[Closed] downhill is the f1 of our industry....

Care to expand?

Yep. It's far, far more exciting than that and requires too much skill. WRC maybe?

what is then?

Personally I find DH a bit boring to watch (except Danny Hart's run last season), so F1 probably isn't a bad comparison - I find 4x far more exciting, yet it's been dropped from the UCI world cup series.

Pook - Member
what is then?

surely weight weenied Carbon XC bikes are the formula one of the MTB world..? DH is more like monster trucks or Rally as previously suggested.

just read it on the comments board dirt website regarding 29 dh bikes. It is the most pointless comparison. I have read it before and thought why compare two dissimilar things and then say that they are alike? Are mountain bikers/dirt readers this mentally, creatively and literary challenged? Or is this level of uselessness infiltrated throughout the world of cycling?

If you need to have a motorsports analogy DH is perhaps more akin to Rallying or of course MX or Enduro (assuming reference to two wheeled Motorsports is allowed)...

Although of course when I had to try and explain DH to a work colleage the other day I said it was essentially the same format as Downhill sking (single competitor at a time down the course, against the clock) but on an enginless MX bike, Sort of...

To my mind Track cycling is more like F1, a totally pared down to the bare essentials version of racing on a purpose built track, using purpose built bikes that are totally impractical in most other environments.

DH is a unique sport, similar in certain aspects to many others, but not totally comparable to any of them really...

All IMO of course...

What's meant by the comparison - is it to say F1 is the vanguard of technological advancement that trickles down to the mass market?

That is the case with MTB suspension and disk brakes being pioneered on the DH scene - probably the big two (only two?) genuine innovations in mountain biking in the last 20 years.

what is then?

Nothing. Downhill is the downhill of cycling. That is my point.

What's meant by the comparison - is it to say F1 is the vanguard of technological advancement that trickles down to the mass market?

I'd agree with this. Which came first, HT2 Saint or HT2 DA groupsets? although i'm supprised shimano didn't bring out an electronic DH specific groupset (well XTR came first and ended up on soem DH bikes).

I'd also draw comparisons to people watching/following it, I'd guess more people have an idea what's going on with DH results than the XC, in the same way F1 makes the news but I've no idea what's going on in WRC (or ICR or any of the other rallies).

Nothing. Downhill is the downhill of cycling. That is my point.

sounds like autism to me; no comparison allowed.

I'd agree with this. Which came first, HT2 Saint or HT2 DA groupsets? although i'm supprised shimano didn't bring out an electronic DH specific groupset (well XTR came first and ended up on soem DH bikes).

Is that a rhetorical question? HT2 XTR came in 2003, DA and Saint in 2004, as you sort of imply, so DH isn't the technological leader.

Shimano did Airlines for DH, but it was crap. As they don't do an electronic MTB groupset full stop I can't see them limiting their market so much by making it a 'DH specific' one.

I don't think you can really say that it's the home of all technological advancements, certainly in some areas, but in terms of weight and material technology and what not it tends to lag behind other competitive disciplines.

Nascar?

Not very exciting, people don't overtake each other, and you don't need to be very fit? Sounds about right.

id say the comparison is justified in that a few 10ths of a second can make the difference in both sports,
so equipment has to be as efficient as possible
and things like line choice are also critical
basically messing up your exit/ entry from 1 corner can effect your entire race run

dh like f1 also has pit crews and a similar traveling circus between venues

other than that they are quite different, dh is interesting f1 is dull

Is that a rhetorical question? HT2 XTR came in 2003, DA and Saint in 2004, as you sort of imply, so DH isn't the technological leader.

Shimano did Airlines for DH, but it was crap. As they don't do an electronic MTB groupset full stop I can't see them limiting their market so much by making it a 'DH specific' one.

I originaly made a comment about track bikes being conservative (someone up there suggested they were the F1 of cycling) yet they don't have HT2, or any other development, just refined versions (areodynamic, stiffer, lighter) of the same steel bikes they were using 100 years ago. after gettign rid ofthat comment I guess the HT2 comment was a bit out of context.

True it'd be silly to limit it to just DH, but cable routing is usualy more of an issue on DH bikes so it might be a better application for it, even if it's an XTR groupset with a saint mech.

NASCAR is the Kirin of motorsport, that analogy even works as far as tactics are concerned with people draftign intot e last corner in order to get a faster run up the straight to the line.

