[Closed] Don't hold your breath for a Turner eBike then - Dave lets rip on Pinkbike

Shame. Mrs NBT loves her turner flux but due to injuries it's entirely possible her next bike will be an e-bike. Just not a Turner 🙁

A bit ranty 🙂 but fair point about public access..not sure the bicycle industry is floundering though, at least not the retail side.

The real problems are US land access laws. Much less ranting happening over in Europe. Based on their attitude you'd think that North America was more densely populated than The Netherlands!

I've commented before that I don't think that discussion of the US access debate is particularly helpful or in any way relevant to the UK, it's comparing chalk with oranges, particularly concerning wilderness and the wildly different concepts of what National Parks are.

In much the same ilk, I don't think that US vs UK E-bike debate carries any great relevance, the regulation of what constitutes an e-bike versus an electric motorbike, and where they can be used is so completely different that few parallels can be drawn.

So sorry to offend you, but really WHO is going to buy a MORB? Lazy riders not wanting to squeeze in a couple more rides per week to get their fat asses stronger to hang with their best buds, just more people looking to make excuses for their lifestyle and fix it with a credit card instead of take responsibility and either ride more/eat less or if one is getting old and 'crepid, ride the same amount of TIME and accept we will ride less distance. At the very end it's all about the time we had on the bike, not mileage. Enjoy the time away from work/stress/concrete jungle whatever.

[img] #0-grid1[/img]

Is he suggesting that bicycles will eventually get banned from English bridleways because of Ebikes? can't see that happening or how it will be enforced.

Oh dear, another eBikes thread begins...

Nice rant, don't agree with all of it, but see where he's coming from.

Here follows "why do you HATE us?" "but I'm permanently injured" "ebikes don't do any more damage than normal" etc etc etc

He's not quite talking about our lawful e-bikes though - 250W and 14.5mph pedelec.

Derestricted, and unlwaful, e-bikes over here though have the potential to cause a lot of local friction.

I have 3 turbo Levos and honestly have a lot of fun on one it's a different kind of fun to the carbon full Susser the revelation however wasn't the motor , it was athe sheer stability of the thing when it points downhill which actually made the motor useless for anything other than going up

We did however build a bike frame for a guy who imported some rear wheel hub and a big battery it does 0-60 in less than 2 seconds and top whack was 80 he was saying ......now that I can see as being a bit of an issue but hey I think they organise races round a track

I agree Kie, virtually no relevance at all to the UK access situation.

But a magnificent rant.

Derestricted, and unlwaful, e-bikes over here though have the potential to cause a lot of local friction.

Is this a real problem in the UK, and I'm just riding the wrong (or right!) trails?

Shandy - Member
It's True

One of the most depressing thing's I've seen on the trails is families on e-bikes with fat kids.

Kid on e-bike keeping up with XC-racer dad I could understand. But buying yourself an e-bike because you're slow and your kid one so he can keep up with your lazy ass (or vice versa) is just sad.

It's a friends 'retirement' do from our sailing class next month, he's 70-something-and-a-bit and has finally decided that high-performance dinghies aren't going to work for him any longer. I don't expect to see him racing round the cans on a jet-ski in November though. OTOH, I quite like the frisson of excitement on hearing that WCA has bought himself a bike that he can have world class accidents even faster.

I hear a lot about this, but I'm yet to see one on the trail. I've seen a few (a very, very few) eBikes, but I'm pretty sure none of them have been modified.

Step 1) remove magnet from rear wheel spoke (or speed sensor form chainstay).
Step 2) go faster.

Is this a real problem in the UK, and I'm just riding the wrong (or right!) trails?

I see 4 or 5 up ladybower regularly not the bonkers ones that people build themselves if memory serves 5-7kw motors drink the battery so maybe it's a range thing and once they have finished razzing em up and down the street they don't have anything left to get trailside , there's a Facebook group for building them but it's more US based than uk it's getting a big following though from what I wAs reading

Kid on e-bike keeping up with XC-racer dad I could understand. But buying yourself an e-bike because you're slow and your kid one so he can keep up with your lazy ass (or vice versa) is just sad.

