[Closed] downhill is the f1 of our industry....

This will often lead to new technologies that then filter down to other disciplines.

Like...

The money isn't in DH, companies invest far more in their XC and road teams/bikes and those which they will sell more of!

I think with the popularity of Enduro you'll start to see quite a bit of investment in the Enduro stuff. And because of the slant towards DH in Enduro, I think a lot of the technology will filter through - see slacker head angles and better performing shocks, carbon AM rims and such.

The money isn't in DH, companies invest far more in their XC and road teams/bikes and those which they will sell more of!

I'm not doubting that's the case in Europe and maybe the US prior to Gwin winning everything this year. But in the UK? DH/Enduro seems to be much more popular than XC, as shown by the fact that most XC races aren't sold out and most Enduro's and DH's are. People (Privateers) seem to throw a lot more money at their bikes and kit in DH than they do in XC. Maybe because lower down the rankings you still need a pretty specific bike to race DH where as I see plenty of full susser trail bikes being used at Thetford.

To be fair, I don't think there's the money in MTB racing full stop compared to road.

I have just Googled said person. 2010 World Champion. I don't know who the 2010 Darts world champion is, but I know that darts is about throwing darts at a board.

I probably wouldn't trust your opinion on Darts either then...

Which as we all know has evolved into what many now consider to be the apex or if you like the "F1" of modern [I]throwing pointy items at a wall in a pub[/I] sports....

Many of the competitors are now professionals and on the cutting edge of Athleticism, some drink as little as 6 pints a night...

The equipment has evolved too, Space age fabrics are used to make shiney (Tent like) shirts covered in John Smiths logos which hide sweat patches for competitors, State of the art sovereign rings which actually aide aiming and consistent throws, and new Isotonic Sports Largers help them throw darts harder for longer...

I don't need to know anything about a sport to spout shite about it either...

Going back to 4X, I actually watched most of the DH rounds this year on Freecaster. I found it really interesting seeing the different riding styles and lines as the faster folk started coming through and really exciting when my favourite riders were up.

On paper 4X should be much more exciting but for some reason I just didn't care all that much. Something about it just didn't work for me, not sure why.

But in the UK? DH/Enduro seems to be much more popular than XC, as shown by the fact that most XC races aren't sold out and most Enduro's and DH's are.

Not too many UK based companies though are there, I'm talking about the big players. Entry numbers aren't necessarily reflective of popularity though, XC races can take 800+ racers, DH can't. Although I don't disagree with you on principle.

People (Privateers) seem to throw a lot more money at their bikes and kit in DH than they do in XC. Maybe because lower down the rankings you still need a pretty specific bike to race DH where as I see plenty of full susser trail bikes being used at Thetford.

Right, think about what you've said... a DH bike is no use for anything other than DH. You can use a trail bike (or XC race bike) for racing XC or just riding around. Hence why they are what manufacturers invest in.

I reckon alot of it comes back to "Grass roots" appeal, how exciting does a sport look Vs the cost and ease of getting into it...

4X I think Should be one of the best in terms of cost to access and get into, I mean what do you really need?
A small HT with a ~4" fork and 8 or 9 cogs at the back that can be had for under £500, a Full face helmet and some pads, another £80-£100 and your set... The perfect sport to get both kids and adults onto MTBs but saddly the UCi don't see it and I don't think it gets a big enough push still on a national level...

I think the problem DH suffers from is the perception of it as an expensive, hard to get into sport with lots of risk and danger involved, that's not necessarily the case. The image is all tied up with aspirational, expensive bikes with a limited purpose and, you can get up and running on a cheaper used bike ~£800 - £1k with about £100 getting you some reasonable FF Helmet/padding again...

XC again I think has started to suffer from the same general peception that you need lots of posh carbon kit and a proper training program to even consider entering a race, which isn't the case, but perception is still the problem, you can race on a £300 basic HT in a £30 lid if you want...

Enduro could fall into the same trap as DH, there's plenty of enthusiasm for it right now but thats coming from those already into MTBing, the danger is that another percieved version of Enduro grows up where you "Have" to have a £3k dandy-horse and an Enduro specific lid/Camelback/shorts etc, I think every effort should be made to attract the newer rider with a £500 HT and, a basic Lid who responds to a positive overall experience rather than needing to see expensive bikes and stoney faced, "Serious" racers... It should be the accesible next step on from having done a few trail centres.

