because COL is less country specific than it used to be.
I'm not going to look up every country but I'd expect India has more people earning >US$50k than the UK... even though it also has many very poor people.
One of the more embarrassing things I ever won was a "guess the price" game in greater Dehli... at a friends kids school (who earns >50k or thereabouts) and many things are not as cheap as you might expect.
Personally Love the idea of eBikes.... especially as I get older and Jnr gets bigger....
Without reading the whole thread though what rattles my cage is the EMBN rhetoric about "once you make the change" and "ebikes are the future" and "in the future you won't be able to buy clockwork/acoustic bikes"
I'm genuinely interested ... hired one on hols in Mallorca... borrow my brothers sometimes... but I dislike the who "once you ditch the clockwork" crap immensely.
A couple of e-bike related incidents from this weekend's riding in the Dales.
On Saturday morning I went for a quick blast on my own. Heading back across one particular boggy section of moor I met a walker. "Oh, how do you like the e-bike?" he asks. "Eh?" Then I realise he's mistaken my frame bag for a battery! (I did think cheeky bu*****! TBH) we had a chat for a while discussing the daft BWs that end up in the middle of nowhere because the landowner objected then went our ways.
On Sunday my wife and I were doing a loop around Horton in Ribblesdale, just a steady pootle out enjoying the day. We crossed the fancy bridge over the Ribble near Selside and almost caught up with a rider who was having difficulty getting going. He zipped off before we caught him and he took quite a bit of time out of us heading up the hill. A while later I caught up with him and it was then I noticed he was on an e-bike. It was just as well that he'd stopped as he was about to go completely the wrong way on his chosen route which involved heading over Cam Head to Semer Water and back via Stake Moss. He was in his seventies so good effort in getting out and going for something like that.
As for doing 15mph on an MTB, at this year's JennRide I got across the Windermere ferry then was riding along the track from Ferry Nab to Wray next to a mate on an e-bike. It was the classic: "He's going a bit quick so I'll try and keep up" from each of us so we ended up caning it! My average speed on those flat Strava segments was 23.5kmh or just under 15mph and gets me around 80th out of 3700 - the KOM is 2 minutes quicker at a speed of 31kmh. Stick in any kind of a hill and that speed is going to drop considerably.
Don’t you usually ride in the New Forest, which is pretty damned flat?! If you don’t have a decent hill to contend with any reasonably fit rider will hit the limiter on their ebike
Yes I am in the New Forest. It is far from flat, and there are loads of rolling gravel hills where even the fastest riders are not hitting 15mph. The last time I was following an ebike up a 3 mile segment (mostly uphill) I was almost at throwing up point while they were clearly very casually pedalling along.
Here is a typical mostly gravel loop (not exactly flat is it)
The E Bikes provide a heavier upper body workout than the regular bike. Definitely due to the heavier weight to lift whenever you have to lift one off the ground for whatever reason (e.g. putting it on a bike rack, lifting it over a style, lifting one onto a bike stand, flipping one upside down)
It could also be due to the increased amount of descending, the heavier bike to handle, and the overall amount of bike handling is higher as the bike stays at around 15mph or above all the time.
“Yes I am in the New Forest. It is far from flat, and there are loads of rolling gravel hills where even the fastest riders are not hitting 15mph. The last time I was following an ebike up a 3 mile segment (mostly uphill) I was almost at throwing up point while they were clearly very casually pedalling along.”
I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at. Yes, it’s hard to pedal a normal bike uphill at 15mph. Yes, it’s easy on an ebike to cruise uphill at a speed that is killing a normal cyclist.
But you can pedal harder on an ebike and go faster, working just as hard as on a normal bike - and if you’re vaguely good at pedalling then no-one on a normal bike will keep up unless they’re a pro or top level amateur racer and they’ll be pushing very hard too.
“Here is a typical mostly gravel loop (not exactly flat is it)”
In MTBing terms, that is pretty flat! And I live in Brighton, not The Andes... What total elevation gain was there on that ride?
I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at. Yes, it’s hard to pedal a normal bike uphill at 15mph. Yes, it’s easy on an ebike to cruise uphill at a speed that is killing a normal cyclist.
But you can pedal harder on an ebike and go faster, working just as hard as on a normal bike – and if you’re vaguely good at pedalling then no-one on a normal bike will keep up unless they’re a pro or top level amateur racer and they’ll be pushing very hard too.
What I am getting at (as per my initial point) is that in my experience people are not working as hard as on a normal bike as I see them casually turning the pedals while going uphill at 15mph. I don't think may riders are working just as hard. I don't actually care, was just making the point.
In MTBing terms, that is pretty flat! And I live in Brighton, not The Andes… What total elevation gain was there on that ride?
I don't care what elevation gain it is, the point is it is hardly flat is it (i.e. it is pretty much always going up or down with very few actual flat parts. Maintaining 15mph is tough going.