For a similar race format to F1 you'd have to look at Crit races or XC. But I'd still argue that F1 has the more technology and popular following.

I can see how people think DH is like F1, more visible technical changes and developments in DH over the last ~20 years than just about any other field of cycling, but alot of those Developments have been lifted from Motorcycles rather than F1...

The F1 analogy falls down on many fronts really:

In F1 Aero is King! - In DH the governing body effectively banned any work in that field because it looked "a bit Gay" apparently...

In F1 the competitors are paid millions and are covered in logos - In DH the Competitors are paid a relative pittance and still covered in logos

In F1 the Venues are Glamourous sun drenched and attended by Celebrities - DH venues are mostly in the Arseend of nowhere on a windy, wet hill

In F1 you get David Coulthard and Martin Brundle giving informed Commentary throughout the race then lofty and Eddie wander about annoying the tits off of pit crews/drivers to get you all the F1 "Gossip" - In DH you get Rob Warner and any of his mates who are at a loose end, Swearing, taking the piss and occasionally discussing the racing...

IMO DH is far better to watch, and easier to get into at a grass roots level, but I still like watching F1...

, and you don't need to be very fit?

You clearly know nothing about what it takes to compete in DH at the highest level.

I'd say in terms of frame and suspension design it is the F1 of the mtb world. Also, it is a great proving ground for new materials.

[i]You clearly know nothing about what it takes to compete in DH at the highest level.[/i]
a motorbike with the engine taken off, and the ability to say 'dude' a lot, isn't it?

Also, it is a great proving ground for new materials.

Which ones?

DH is pretty much the last place people are still raceing on aluminium alloy bikes, and was definately the last to have CFRP bikes.

a motorbike with the engine taken off, and the ability to say 'dude' a lot, isn't it?

[img] [/img]

I said a proving ground, not a place for innovation. My point being that if it is strong enough to survive a DH season, then it is more than suitable for a bunch of lightweight jeyboys.

[s]dh[/s]competitive cycling like f1 also has pit crews and a similar traveling circus between venues

FTFY

I'd say in terms of frame and suspension design it is the F1 of the mtb world. Also, it is a great proving ground for new materials.

Suspension design (in that there's lots of it) perhaps, but less sure about frame design, and certainly not materials. When did you see any materials being tested in DH that had not made their mark in XC or on production bikes? We're just seeing carbon being used more widely now.

More money goes into designing XC/trail bikes because that's where the manufacturer's money is made, so I'm not sure on what grounds you can say DH is the leader?

Well that was allegedly the real point of the RN01wasn't it...

Honda weren't really all that bothered about human powered gearboxes they were instead looking on DH as a good relatively low cost competative testing ground for new ideas and materials to use in their MX/Enduro bike frames...

That was the rumour anyway (one of many)...

a motorbike with the engine taken off, and the ability to say 'dude' a lot, isn't it?

Have you seen Gee Atherton with his top off? 😯

See Tracey Mosely setting the highest placed brit at the last World xc round at Dalby for another example.

You do have to be VERY fit to race DH...

what! the tours are without doubt the "f1" of cycling

[i]Have you seen Gee Atherton with his top off? [/i]
I have no idea who he is, but I'm not *particularly* into seeing naked or semi-naked men, thanks.

Have you seen Gee Atherton with his top off? I have no idea who he is, but I'm not *particularly* into seeing naked or semi-naked men, thanks.

You are arguing about DH and you don't know who Gee Atherton is? Please put this thread down and step away slowly as you have no right to be here.

Well just to prove it I think we need a picture of his sister with her top off. Just in the interest of, err, balance and all that.

I said a proving ground, not a place for innovation. My point being that if it is strong enough to survive a DH season, then it is more than suitable for a bunch of lightweight jeyboys.

So why did it work more allong the lines of;

"if it is strong enough to survive a [i]XC[/i] season, then it is more than suitable for [i]being made 5x heavier for DH[/i]"

See Tracey Mosely setting the highest placed brit at the last World xc round at Dalby for another example.

Errr, no she wasn't, Annie Last was 14th @ 3 minutes, Maddie Horton 53rd, Tracey Moseley 69th, a lap down.

It's a different fitness. A top XC racing friend rode with Steve Peat, who was extremely open about his lack of XC type fitness and ability to ride up hill, he ate a lot of cakes too. I'm generally quicker than Tracey Moseley in XC races, and she's a hell of a lot quicker down hill!

