I'm less convinced the calipers will survive winter roads any better than the rims did.
Of course, your mountain bike calipers never go through a winter of grit and grime, do they....? 😉
I've had Shimano road discs since October, and ridden them throughout the winter, both on and off road. Still on the original pads, and the discs and calipers are just fine.
The advantage here is that, as with the bolt through, road bikes can benefit from all the years of development that MTBs have had with discs.
As above, TRP Spyres on since Oct (only washed the bike once which was the other day) and they're fine.
If, and I mean IF this does go through, I'd like to ask...
When all the photographers publish the pics of the racing, can they pwleeese airbrush out the discs.. Same with TV feeds.
Ta
#oldskoolcool
My disc CX bike has had one set of new pads in the 16 months that I've had it, the brakes work perfectly and in fact I can out-descend and out-brake any rim braked road / CX bike setup.
The wheels are stronger cos they're disc specific so much stiffer and lighter now they don't need a brake track.
Have to say, Brian Cookson has done more with the UCI in the last year than Pat McQ did in his entire time at the top. There's a new story every other week about better anti-doping, cameras on bikes, innovation, women's racing...
All really positive, long may it continue.
Not convinced there is much aero improvements to be had by removing the wheel brake track, as track bikes don't need them and their wheels look little different. It certainly won't offset the aero disadvantages of adding discs.
It certainly won't offset the aero disadvantages of adding discs.
I'd be genuinely interested to know if there's any way to work out if the marginalgainsaero(TM) advantages of rim calipers add more to the overall speed of a road bike than the ability to brake later and with more control.
Of course, your mountain bike calipers never go through a winter of grit and grime, do they....?
Yup, but not salt (not my caliper, just remember seeing on this forum).
[img] 
[/img]
My bikes always seem to get 10x more wear in the few weeks when the roads are salted than in the rest of the winter.
I've had my CX'er for 8 mths now.. Gone through 2 front and 1 rear set of pads.. (SRAM)
I'd say if you are getting better than this you are not using the bike correctly, or poncing about on the road, if that's the case hand it over to someone who'll use it correctly..
Awlriiight?
Good. 😆
I commuted through one of the worst winters Edinburgh ever experienced with BB7s. Never missed a beat despite all the salt and crap getting onto them. Pas life is excellent and maintenance was basically zero.
Dealing with customers rim-braked bikes wasn't so pleasant.
When you are on a 15k solo break then aero is everything and braking of almost no importance in 95% of cases.
I'm not arguing discs are useful for winter commuting. I rode home in the wet on some this eve, but the pro peleton is a world away from a wet commute at rush hour.
I'm assuming that all the people saying people will be braking faster haven't ridden a road bike with decent rim brakes.
I have ridden many road bikes with rim brakes and Sram, Shimano, and TRP hydraulic disc brakes as well as BB7's and Spyre cable pulls.
I've also ridden multiple caliper braked bikes, my current 'sunday best' road bike uses Ultegra calipers and STI's connected with Shimano Dura Ace Polymer cables, I use Mavikc Exalith rims and Swissstop Exalith specific Pads. You pretty much can't get a better performing road rim brake.
Every well set up disc I've ridden has exceeded my rim brake set-up's performance in every way, if you don't think that a disc equipped road bike will be able to stop faster than a rim brake one, you're kidding yourself.
When you are on a 15k solo break then aero is everything and braking of almost no importance in 95% of cases.
And in those 5%?
As for the 95%, what if the rims can be made more aero...? As is plausible.
See above regarding track bike wheels not being much different as you still need some rim sidewall to support the tyre so you can't remove it completely. Plus as you might expect discs are worse when hit by wind at an angle. I can't remember the figures off the top of my head.
One way of comprising is to use hydraulic caliper brakes.
When you are on a 15k solo break then aero is everything and braking of almost no importance in 95% of cases.
If everyone's on discs it doesn't matter if rim brakes are 17385328% moar aero, everyone's on discs...
[quote=hatter ]Every well set up disc I've ridden has exceeded my rim brake set-up's performance in every way, if you don't think that a disc equipped road bike will be able to stop faster than a rim brake one, you're kidding yourself.
Can you not endo your rim brake equipped bikes then? That's my basic standard for "decent rim brakes" - if you can't pitch yourself over the bars with them then no matter how many buzz words you can use to describe them they don't meet that standard. Road bicycles are limited by geometry when braking.
Plus as you might expect discs are worse when hit by wind at an angle. I can't remember the figures off the top of my head.