But you can pedal harder on an ebike and go faster, working just as hard as on a normal bike – and if you’re vaguely good at pedalling then no-one on a normal bike will keep up unless they’re a pro or top level amateur racer and they’ll be pushing very hard too
A pro or amateur racer might be able to do 15mph uphill for a short time but definitely not able to keep that up over a 3 hour loop with massive off road hills like this:
https://www.strava.com/activities/2514777786
No one could possibly do that loop on a normal bike in 3 hours moving time, pro or not
“What I am getting at (as per my initial point) is that in my experience people are not working as hard as on a normal bike as I see them casually turning the pedals while going uphill at 15mph. I don’t think may riders are working just as hard. I don’t actually care, was just making the point.”
That’s because it’s quite flat where you are. It is bloody hard work holding an ebike at 15mph up a steeper hill!
“I don’t care what elevation gain it is, the point is it is hardly flat is it (i.e. it is pretty much always going up or down with very few actual flat parts. Maintaining 15mph is tough going”
Yes but once you have some steeper hills there is no hope of doing 15mph up them without a motor to help. Comparing some climbs I’ve done on ebike vs similar MTB, up a 7% gradient my PR on the normal bike is averaging 7.1mph, on the ebike I’m averaging 14.8mph. Strava is estimating 711W mean for that ebike climb.
I don’t think may riders are working just as hard.
No, you CAN take it easier on an e-bike, this is an advantage for some people. But it doesn't stop you pedalling just as hard for just as long and getting the same workout if you want.
No, you CAN take it easier on an e-bike, this is an advantage for some people. But it doesn’t stop you pedalling just as hard for just as long and getting the same workout if you want.
Yes, and in my experience I have only come across the people who are the take it easier types. I expect there are quite a few of those and that is the appeal of the ebike to them, that is all.
No doubt the majority of ebike riders are those that put in exactly the same amount of effort as a person on a non ebike.
Perhaps that's because the ones that work hard are off the beaten track riding the harder to access, more technically demanding trails?
Or just reeeeaaaly far ahead of you 👍
in my time riding them, I'd say that i feel I am working as hard and my HR is similar but without the high peaks i'd get out the saddle on a steep climb ( the whole reason I bought one, due medical issues). Overall calorie count much the same as on analog bike, I tend to do more sections of trail in a given time period though.
But it doesn’t stop you pedalling just as hard for just as long
Er, it kind of does though, unless you find bigger hills. Yes you can ride for just as long in total, but less of that will be pedalling.
Obviously you can turn off the assistance, but I'm assuming we are talking about actually using some assistance here, or you're riding a very heavy very expensive normal bike.
I'm not necessarily saying that will be a bad thing (although the research suggests in general ebikers get less of a workout, which is hardly surprising given people are buying something that makes it easier to get up hills, but doesn't mean you *can't*), you might want to work on your upper body, and uplift days certainly tire you out, you might just want shorter bursts at higher intensity. But you can't pedal as hard for as long for each climb.
"But you can pedal harder on an ebike and go faster, working just as hard as on a normal bike"
Yeah yeah.
Because that's what all ebike owners do. :rolleyes:
They definitely don't buy bikes and then get disappointed that they're not giving them the boost they wanted (judging by posts on this very forum) at all...
“Er, it kind of does though, unless you find bigger hills. Yes you can ride for just as long in total, but less of that will be pedalling.“
Maybe I’m an odd case but on my own I pedal harder uphill on the ebike because the hills take less time. Everything becomes more sprinty, like interval training. It’s really nice being able to push yourself hard, safe in the knowledge that the motor will save you if you burn out.
On group rides I do most of the uphills with the power off, I’m middle to front of the pack without a motor in our typical groups. It’s a good challenge hauling a much heavier bike. Love the full power assist to get me home more quickly afterwards (and stop me being late for the 7pm start).
I don’t know what everyone else does and I really don’t care.
"I don’t know what everyone else does and I really don’t care."
Or, really:
"I'm fully aware that the majority are slackers who bought ebikes precisely to make things easy on themselves (and I'm probably occasionally a bit of that myself) - and I do care that haters have this realistic view of why most people buy 'em - but don't like to admit they're right"
😉
I live in the South Pennines so it's all massive hills, routes tend to be all peaks and troughs.
On these types of rides there are two options:
Option 1) You can take it very easy on an EBike and ride at at an average pace of around 12-13kph which is just about keeping up with a fast rider on a regular MTB. On an E Bike this would be a very easy effort and you would barely need to try.
Option 2) Hard effort, pedalling as hard as a fast rider on a regular bike. This will be averaging around 20kph on the E-bike, the ride will be just as much effort as a regular mountain bike ride in this area the only difference is you'll be going about 70% faster overall (and around 2 to 3 times faster up steep climb segments) and you would have to make the route 70% longer to make the exercise last for the same duration of time.