Why would they be fast for 2 hours, not really a requirement of their sport!?

To clear up any ambiguity about this thread; I am not particularly a f1 fan.

timetrialling is the f1 of the bicycle world

I have no idea who he is, but I'm not *particularly* into seeing naked or semi-naked men, thanks.

*very*.....

Yeah, sure you aren't.......

[Tangent]

I find 4x far more exciting, yet it's been dropped from the UCI world cup series.

Just leafing back through the thread spotted the above, and Yep I agree, as a "Made for TV" MTB race format I don't think you could do much better than 4X there's an article on the UCI dropping 4X WC rounds in issue 17 of Wideopen I was reading the other day, essentially it gives the impression that 4X was dropped because the Yanks have lost interest in it and hence any really lucrative TV/Sponsors etc have dried up it all seems very Sad...
There will be a 4X World Champs still but really what's the point? Seems like a token gesture to a very young sport the UCi have done their best to kill off...
I have no doubt something will emerge but what and when who knows...
Actually talking of break away series here does DH1 stand at the minute? all seems to have gone a bit quiet lately...

[/Tangent]

because DH requires more testing and development of materials to ensure that the material is strong enough to survive the rigours of the race season, yet lightweight enough to be competetive. This will often lead to new technologies that then filter down to other disciplines.

OK, maybe DH doesn't lead the way in utilising new materials, but it certainly helps refine and improve the application of them.

What you on about downhill isnt even cycling.

Its falling off a cliff with style, but nothing to do with cycling.

XC is the WRC

Road is F1

XC is the WRC

I like to tease my DH friends that it's really just fat boys rolling down hills they can't climb.

But really it is one of the most testing environments in the bike world for the bike and the courage/toughness required from the riders is something I couldn't hope to match.

I'm not sure that the technical development that happens in DH benefits the rest of us though.

[i]You are arguing about DH and you don't know who Gee Atherton is? Please put this thread down and step away slowly as you have no right to be here[/i]

[checks forum rules] No, nothing in there about right not to be on a thread because you don't know who a person is. I'm not sure why you have to know who a person is in order to have an opinion on a sport? I wasn't expressing an opinion on Guy Atherton.

the point being that if you knew anything about DH racing, you would know who Gee Atherton is.

[i]if you knew anything about DH racing[/i]
I know it's about riding bicycles down a hill as fast as you can. Does that help? It seems from the name that that is fairly key to the 'sport'. Is there something more to it?

I have just Googled said person. 2010 World Champion. I don't know who the 2010 Darts world champion is, but I know that darts is about throwing darts at a board.

I loved following the DH WC last season and the champs was gripping. But probably enjoyed coverage of the WC 4X more. The head-to-head knockout format, and the fact you can see the whole of every race is brilliant TV. I particularly liked the rougher, multi-line tracks as this makes it more distinct from BMX. The mental and physical agility, bike skills and raw physical power on display are astonishing.

I made an effort to watch the procession that is XC racing but it is just trying to observe paint dry. I really enjoyed coverage of the TDF because it's more complete and so obviously tactical, less predictable - there is real drama.

downhill mountain biking. pretty sure bike is an abbreviation of bicycle. so it is cycling. TO do well at regional level you have to be pretty fit and skilled; national level even more so and finally world cup level. These people are professional athletes. If you could get down lets say ft william in 4minutes 30 seconds then maybe you are in the wrong job. I think I am reasonably fit and alright on a bike. Not got the exact time but 6 minutes or there about. BDS winners 5ish minutes. It is hard on body, mind and bike. It isn't similar to f1 though. Also Gee atherton raced a motorbike down ft william and beat it. For those that don't know (stevewhyte & andyp)

This will often lead to new technologies that then filter down to other disciplines.

Like...

The money isn't in DH, companies invest far more in their XC and road teams/bikes and those which they will sell more of!

I think with the popularity of Enduro you'll start to see quite a bit of investment in the Enduro stuff. And because of the slant towards DH in Enduro, I think a lot of the technology will filter through - see slacker head angles and better performing shocks, carbon AM rims and such.

The money isn't in DH, companies invest far more in their XC and road teams/bikes and those which they will sell more of!