Road racing, full of "MAMILs" and Juicers innit? So who cares

[i]I don't need to know anything about a sport to spout shite about it either...[/i]
Indeed. It would take a real spacker to try to claim otherwise.

XC is the WRC

Road is F1

In what way? F1 is better paid but ultimately useless, WRC sells cars to the masses but not so well paid?

Format wise WRC, enduro (on motor bikes) and enduro (on push bikes), and the tours (DTF, giro, vuletta, etc) are fairly similar, although the roadies tend to do it in a mass start for most stages. F1 is multi lap and mass start and international, that makes it CX (or WC road riding which no one cares about)!

XC must be the most boring of all of the cycling disciplines to watch. WRC is one of the most exciting motor sports. XC is a "race", WRC is a timed stage event. WRC drivers are at the very top of their game, XCers are often failed roadies. They're nothing alike. whatsoever.

i think people are taking the comparison too literally: The essence of the quote is that F1 develops alot of technology that eventually trickles down to cars that we drive everyday. In that sense DH very much has that effect, then again, so does road racing and cross-country racing.

XCers are often failed roadies

Really? Like who? Good XC racers often go to the road, it's where the money is, I can't think of any who fit your criteria!

Don't think motorsport analogies really hold water at all, why do people always feel the need to draw analogies to everything 😕

The essence of the quote is that F1 develops alot of technology that eventually trickles down to cars that we drive everyday. In that sense DH very much has that effect

Does it though? Like what? Few companies (and I'll concede long travel suspension forks, but then again are they really that much different to the mid-travel stuff, just scaled up a bit?) are investing the R&D in DH that you get that trickle down, it's just not really a lucrative enough sector of the market for the big companies. There are inevitably some, but I don't think current DH bikes are an indication of what folk will be riding in a few years.

Mmmm, Cadel Evans was an XC racer when I first saw him. Think he's gone on to something roadie in the last few years and done ok...

"Like what?"

pretty much every damping system design found in mtb forks and shocks
Soft compound tyres
platform clipless pedals
sticky rubber soles
lock-on grips
chain devices
9T sprockets
jack shaft drive systems
tubeless tyre systems
wide bars
short stems
slack head angles & anglesets
low BBs
many of the technologies found in braking systems
mudguards (motostyle fenders, RRP neoguards, muckynuts etc. were both common place at DH tracks before anyone thought to manufacture and sell them)
body armour/protection
to name but a few

loads of stuff used and raced on the DH race circuit never sees the light of day as a product to buy.

XC is the WRC
Road is F1

In what way? F1 is better paid but ultimately useless, WRC sells cars to the masses but not so well paid?

XC must be the most boring of all of the cycling disciplines to watch. WRC is one of the most exciting motor sports. XC is a "race", WRC is a timed stage event. WRC drivers are at the very top of their game, XCers are often failed roadies. They're nothing alike. whatsoever.

You use slicks in F1 and on the road
Knobblies on WRC and XC

You could find a hundred ways to say anything is like anything if you go that deep into it,

Essentially people class F1 as the leaders in technology. They are in some ways as they have developed a lot of new technologies but so have all the other motorsports in their own ways.

pretty much every damping system design found in mtb forks and shocks
Soft compound tyres -motorbiking
platform clipless pedals
sticky rubber soles -climbing
lock-on grips -speedway
chain devices
9T sprockets -road
jack shaft drive systems -motorbikes/cars
tubeless tyre systems -road/cars
wide bars -MX
short stems -MX
slack head angles & anglesets
low BBs
many of the technologies found in braking systems
mudguards (motostyle fenders, RRP neoguards, muckynuts etc. were both common place at DH tracks before anyone thought to manufacture and sell them)
body armour/protection -MX
to name but a few

Sorry, but DH tech is a mish mash of stuff stolen/appropriated from other sports.

No shit crikey? 🙄

I think the biggest area that DH has contributed to bike design is suspension: In DH you need the suspension to be plush and responsive to hits, but at the same time it needs to be extremely efficient as any energy lost in pedalling through the suspension action equates to lost time. Where races are decided by a fraction of a second, this becomes vital.