Specialized did some wind tunnel tests using their rim and disc-braked Tarmac bikes. They reckoned at worst, discs were 8 seconds slower over 40km. Eight seconds. Not 80 or 800. 8. And that was at a cross/headwind from the left where it hit the exposed caliper and rotor the most. Head on there was even less of a difference.
8 seconds slower over 40km
Which is about half the benefit you get from using a frame with aerodynamic tubing instead of standard ones. Or, to put it another way, your TT bike with discs is not about 25 seconds slower than one without. I know which I'd choose. Admittedly, there's even less reason for discs on a TT bike, but what ever.
I'd be genuinely interested to know if there's any way to work out if the marginalgainsaero(TM) advantages of rim calipers add more to the overall speed of a road bike than the ability to brake later and with more control.
This would certainly be interesting.
I bet Tony Martin wishes he had better braking at the 2012 TT World Champs. Or maybe not...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_UCI_Road_World_Championships_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_time_trial
Marginal gains.
Interesting. Wonder if I can keep my current road bike running long enough to get a good disc road bike that I can race on.
My commuter is disc and my cx is disc. I wouldn't go back to rim brakes on either.
Being a pro mechanic and riding lots and lots of different bikes, the problem has [b]NEVER[/b] been about braking power or modulation, its about grip and the lack of it. wet or dry, with good calipers you can alredy easily overwhelm the available grip from a road tyre, and then youre sliding. so all those saying discs will let people brake later and harder, what are they doing? magicaly increasing the grip on the road??
Still maintain that on a mountain descent, on carbon rims, in the wet, there are most certainly occasions where they're not "easily overwhelming" tyre grip
I'll be sad to see rims bakes disappear, all the arguments for and against leave me thinking it just comes down to 2 things.
1) Industry driven change for changes sake
2) Users of rim brakes unable to use them/set them up properly.
In all the years I've been using rim brakes I've only been chucked down the road twice, twice hard mind. Both times I braked too late into a corner on a decent with many switchbacks and hit some gravel.. Neither rim nor discs would have saved me from these incidents, the only thing that would have saved me is me slowing down and not being so eager to catch my mate up... 😆
So really it's just user error.
the pro peleton is a world away from a wet commute at rush hour.
Speak for yourself. If you're not stem-staring at ftp channeling your inner Tony Martin, you're doing it (the commute race) wrong.
If the peloton are all on discs, how will they do a speed boost catch up move with a mechanic leaving out of the team car "adjusting" the rear caliper?
Not allowed to do that any more anyway. Sticky bottles FTW.
the problem has NEVER been about braking power or modulation, its about grip and the lack of it. wet or dry, with good calipers you can alredy easily overwhelm the available grip from a road tyre, and then youre sliding. so all those saying discs will let people brake later and harder, what are they doing? magicaly increasing the grip on the road??
When cars and motorbikes went to disc brakes from drum brakes, did you see them sliding all over the road as they overwhelmed the tyre grip?
When MTBs went from cantis to V-brakes, did the same thing happen there?
No of course not. The grip is there, masses of it. Just a case of using it better.
With weaker brakes you need to control the speed more in order to be able to stop, that means feathering them all the way down a descent. With more powerful, more modulated brakes, you can bang them on pretty much whenever you want and know that you can still stop so you can carry more speed and brake later. Put it this way, if you were driving a car, would you want one with drum brakes or one with discs?
As I said, on my disc-braked CX, I can out-descend any rim-braked road or CX bike setup and I've never unintentionally locked a wheel. I know where the limits are, I can feel when the tyre starts to lose grip and ease off the brakes for a split second.
The conversation has gone off-topic, this was supposed to be about the UCI allowing disc brakes but it's sort of veered off on the usual tangent of vehemnet nay-sayer who foresees death at every disc braked corner and the pro "just get on with it, it's been used on motorbikes and MTBs for decades" brigade.
No-one goes on about V brakes being better than discs on MTBs when you're slithering down a muddy trail, so why would calipers be better than discs on smooth clean tarmac?
[swoons @ bikebuoy]
I commuted through one of the worst winters Edinburgh ever experienced with BB7s. Never missed a beat despite all the salt and crap getting onto them.
My experience of road BB7s over 10 years commuting around Edinburgh was that they didn't stand up to the weather well, corroded badly and got sticky. Still much better than rim brakes. I'm using Hy-Rds now, and they seem to be doing better so far. That's just materials and design, and durability will continue to improve.