I'm not doubting that's the case in Europe and maybe the US prior to Gwin winning everything this year. But in the UK? DH/Enduro seems to be much more popular than XC, as shown by the fact that most XC races aren't sold out and most Enduro's and DH's are. People (Privateers) seem to throw a lot more money at their bikes and kit in DH than they do in XC. Maybe because lower down the rankings you still need a pretty specific bike to race DH where as I see plenty of full susser trail bikes being used at Thetford.

To be fair, I don't think there's the money in MTB racing full stop compared to road.

I have just Googled said person. 2010 World Champion. I don't know who the 2010 Darts world champion is, but I know that darts is about throwing darts at a board.

I probably wouldn't trust your opinion on Darts either then...

Which as we all know has evolved into what many now consider to be the apex or if you like the "F1" of modern [I]throwing pointy items at a wall in a pub[/I] sports....

Many of the competitors are now professionals and on the cutting edge of Athleticism, some drink as little as 6 pints a night...

The equipment has evolved too, Space age fabrics are used to make shiney (Tent like) shirts covered in John Smiths logos which hide sweat patches for competitors, State of the art sovereign rings which actually aide aiming and consistent throws, and new Isotonic Sports Largers help them throw darts harder for longer...

I don't need to know anything about a sport to spout shite about it either...

Going back to 4X, I actually watched most of the DH rounds this year on Freecaster. I found it really interesting seeing the different riding styles and lines as the faster folk started coming through and really exciting when my favourite riders were up.

On paper 4X should be much more exciting but for some reason I just didn't care all that much. Something about it just didn't work for me, not sure why.

But in the UK? DH/Enduro seems to be much more popular than XC, as shown by the fact that most XC races aren't sold out and most Enduro's and DH's are.

Not too many UK based companies though are there, I'm talking about the big players. Entry numbers aren't necessarily reflective of popularity though, XC races can take 800+ racers, DH can't. Although I don't disagree with you on principle.

People (Privateers) seem to throw a lot more money at their bikes and kit in DH than they do in XC. Maybe because lower down the rankings you still need a pretty specific bike to race DH where as I see plenty of full susser trail bikes being used at Thetford.

Right, think about what you've said... a DH bike is no use for anything other than DH. You can use a trail bike (or XC race bike) for racing XC or just riding around. Hence why they are what manufacturers invest in.

I reckon alot of it comes back to "Grass roots" appeal, how exciting does a sport look Vs the cost and ease of getting into it...

4X I think Should be one of the best in terms of cost to access and get into, I mean what do you really need?
A small HT with a ~4" fork and 8 or 9 cogs at the back that can be had for under £500, a Full face helmet and some pads, another £80-£100 and your set... The perfect sport to get both kids and adults onto MTBs but saddly the UCi don't see it and I don't think it gets a big enough push still on a national level...

I think the problem DH suffers from is the perception of it as an expensive, hard to get into sport with lots of risk and danger involved, that's not necessarily the case. The image is all tied up with aspirational, expensive bikes with a limited purpose and, you can get up and running on a cheaper used bike ~£800 - £1k with about £100 getting you some reasonable FF Helmet/padding again...

XC again I think has started to suffer from the same general peception that you need lots of posh carbon kit and a proper training program to even consider entering a race, which isn't the case, but perception is still the problem, you can race on a £300 basic HT in a £30 lid if you want...

Enduro could fall into the same trap as DH, there's plenty of enthusiasm for it right now but thats coming from those already into MTBing, the danger is that another percieved version of Enduro grows up where you "Have" to have a £3k dandy-horse and an Enduro specific lid/Camelback/shorts etc, I think every effort should be made to attract the newer rider with a £500 HT and, a basic Lid who responds to a positive overall experience rather than needing to see expensive bikes and stoney faced, "Serious" racers... It should be the accesible next step on from having done a few trail centres.

Road racing, full of "MAMILs" and Juicers innit? So who cares

[i]I don't need to know anything about a sport to spout shite about it either...[/i]
Indeed. It would take a real spacker to try to claim otherwise.

XC is the WRC

Road is F1

In what way? F1 is better paid but ultimately useless, WRC sells cars to the masses but not so well paid?

Format wise WRC, enduro (on motor bikes) and enduro (on push bikes), and the tours (DTF, giro, vuletta, etc) are fairly similar, although the roadies tend to do it in a mass start for most stages. F1 is multi lap and mass start and international, that makes it CX (or WC road riding which no one cares about)!