This is technology we now see filtering down into all aspects of mountain biking.

A very high strength to weight ratio is another requirement that DH brings to the industry.

Out of your list GW, I'd not call half of them technologies (wide bars etc...), platform damping systems as found on the majority of bikes (RP23 shocks etc) were generally not from DH - and I already conceded long travel suspension systems.

UST was the first MTB tubeless system, released on the Crossmax XC wheelset in 2001, DH was late to that party. Platform SPDs have existed for as long as SPDs, can't really attribute those to a competitive discipline. I'll echo what Crikey said otherwise!

Of course there are some things, but like I say, I don't think it's the hot bed of future technology we'll see in coming years on 'normal' bikes.

In DH you need the suspension to be plush

Yes, downhill & F1 are very similar. I've heard alot F1 drivers demanding plusher suspension.

Where races are decided by a fraction of a second, this becomes vital.

This applies to any form of cycle racing though. The equipment could make the difference. You could say the suspension makes more of a difference in an XC race though, due to the fact they're longer.

At the end of the day, the best rider wins. All the fancy "technology" is just the perfect by product and enables manufacturers to sell more "stuff" to the bike buying public.

@ Davidtaylforth: Are you being deliberately stupid or does it just come naturally? At no point did I say that F1 has plush suspension, it was a reference to the way technology trickles down to other areas of the sport.

Are you being deliberately stupid or does it just come naturally?

Well are you? Perhaps I should have added the smilies to my post.

Youve taken it completely out of context.. But id agree that it is the f1 of the cyling world?

Anyone see the new sc vid on the the new v10 testing session? case closed.

Anyone see the new sc vid on the the new v10 testing session? case closed

I saw a bit of it, it was ****ing dull. Just like F1

What's meant by the comparison - is it to say F1 is the vanguard of technological advancement that trickles down to the mass market?

There is properly more technology on your average road car than a f 1 car back in the day when I worked for Benetton f1 we had lots of toys on the car, 93 launch control traction control, active suspension , 4 wheel steer , abs etc I could go on but ,
Now all this tech was actualy out there in road cars our first abs system was off a BMW road car,

Today with the rules there is none of this , ok the car is developed to the nth degree within the rules

Ok just edited this twin clutch gearboxes, is the exception to what I have just written but if you believe clarkson they are crap on the road

I can't think of anything developed in the f1 field that is now found on a modern road car,

Now we get to bikes , I would say it,s harder to design a great fs xc bike than it is to design a great dh bike

Ooh that's going to upset a few

OMG Njee you really don't know shit about the history of mtb technology :'(

look up "nagasti " and "curnurt"

Nagasti appears to be a military outpost in India, and curnurt is a mis spelling. Raise your game laddie..

Ok going from 'Downhill is for fat lazy people who dont have any fitness,

I switched from XC to DH in 2011 after a full season of XC in 2010 from XC Enduros (Whinlatter Challnege etc) XC Marathon's (TransWales 7 Day) to DH races at Pearce and Caersws to name a few by far the hardest was the DH not just skill level but fitness.

2mins down a DH track and i was more out of breath nd felt that i had woked every muscle in my body than doing a long XC race. Upper body is key as well as pedalling which is not as easy as you first think on a DH bike.

So all you arm chain keyboard non DH warriors out there i would pay money (not very much mind you) to watch you try and then say 'that was easy'

Now onto the DH/F1 thing, i enjoy watching both depending on track and weather. Dry track on a boring track = Boring, Wet track on a fun track = fun SIMPLES.

Must say though some stuff on here is utter garbage, too many keyboard warriors here and not even worth talking to, got better things to do than argue with someone who will just 'never' get it.

[b]Of course there are some things, but ike I say, I don't think it's the hot bed of future technology we'll see in coming years on 'normal' bikes[/b]
Ha ha... Many or today's "all mountain " bikes are practically identical in geometry and technology to the DH bikes of the late 90s, just 20lb lighter

Late 90's GT LTS DH and STS DH? nope don't recognise them today? Voullioz Cap D'Ail run on spds, Wasn't Tomac running Skin suits because it was faster, Banned by the RIDERS!! ffs.