On the other side, my 8yo is now so bloody fit that I can barely keep up with him on the hills when he's on the road bike. I think I might have created a monster...!

Step 1) remove magnet from rear wheel spoke (or speed sensor form chainstay).
Step 2) go faster.

Derestricted, and unlwaful, e-bikes over here though have the potential to cause a lot of local friction.

Is this a real problem in the UK, and I'm just riding the wrong (or right!) trails?

What happens then? Organised groups (walkers, landowners etc) lobbying law makers vs unorganised mountain bikers writing shite on a forum. Who do you think is going to win? Do you think they will just ban the idiots, or just ban ebikes or will it be easier/just excuse people looking for to ban all bikes?

I saw quite a few in Weymouth over the last 5 days. One very cool looking e-Fatbike could have quite tempted me.

Is he suggesting that bicycles will eventually get banned from English bridleways because of Ebikes? can't see that happening or how it will be enforced.

Derestricted, and unlwaful, e-bikes over here though have the potential to cause a lot of local friction.

I don't think E-bike's will get us banned from bridleways, that's just being over dramatic. Even the disorganised lobbying of MTB groups would prevent that.

What might be an issue is more local stuff, with a proliferation of targeted bans like is currently in place on Snowdon. Riding any given pass in the Lake district for example currently takes a good couple of hours up and down and requires a degree of fitness and/or suffering to get to the top. Not hard to envisage what used to be a quiet out of the way bridleway (Garburn Pass?) which was previously quiet due to the effort involved (it's not a great return on the climbing investment) becoming a lot busier with people basically using it as an uplifted DH trail.

Equally they could be the last nail in the coffin / straw on the camel, that brings a crackdown in already contentious areas which aren't RoW's (as Dave turner said). Surrey Hills, Hampshire/Berkshire/Surrey army ranges, etc. They're all one two fingered motorised salute to the wrong landowner away from a complete ban.

Land access in some US states is a big issue - you can't even ride a normal bike in some wilderness areas whilst foot and horse access is allowed. Ebikes are therefore seen as a further threat.

There's a group of them that go out from my local shop one evening to ride the trails across the Aldershot ranges - the extra weight of the bikes and riders has done a good job of flattening down the loose, flinty tracks that they'd never get up on a regular MTB.

Ref E-bikes being a threat to access in the UK, my opinion is that this is this is navel gazing

When I sit down with the grown ups at major user organisations the whole E-bike thing isn't even on the radar. News everyone - the cyclists threatening the future of improved access are the small minority who are already out there riding like dicks on normal bikes.

If the UK adopted the 'in-between' class of speed-pedelec as seen in sime Euro countries then there might be an issue, but at the moment that doesn't look likely since the implications on the pedelec market of the Vnuk insurance decision are still not fully played out.

Regards derestricted bikes, the first prosecution of a shop selling them, or dongles, by trading standards will put paid to that, and I suspect that it will happen soon.

Having picked a couple up, I'd love to see someone hike a bike up Nan Bield or similar with one 😀

they could be the last nail in the coffin / straw on the camel, that brings a crackdown in already contentious areas which aren't RoW's (as Dave turner said). Surrey Hills, Hampshire/Berkshire/Surrey army ranges, etc. They're all one two fingered motorised salute to the wrong landowner away from a complete ban.

the whole E-bike thing isn't even on the radar.

Completely one sided argument from a has-been manufacturer. Most other companies are working to make Ebikes more user friendly and legal and within limits to keep them classed as bikes and not motorcycles. I have a Levo, and I'm none of the aboved mentioned i.e., fat , lazy , unfit, credit card warrior looking to smoke my mates. I have one because it's a blast to ride and that's the end of it. As for the controversies that will soon come from all shared access , you don't have to be on an Ebike to blast down bridleways with walkers coming up. See it all to often up the Peaks, everyone thinks they have the right to the trail. A nob will be a nob whether on a ebike or not. Having read that article, I'm gonna have a grin on my face whenever I pass a 'turner' whether on my ebike or normal. #itsthefuture!