XC must be the most boring of all of the cycling disciplines to watch. WRC is one of the most exciting motor sports. XC is a "race", WRC is a timed stage event. WRC drivers are at the very top of their game, XCers are often failed roadies. They're nothing alike. whatsoever.

i think people are taking the comparison too literally: The essence of the quote is that F1 develops alot of technology that eventually trickles down to cars that we drive everyday. In that sense DH very much has that effect, then again, so does road racing and cross-country racing.

XCers are often failed roadies

Really? Like who? Good XC racers often go to the road, it's where the money is, I can't think of any who fit your criteria!

Don't think motorsport analogies really hold water at all, why do people always feel the need to draw analogies to everything 😕

The essence of the quote is that F1 develops alot of technology that eventually trickles down to cars that we drive everyday. In that sense DH very much has that effect

Does it though? Like what? Few companies (and I'll concede long travel suspension forks, but then again are they really that much different to the mid-travel stuff, just scaled up a bit?) are investing the R&D in DH that you get that trickle down, it's just not really a lucrative enough sector of the market for the big companies. There are inevitably some, but I don't think current DH bikes are an indication of what folk will be riding in a few years.

Mmmm, Cadel Evans was an XC racer when I first saw him. Think he's gone on to something roadie in the last few years and done ok...

"Like what?"

pretty much every damping system design found in mtb forks and shocks
Soft compound tyres
platform clipless pedals
sticky rubber soles
lock-on grips
chain devices
9T sprockets
jack shaft drive systems
tubeless tyre systems
wide bars
short stems
slack head angles & anglesets
low BBs
many of the technologies found in braking systems
mudguards (motostyle fenders, RRP neoguards, muckynuts etc. were both common place at DH tracks before anyone thought to manufacture and sell them)
body armour/protection
to name but a few

loads of stuff used and raced on the DH race circuit never sees the light of day as a product to buy.

XC is the WRC
Road is F1

In what way? F1 is better paid but ultimately useless, WRC sells cars to the masses but not so well paid?

XC must be the most boring of all of the cycling disciplines to watch. WRC is one of the most exciting motor sports. XC is a "race", WRC is a timed stage event. WRC drivers are at the very top of their game, XCers are often failed roadies. They're nothing alike. whatsoever.

You use slicks in F1 and on the road
Knobblies on WRC and XC

You could find a hundred ways to say anything is like anything if you go that deep into it,

Essentially people class F1 as the leaders in technology. They are in some ways as they have developed a lot of new technologies but so have all the other motorsports in their own ways.

pretty much every damping system design found in mtb forks and shocks
Soft compound tyres -motorbiking
platform clipless pedals
sticky rubber soles -climbing
lock-on grips -speedway
chain devices
9T sprockets -road
jack shaft drive systems -motorbikes/cars
tubeless tyre systems -road/cars
wide bars -MX
short stems -MX
slack head angles & anglesets
low BBs
many of the technologies found in braking systems
mudguards (motostyle fenders, RRP neoguards, muckynuts etc. were both common place at DH tracks before anyone thought to manufacture and sell them)
body armour/protection -MX
to name but a few

Sorry, but DH tech is a mish mash of stuff stolen/appropriated from other sports.

No shit crikey? 🙄

I think the biggest area that DH has contributed to bike design is suspension: In DH you need the suspension to be plush and responsive to hits, but at the same time it needs to be extremely efficient as any energy lost in pedalling through the suspension action equates to lost time. Where races are decided by a fraction of a second, this becomes vital.

This is technology we now see filtering down into all aspects of mountain biking.

A very high strength to weight ratio is another requirement that DH brings to the industry.

Out of your list GW, I'd not call half of them technologies (wide bars etc...), platform damping systems as found on the majority of bikes (RP23 shocks etc) were generally not from DH - and I already conceded long travel suspension systems.

UST was the first MTB tubeless system, released on the Crossmax XC wheelset in 2001, DH was late to that party. Platform SPDs have existed for as long as SPDs, can't really attribute those to a competitive discipline. I'll echo what Crikey said otherwise!

Of course there are some things, but like I say, I don't think it's the hot bed of future technology we'll see in coming years on 'normal' bikes.

In DH you need the suspension to be plush

Yes, downhill & F1 are very similar. I've heard alot F1 drivers demanding plusher suspension.

Where races are decided by a fraction of a second, this becomes vital.