DH is DH but it is a technical dead end, DH suspension doesn't have to worry about pedalling anything like as much as any bike designed to be ridden up hill, and as one of the minor details of most cycle sports is the ability to ride the bike uphill.... I am not saying that nothing will ever come from DH, but the reality is most stuff has already been designed somewhere, it might be 50-60 years ago, just a case of someone rehashing it.

Stuff is developed for use in DH, it's not developed from DH to use elsewhere.
It's a great sport, it's good to watch, but it is a technical dead end.

Late 90's GT LTS DH and STS DH? nope don't recognise them today?

ha ha...

I take it you don't remember the geometry and amount of travel those had either?

Stuff is developed for use in DH, it's not developed from DH to use elsewhere.

2 horst link 4 bars? are you sure?

Horst Links, where have i heard of those? oh yes

the Specialized FSR, Amp Research, etc.

[img] [/img]

really looks like a DH bike doesn't it? see the AMP disc brakes there as well?

Downhill develops the bikes, but it does not go anywhere from there.

[i]WTF are you on about?[/i]

Ask your mum to read it out to you. Slowly.

mrmo - funnily enough both Amps and spesh FSRs were raced DH back then

crikey

Sorry, but DH tech is a mish mash of stuff stolen/appropriated from other sports.

Yes, whatever.

mrmo - funnily enough both Amps and spesh FSRs were raced DH back then

yep, i will agree that, but then they were mtbs they weren't DH bikes, your getting to a point when you turned up to a race on friday did the dh one day and the XC the next. I seem to remember that steve peat was winning DH races on a rigid/front sus Kona hard tail with Conti XC 1.5s?

The first MTBs that were more about DH than anything else were probably Sintesi and Foes, could still take front mechs, Mountain Cycles San Andreas been around a long time but as a general purpose bike. the first Full sus i had the (mis)fortune to ride was a Cannondale EST in 1991?, fundamentally not much has changed since then, tweaked so they work but that is about it.

Actually the first bikes that were about DH more than anything else were the bikes used by the Klunkerz. It was only after a while, when they got fed up with having to get lifts up to the top, did they start adding gears and reducing the eight of their bikes so they could pedal up to the top.

if it is strong enough to survive a XC season, then it is more than suitable for being made 5x heavier for DH

If it's light enough to satisfy a pro DH weight weenie, I hope to hell they beef up the ones they sell to the public.

"XC must be the most boring of all of the cycling disciplines to watch"

I have no doubt about the skill and fitness of the riders. But in the races I've watched on Freecaster, the favourites soon get to the front and then precess in the same order until the finish, with only the gaps varying a bit. There are no noticeable attacks, few crashes, no overtaking or team tactics (perhaps because drafting doesn't work). It also doesn't help that the cameras can't cover the course adequately (similar issues with DH to be fair). Consequently it lacks the drama that makes sport interesting to watch.

[this is a complaint from someone who enjoys cricket!]

I agree that XC is inherently uninteresting to watch, and I compete. Not really the point though is it? I don't think DH is much better (but it is better).

I'm not sure what the point of comparing F1 to cycling is. I find F1 dull, I like watching cycling whatever the genre. On the flip side, I find moto-x on the outdoor tracks dull, yet find Supercross exciting. All horses for courses.

However, if we're comparing the technology aspect of the two, then I think there are some similarities. The Sunn Chipie team with Nico used to use telemetry to monitor suspension performance back in the late 90's. I think at the time the Sunn Radical was pretty much a team only bike so it wasn't like it was intended to filter down to Joe Public. Similarly I think there's probably a lot of stuff in F1 that's done just because it makes the F1 car quicker, not because they have an eye on it filtering down to consumer vehicles.

On the flip side, TT bikes and some aero road bikes are wind tunnel tested for speed, just like an F1 car. You don't get that in DH, or at least nothing that teams would talk about.

Are F1 and DH the pinnacle of technology for their 'sport'? F1 yes, DH probably not. Is there a lot of testing/technology in DH compared to say XC? Yes, in some instances (suspension), no in others (frame composition).

I still want an RN-01....

Except Trek World Racing did do some wind tunnel aero part testing specifically for information to use in DH racing 😐