I'm gonna have a grin on my face whenever I pass a 'turner' whether on my ebike or normal

Bring it on. 🙂

Owning 4 Turners currently and countless other previous models (and friends who have had Czars) - I wish DT would just settle down get his bikes/CS sorted again rather than these rants. I have two friends who have had issues with warranties on their Czars, and obtaining help from Turner. Can't get parts and ignoring emails is not what we signed up for.

My brand of choice but I wish things were a bit better for us in the UK.

Completely one sided argument from a has-been manufacturer. Most other companies are working to make Ebikes more user friendly and legal and within limits to keep them classed as bikes and not motorcycles. I have a Levo, and I'm none of the aboved mentioned i.e., fat , lazy , unfit, credit card warrior looking to smoke my mates. I have one because it's a blast to ride and that's the end of it.

A normal bike is a blast to ride, however you phrase it you've just bought a motorised bike to ride faster/further.

As for the controversies that will soon come from all shared access , you don't have to be on an Ebike to blast down bridleways with walkers coming up. See it all to often up the Peaks, everyone thinks they have the right to the trail. A nob will be a nob whether on a ebike or not. Having read that article, I'm gonna have a grin on my face whenever I pass a 'turner' whether on my ebike or normal. #itsthefuture!

The point/problem is E-bikes are going to be faster, either uphill or because they allow bikes like the Levo to be ridden to more places. Without a motor plenty of places needed either a very efficient short travel bike to get there and up the hill or a lot of fitness, which naturally limited the number of riders and kept their speeds down on the descents.

If one rider is too fast and no one is around to see it is he still a dick? E-bikes will just increase the number of riders and the chances of conflicts as a result.

Say an average weekend warrior could do a 20mile loop from Hope in the Peak, and rides a 120mm trail bike. A Levo could do 40miles and has 160mm of travel. It's got the potential to double the traffic on the trails whilst simultaneously upping the speeds.

'Thisisnotaspoon', surely the same argument can be said that because your bike now has 160/170mm travel your able to go down descents which would previously be unridable on a smaller travelled bike. I just feel Ebikes are another progression in cycling. Yes I can conflicts rising but they would arise anyway. More people using any area is going to cause issues, whether on an ebike or normal bike. Would you like limits on the amount of riders using the Peaks at any one time? Or trail centre? Or public place?. I admit that before I rode an ebike, I was dead against them, like the biased Mr Turner, I thought they were for disabled fat lazy cheats. I was wrong , swallowed my humble pie and brought one. Best fun every. Yes they are faster , but what's not to like about that?? I still put as much effort into a ride and get as much enjoyment from it.

Good for him.

I'm pleased they exist, I'll be old one day, I might get injured one day - they could keep me in the saddle a decade longer than a non-powered bike could.

They're taking the piss now though, they're making more and more aggressive machines, Endruo E-Bikes, do me a favour, how tiny is the market for people who are fit and able enough to race an Enduro, but aren't fit and able enough to do the pedalling up bit must be tiny, you could probably fit them all in the same phonebox - but it's a 'growing market' nah, 99.9% of themwill be people who'd rather not do the hard/boring bit - if you want thrills without the effort, try Alton Towers or get an Xbox.

A Levo could do 40miles and has [s]160mm[/s] 130mmF 135mmR of travel.

Ftfy.

As for further comment CBA until all the usual arguments are presented by people who haven't ridden one, and are being wilfully ignorant. Usually happens around the 4th page

they're making more and more aggressive machines, Endruo E-Bikes

can you actually race one of these? at an enduro or would the non racing version just be a longer travel e bike

I don't think the trail access thing is remotely a problem yet in the UK.
I sort of agree with his other points though.

He says it's not about disabled people, but where does he stand with someone like Martyn Ashton riding one?