This applies to any form of cycle racing though. The equipment could make the difference. You could say the suspension makes more of a difference in an XC race though, due to the fact they're longer.

At the end of the day, the best rider wins. All the fancy "technology" is just the perfect by product and enables manufacturers to sell more "stuff" to the bike buying public.

@ Davidtaylforth: Are you being deliberately stupid or does it just come naturally? At no point did I say that F1 has plush suspension, it was a reference to the way technology trickles down to other areas of the sport.

Are you being deliberately stupid or does it just come naturally?

Well are you? Perhaps I should have added the smilies to my post.

Youve taken it completely out of context.. But id agree that it is the f1 of the cyling world?

Anyone see the new sc vid on the the new v10 testing session? case closed.

Anyone see the new sc vid on the the new v10 testing session? case closed

I saw a bit of it, it was ****ing dull. Just like F1

What's meant by the comparison - is it to say F1 is the vanguard of technological advancement that trickles down to the mass market?

There is properly more technology on your average road car than a f 1 car back in the day when I worked for Benetton f1 we had lots of toys on the car, 93 launch control traction control, active suspension , 4 wheel steer , abs etc I could go on but ,
Now all this tech was actualy out there in road cars our first abs system was off a BMW road car,

Today with the rules there is none of this , ok the car is developed to the nth degree within the rules

Ok just edited this twin clutch gearboxes, is the exception to what I have just written but if you believe clarkson they are crap on the road

I can't think of anything developed in the f1 field that is now found on a modern road car,

Now we get to bikes , I would say it,s harder to design a great fs xc bike than it is to design a great dh bike

Ooh that's going to upset a few

OMG Njee you really don't know shit about the history of mtb technology :'(

look up "nagasti " and "curnurt"

Nagasti appears to be a military outpost in India, and curnurt is a mis spelling. Raise your game laddie..

Ok going from 'Downhill is for fat lazy people who dont have any fitness,

I switched from XC to DH in 2011 after a full season of XC in 2010 from XC Enduros (Whinlatter Challnege etc) XC Marathon's (TransWales 7 Day) to DH races at Pearce and Caersws to name a few by far the hardest was the DH not just skill level but fitness.

2mins down a DH track and i was more out of breath nd felt that i had woked every muscle in my body than doing a long XC race. Upper body is key as well as pedalling which is not as easy as you first think on a DH bike.

So all you arm chain keyboard non DH warriors out there i would pay money (not very much mind you) to watch you try and then say 'that was easy'

Now onto the DH/F1 thing, i enjoy watching both depending on track and weather. Dry track on a boring track = Boring, Wet track on a fun track = fun SIMPLES.

Must say though some stuff on here is utter garbage, too many keyboard warriors here and not even worth talking to, got better things to do than argue with someone who will just 'never' get it.

[b]Of course there are some things, but ike I say, I don't think it's the hot bed of future technology we'll see in coming years on 'normal' bikes[/b]
Ha ha... Many or today's "all mountain " bikes are practically identical in geometry and technology to the DH bikes of the late 90s, just 20lb lighter

Late 90's GT LTS DH and STS DH? nope don't recognise them today? Voullioz Cap D'Ail run on spds, Wasn't Tomac running Skin suits because it was faster, Banned by the RIDERS!! ffs.

DH is DH but it is a technical dead end, DH suspension doesn't have to worry about pedalling anything like as much as any bike designed to be ridden up hill, and as one of the minor details of most cycle sports is the ability to ride the bike uphill.... I am not saying that nothing will ever come from DH, but the reality is most stuff has already been designed somewhere, it might be 50-60 years ago, just a case of someone rehashing it.

Stuff is developed for use in DH, it's not developed from DH to use elsewhere.
It's a great sport, it's good to watch, but it is a technical dead end.

Late 90's GT LTS DH and STS DH? nope don't recognise them today?

ha ha...

I take it you don't remember the geometry and amount of travel those had either?

Stuff is developed for use in DH, it's not developed from DH to use elsewhere.

2 horst link 4 bars? are you sure?

Horst Links, where have i heard of those? oh yes

the Specialized FSR, Amp Research, etc.

[img] [/img]

really looks like a DH bike doesn't it? see the AMP disc brakes there as well?

Downhill develops the bikes, but it does not go anywhere from there.

[i]WTF are you on about?[/i]

Ask your mum to read it out to you. Slowly.