So yes you can use an E Bike to be lazy and make the ride easy, but you won't be going very fast.
Or you can go as fast as you can and it will be a similar sort of effort as going as hard as you can on a regular bike. As said before, many off road climbs are so tough that its very hard to even keep an EBike at 15mph on these.
Er, it kind of does though, unless you find bigger hills. Yes you can ride for just as long in total, but less of that will be pedalling.
Eh? If you ride for just as long but are going faster, then you are going to be taking in more hills surely?
“But you can pedal harder on an ebike and go faster, working just as hard as on a normal bike”
Yeah yeah.
Because that’s what all ebike owners do. :rolleyes:
Piss off with the eye roll, I haven't even said that thing you are eye rolling about. I'm saying they don't prevent you from working hard (as some people seem to be arguing). It's up to the rider how hard they want to pedal, and some won't want to pedal as hard as others, which is the same as it is on non e-bikes. If you're lazy, you're lazy, regardless, and vice versa.
If I had an e-bike I'd use it to get me out to Sirhowy to do a load of the big steep stuff and get back inside 3 hours. It's probably a 4.5 hour ride now on the big bike if I want to get in a few runs, and it's much harder for me to fit a 4.5hr ride into my family weekend.
Or you can go as fast as you can and the effort will be the same as going as fast as you can on a regular bike
Still waiting for someone to show me a strava/HR trace of 2 rides, 2 hours, with similar HR arverage and Max on both an Ebike and a manual one.
Until then, i don't think you're trying as hard as you think you are 🙂
“Still waiting for someone to show me a strava/HR trace of 2 rides, 2 hours, with similar HR arverage and Max on both an Ebike and a manual one.”
I’ve never ever used a heart rate monitor and I don’t intend to start now!
I remember EMBN did a video showing a test between two bike rides, one on an E Bike one on a regular bike with HR figures to show that there wasn't any difference.
EMBN a biased EMTB network ? Who'd have thought it 😉
I remember EMBN did a video showing a test between two bike rides, one on an E Bike one on a regular bike with HR figures to show that there wasn’t any difference.
Yea, but that misses the massively glaringly obvious point that one is a metabolically appropriate heart rate, and the other isn't, it's just caused by adrenaline etc.
Go on a go-kart with a HRM and it will probably give you a similar result. And no a go-kart is not a workout, even if your arms ache a bit afterwards.
@brianblessed - yes, once again another poorly designed (and reported) study of just 33 participants.
There's only one well-designed authoritative study done with ebikes, and it's already been posted.
Perhaps that’s because the ones that work hard are off the beaten track riding the harder to access, more technically demanding trails?
Maybe, how would I know? Based on that I will just stick to the ebike riders I can physically see rather than ones I could imagine.
Like I said, maybe ALL of the riders I see are in the 1% who are not trying and bought a bike to help them up hills with less effort.
There’s only one
well-designed authoritativestudy with results I agree with done with ebikes
FTFY
“Like I said, maybe ALL of the riders I see are in the 1% who are not trying and bought a bike to help them up hills with less effort.”
You’re riding in the New Forest. No one goes to the New Forest to ride as many awesome descents as possible. As your yourself have stated, you can ride the climbs of the New Forest at speed on an XC bike and you don’t need more travel or gnarlier geometry for the descents.
It’s like going to Bedgebury and commenting on how lacking in tech skills the MTBers are.
Yea, but that misses the massively glaringly obvious point that one is a metabolically appropriate heart rate, and the other isn’t, it’s just caused by adrenaline etc.
That's just silly. Adrenaline on a regular MTB ride? Either you're being chased by bears or you're in fear of your life on MTB rides. I think most people are a bit more realxed than that.
I have to be pretty wound up to hit 90bpm HR through adrenaline, however 150bpm is a gentle ride.
Like I said, maybe ALL of the riders I see are in the 99% who are not trying and bought a bike to help them up hills with less effort.
You’re riding in the New Forest. No one goes to the New Forest to ride as many awesome descents as possible. As your yourself have stated, you can ride the climbs of the New Forest at speed on an XC bike and you don’t need more travel or gnarlier geometry for the descents.
I can only comment on where I ride and they are my observations. And while I can ride the climbs at a decent speed I cannot ride most of them at 15mph and if I could I would have a lot more KOMs than I have.
Why are some people getting so upset at others choosing to opt for electrical assistance? Who is being cheated? I'm not. The e-mtber might be fat / lazy / infirm / elderly or perfectly fit, it's nobody's business but theirs why they chose an EAPC and they shouldn't feel pressured to justify themselves to anyone. I ride what I like, so do you, why not them?
Honestly, it's like roadies debating disk brakes. If you like the idea, go for it, if not, don't.