Clearly it's a last resort for Martyn Ashton, and if this technology enables him to continue ripping up the trails, then who cares what Dave has to say on the matter.

joeydeacon - Member
He says it's not about disabled people, but where does he stand with someone like Martyn Ashton riding one?

It does irk a little when you're struggling up a climb on a trail centre, perhaps a little technical incline over some rocks. You a bike coming up behind you and you pull aside to let them pass and a guy comes flying past on an Ebike and then 4 more of the buggers come right behind him. [img] [/img]
Nehhhhh buggers

I would like a go though. 😉

Technically, what Martin Ashton rides isn't an (legal) ebike, as it works without the pedals/cranks having to be turned. In the eyes of the law it's a motorbike.

I don't think the trail access thing is remotely a problem yet in the UK

not yet but it will come. some **** will run over a walker on a chipped bike and shit will meet the fan.

can you actually race one of these? at an enduro or would the non racing version just be a longer travel e bike

There's a class for them at some events, Neil Donoghue raced one.

Even forgetting the racing side, I still maintain that there could only be a tiny amount of people who are fit and able enough to ride the descents on a red/black TC trail, but are unable to make the climbs, there isn't enough of them to create enough demand to make a bike, the market is for people to lazy to do it, for the people who 'need' them, it's an accidental benefit, once the lazy are catered, marketing will seek to push it as a norm to sell more, left unchecked in 5 years we could be talking about non-e-bikes like we talk about 26" wheeled bikes.

but that's not what the bike industry seems to be gambling on with e-MTBs, is it?

Sitting down with people from Natural England & DEFRA, AONB's etc, they are most definitely looking at E-bikes as an opportunity to encourage currently less-active people out into the countryside, making people more active has huge public health benefits, along with extending the age profile of where people's health and activity drops off and recent studies about issues like the benefits of countryside access for wellbeing and mental health. IMO that engagement shoots down a lot of the scaremongering.

Regards the bike trade, well, don't ever confuse the advertising with the sales profile - they know damn well that the chief sales profile is 'middle aged plus', and things like the recent cycling uk/open MTB off-road survey supported that a lot of riders are very much looking at e-bikes with an eye of 'not right now, but when I'm a bit older'

"Not right now, maybe when I'm older.......or when I get a go on one!"
Not that it completely follows suit, but the whole diesel /petrol vs electric car, with all the steam and publicity that's getting plus the backing from the government and international bodies, it's no surprise the bike industry is looking into piggybacking off that technology. End of the day, Ebikes will be more appealing to a range of customers and that's what drives the world.....£££s. I'm afraid the purists will have to sit at the back of the class and shout abuse from the sidelines! As for the OP, relating to Turner knocking them, I'd like to know what he'd do if someone said 'produce an ebike and your sales will double", would he be of the same opinion??

I'm afraid the purists will have to sit at the back of the class and shout abuse from the sidelines!

Would those be mountainbikers or E-bikers?

The argument is awfully similar to powerboat access in the Lake district as the last few lakes banned* them, where power boaters jumped up and down telling everyone that it motors were banned if would be the end of tourism, that motorboats gave everyone access to the water, that everyone who sails/rows/paddles/swims should get with the 19th century, etc etc.

Motors got banned, the tourist apocalypse didn't happen and everyone went back to their quiet enjoyment of the Lakes.

*not actually banned, just speeds restricted to the same speeds as everyone else, which apparently isn't fun.

Not MTB related but I participated in a roadie (sorry) sportive on Dartmoor recently and there was a dude on a eMTB with a race number at the start. I did a double take, he was overweight but with no separate category couldn't understand why he was allowed to start?
Weird.

couldn't understand why he was allowed to start?

I guess, as a sportive and not a race, there is no competitive advantage. Makes it easier for the individual, but shouldn't fuss anyone else unless you are one of those secret sportive racers who would get cross because some of the other riders were quicker than them. He had a participant number, not a race number.

I guess, I do see e-bikes as a thing on their own and not cycling as I think of it, but in a sportive who cares.

Not MTB related but I participated in a roadie (sorry) sportive on Dartmoor recently and there was a dude on a eMTB with a race number at the start. I did a double take, he was overweight but with no separate category couldn't understand why he was allowed to start?

Why not? It's a sportive not a race. It's also unlikely an eMTB is going to keep up with a moderately fit road chain gang anyway. At least not after 40 odd miles on Dartmoor.

I've definitely seen several Illegal/ chipped ones locally (peak district). I was going down potato alley a couple of weeks ago and there was a couple of youngish lads coming UP it at about 20 mph!

Not being arsey here, but can you honestly tell the difference between 15.5 and 20mph when a bike is coming toward you, whilst you are riding towards them?

What speed were you going down it?

thisisnotaspoon - Member

One of the most depressing thing's I've seen on the trails is families on e-bikes with fat kids.

Kid on e-bike keeping up with XC-racer dad I could understand. But buying yourself an e-bike because you're slow and your kid one so he can keep up with your lazy ass (or vice versa) is just sad.

What if the alternative is fat kid doesn't ride? There's this prevailing assumption that there's 2 choices, proper bike or e-bike and it's nonsense. I know 4 people with e-bikes now, 3 of them wouldn't be riding a normal bike and the 4th uses it to ride further and faster than she could before not to be lazy.

Edit - missed your second version of that post. Adding in that 4th person helped your point. 3 people choosing e-bikes who wouldn't choose a proper bike, did support the two choices model.

As an aside, I can fully get with the further aspect of e-bikes, but I'm not sure I would get any personal reward from riding a power assisted bike faster than a proper bike.

No, not at all

(I did do a quick edit because I remembered someone else, but it doesn't change the result)

He's not quite talking about our lawful e-bikes though - 250W and 14.5mph pedelec.

What with him being American I assume he is talking about American e-bike laws

A quick scan sugests 20mph and 750W for the good old USA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Federal_Laws_and_Regulations_Pertaining_to_the_Sale_of_Electric_Bicycles

Sorry it should be AT LEAST 20mph. Mate I was with is a proper fitness freak and one time KOM holder of said climb and reckons they were going about twice as quick as he could.

I've definitely seen several Illegal/ chipped ones locally (peak district). I was going down potato alley a couple of weeks ago and there was a couple of youngish lads coming UP it at about 20 mph!

These may be Bultacos?

Seen some going uphill at about 20mph a couple of times now, including my local trails on Winter Hill recently.

[img] [/img]

I know they must have been lifted over a few fences but I didn't see it unfortunately. The riders must have to go out in pairs just to do that.

No they looked like Haibike Nduros.

These may be Bultacos?

Personally, I'm not too worried and in the end, all that will come of it will be a blanket "no eBikes" rule on certain trails, which won't bother me one way or the other. And these bikes will just ignore it in the same way that the MX kids do anyway 🙁

I'll be brutally honest though, and with the exception of very wet trails (which do get badly torn up by MX bikes), it's bloody horses that damage the trail, not MTBs or eBikes. Their tearing action just rips up the surface and leaves it a muddy mess than can only be crossed by other horses, presumably while they moan about the damage caused by bikes.

Tangent rant over!

something like this is where i see a big masrket for ebikes...

get around efficiently without any noise and crap like a Vespa.

I do see e-bikes as a thing on their own and not cycling as I think of it

+1

riding is about pushing yourself. obviously we have gears and suspension, but it is ultimately me getting me and the bike to the top. riding with a motor is cheating, imo.

saying that, there are lots of older germans cruising along to the hut at the end of the valley on a weekend. how many of them would have done that without an ebike? well, quite a few, tbh, from what i've seen there were always lots of people visiting the restaurants before ebikes came along.

people are lazy.

 

Even with a GPS telling me my own current speed, I don't think I could make any accurate assessment of another rider's speed. It would be a guess.

Even forgetting the racing side, I still maintain that there could only be a tiny amount of people who are fit and able enough to ride the descents on a red/black TC trail, but are unable to make the climbs, there isn't enough of them to create enough demand to make a bike

You may well be correct there but we definitely do exist and I'm pretty appreciative that there is a bike that means that I can ride like I did before.

Even with a GPS telling me my own current speed, I don't think I could make any accurate assessment of another rider's speed. It would be a guess.

Well, say you have a GPS telling you you're doing about 25kph while going balls-out up a hill, and someone is pulling away from you a bit faster than walking speed.

Ergo, about 20mph.

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smell_it - Member

Edit - missed your second version of that post. Adding in that 4th person helped your point. 3 people choosing e-bikes who wouldn't choose a proper bike, did support the two choices model

Not really because I was posting those to counter the 2 choices (ride an e-bike or ride a proper bike) model

Turner? Never heard of them.
I dont get why some people cant tell the difference between a pedal assisted bicycle & a CR500 motocrosser.

From MTBR April 17

[i]Christina Turner was just involved in a head on collision with e Ebike in CA

Someone posted this in a CO MTN bike group. I have no additional details. Hope she is ok and hope this puts more focus on getting ebikes banned from all non-motorized trails.

"Christina Turner (hubby owns Turner Bikes) was just involved in a head on collision with an Ebike in CA. Ebikes not allowed on trail she was riding. Not only was rider going too fast for conditions on a blind corner, but was also riding against travel direction. Heal quick. Great gal, amazing rider. Not good for the Ebike movement." [/i]

Turner? Never heard of them.

You need to read up Mr.

Small boutique brand of previously Made In USA full suss bikes. DT hugely influential in MTB circles and built some of the most iconic bikes ever, that wrapped in top notch customer service and respected quality of product.

Move to carbon has been good but now made in Taiwan. Rumours of an aluminum Sultan though..

They don't really have a marketing budget, so not as in your face as other brands.

My Turner Czar has seen 11000 miles. They last too.

So some idiot was riding the wrong way (on an ebike) , he's a utter nob, but he'd be doing that on a normal bike. Ok maybe the speed wouldn't be the same, but the actions of the individual would be. You can't factor in people miss using Ebikes, the same could be said for every motorist caught speeding and causing a crash...ban all cars, I think not. Same can be said for the idiot that killed that women on the road track bike, it was his actions, I don't see the hate for all track bikes to be burned at the stake?!! Lol. And let's just be honest and think about the whole 'ban Ebikes off trails' how do you even remotely consider enforcing that? Ridiculas , and to be fair, the people who make comments like that show there intellect. The main problem will come in a few years when Ebikes start filtering down the second hand chain and into the price range of people who really don't care one way or another what or where or how fast they ride.

I don't see the hate for all track bikes to be burned at the stake?!! Lol.

No, but they are banned................lol?

. I have no additional details. Hope she is ok

Think I have seen facebook posts of hers since then.

The one rider I know who's a huge eMTB fan also has plenty of KOMs on a normal MTB and managed two consecutive years of 1,000,000 feet of ascent on his MTB. Fat or lazy?

I did a double take, he was overweight

'Course he was, he was on an ebike 😆

The one rider I know who's a huge eMTB fan also has plenty of KOMs on a normal MTB and managed two consecutive years of 1,000,000 feet of ascent on his MTB. Fat or lazy?

Are you asking Dave Turner?

He might pop up I suppose, he did start this off on the PB comments after all.

Not really because I was posting those to counter the 2 choices (ride an e-bike or ride a proper bike) model

You originally posted that you knew 3 riders who choose e-bikes but would not have chosen proper bike's. So essentially choose A or B. And then subsequently introduced person 4 who choose an e-bikes to ride further and faster than they did their proper bike. So not having to choose A or B, thus supporting your point, it's not an A or B decision. Almost like you reviewed your original post and realised the first three people had made an A or B choice, so person 4 was remembered. Either way, I agree it's not just a choice or e-bikes or proper bike.

smell_it - Member

You originally posted that you knew 3 riders who choose e-bikes but would not have chosen proper bike's.

Yes, as a response to people saying "people with e-bikes should be on proper bikes" That's me presenting the 3rd choice, none of those people made an A/B choice. Ride a normal bike, ride an e-bike, don't ride.

"Every time I see an adult on an e-bicycle, I despair for the future of the human race."

H.G. Wells

It's just encouraging the type of people who ride motox bikes down canal paths.

Ebikes are great utility bikes for the less able.

That's all I have to say.

Northwind - must just be me being thick, I agreed with your point but was confused with the examples you originally used. But apologies if I didn't get your intended point.

some idiot was riding the wrong way (on an ebike) , he's a utter nob, but he'd be doing that on a normal bike

While I understand the point you are making, there is the possibility that the person riding the wrong way would not have been on the trail if e-bikes didn't exist. E-bikes, especially de restricted ones, will appeal to more groups than those too old or injured to ride a bike. I'm talking about yobs, in case that isn't clear.

I also think that riding an ebike because it is faster will also appeal to the more yobbish mountain bikers, in turn leading to more yobbish behaviour.

"Every time I see an adult on an e-bicycle, I despair for the future of the human race."

I wish I'd thought of that.

I met a family on hired ebikes at the top of Whinlatter red the other day, they were looking a bit terrified at the prospect of riding down something even slightly technical. The easy climb (on an ebike) obviously didn't prepare them for the difficult bit!

I still can't make my mind up if it's a good thing that they were out on a bike in the first place, or bad that it is an accident waiting to happen.

I met a family on hired ebikes at the top of Whinlatter red the other day, they were looking a bit terrified at the prospect of riding down something even slightly technical. The easy climb (on an ebike) obviously didn't prepare them for the difficult bit!

I still can't make my mind up if it's a good thing that they were out on a bike in the first place, or bad that it is an accident waiting to happen.

Excellent point!

On another note, I have never been out riding in the Peaks / Lakes / Alps etc. and thought "I wish there were more bikes on the trails"

i ride with my mates every tuesday and thursday and some weekends, im much slower, less fitter, older and less skilled than them, usually they have to wait for me at the top of climbs and they never complain, id say with my mates im usually 50 yards behindbut im keen and always ready to try new things, steps, drop offs, gap jumps. Towards the end of our 2 hr+ rides is when i have my offs, usually because im knackered. ive ridden with them for 4 years, as i get fitter so do they, so its never going to change.
i now also have an ebike, they dont wait for me any more, fewer offs, more flow and we ride further, we ALL have more fun. its not an uphill work out any more on the legs, but im always breathing hard trying to keep up, and with a lot more downs its a good work out for the thighs (more standing up). before anyone points out that i might be fat,old and lazy, i nearly always do 10 miles on my liteville before i go out with my mates, so i have earned my e bike miles.
people buy e bikes for all sorts of reasons to me my reason is pretty valid.

I met a family on hired ebikes at the top of Whinlatter red the other day, they were looking a bit terrified at the prospect of riding down something even slightly technical. The easy climb (on an ebike) obviously didn't prepare them for the difficult bit!

I still can't make my mind up if it's a good thing that they were out on a bike in the first place, or bad that it is an accident waiting to happen.

if they had hired ordinary bikes and still rode up Whinlatter, would they be any less terrified? they might have been even more at risk, riding down the technical trails knackered ?

No issues with ebikes or their users here.

I still can't make my mind up if it's a good thing that they were out on a bike in the first place, or bad that it is an accident waiting to happen.

Half the folk i see on regular mtbs are also accidents waiting to happen. Ban moderately fit, keen but skill-less riders? Didn't think so 😆

I once rode with a chap who can generate enough power to match me on an ebike, he buries most people on most climbs.

I wouldn't be confident he could get down a blue descent without crashing or having a serious moment. He freely admits he probably couldn't

He's a roadie/triathlist... ban him for his own safety?