None of that is an issue for the pros. Interesting to see what happens for non pro racing; will the same rules be applied across the board immediately? Race organisers have been reminding people recently that discs are not currently race legal. I don't think mixed bunches will be the big issue people think it is. Late braking is rarely a deciding factor in road racing, even in crits; you want to carry speed as much as possible and keep things smooth, rather than decelerating and accelerating dramatically. Discs can probably be introduced progressively as people buy new bikes.
I'll be sad to see rims bakes disappear, all the arguments for and against leave me thinking it just comes down to 2 things.1) Industry driven change for changes sake
2) Users of rim brakes unable to use them/set them up properly.
I don't think anyone is saying rim brakes are bad, or that they are hard to set up, it's just that disc brakes are better at braking.
Discs are miles better its undeniable but 8 seconds slower over 40km is a huge amount of time in a race. Youd gain more advantage keeping caliper brakes than taking drugs against everyone else on discs in a windy 200km race
When all the photographers publish the pics of the racing, can they pwleeese airbrush out the discs.. Same with TV feeds.Ta
#oldskoolcool
Did you want a steel frame put in as well, rather than the modern swoopy fancy plastic festival that the peloton now is, did you want the di2/eps removed as well, and go back to non-indexed down tube simplex shifters
#properoldschool #theworldmoveson 😛
Did you want a steel frame put in as well, rather than the modern swoopy fancy plastic festival that the peloton now is, did you want the di2/eps removed as well, and go back to non-indexed down tube simplex shifters
Indeed.
To keep it properly traditional, let's also ban,
Gears
Clipless pedals
Anything aero on a TT bike
TT bikes
Not having a mullet
Lycra
Team cars
Radios
Power meters
Heart rate monitors
etc.
Luddites be ludditing.
firestarter - Member
Discs are miles better its undeniable but 8 seconds slower over 40km is a huge amount of time in a race. Youd gain more advantage keeping caliper brakes than taking drugs against everyone else on discs in a windy 200km racePOSTED 4 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
Really , I think that is a tiny amount considering that is taking the worst case scenario so normally it would probably be half that and when you are sat in the peloton there is going to be no difference at all .
[quote=crazy-legs ]When cars and motorbikes went to disc brakes from drum brakes, did you see them sliding all over the road as they overwhelmed the tyre grip?
When MTBs went from cantis to V-brakes, did the same thing happen there?
No of course not. The grip is there, masses of it. Just a case of using it better.
Apples, oranges, bananas, strawmen.
- nobody is suggesting disc brakes will result in bikes sliding all over the road
- in a car with drum brakes the limit isn't the tyres grip, so braking can be improved by changing to discs
- on a MTB with (poorly set up) cantis, the limit wasn't the tyres grip, so braking could be improved by changing to Vs (though in reality ultimate braking power wasn't the main advantage)
- on a road bike with rim brakes, the limit isn't the power which can be generated by the brakes (it's not generally the grip of the tyres on the road either)
[quote=Ramsey Neil ]when you are sat in the peloton there is going to be no difference at all .
Races aren't won and lost sat in the peleton.
[quote=molgrips ]No-one goes on about V brakes being better than discs on MTBs when you're slithering down a muddy trail, so why would calipers be better than discs on smooth clean tarmac?
Cheese, chalk, strawmen.
aracer - Member- nobody is suggesting disc brakes will result in bikes sliding all over the road
Well, this seems to be saying that:
TheDoctor - MemberBeing a pro mechanic and riding lots and lots of different bikes, the problem has NEVER been about braking power or modulation, its about grip and the lack of it. [b]wet or dry, with good calipers you can alredy easily overwhelm the available grip from a road tyre, and then youre sliding. so all those saying discs will let people brake later and harder, what are they doing? magicaly increasing the grip on the road??[/b]
😉
Btw, I'm amazed at how many pro peloton racers are concerned at the performance of the BB7s on their winter commuters. 😆
aracer - Member
Ramsey Neil » when you are sat in the peloton there is going to be no difference at all .
Races aren't won and lost sat in the peleton.
Depends how you look at it Mark Cavendish has won plenty of races and I would suggest that all of his Professional wins have been when he's been sat in the peloton from the start to less than 1KM from the finish .
Just because Discs will be legal to use doesnt mean that they will all be using them for every race.
I'd imagine for a TT ,team or individual that they would use whatevers most Aero ie.Hidden or Shrouded caliper brakes.
For a Soggy classic such as Flanders I'd imagine discs would be more favourable.
Electronic shifting as a example is readily available but you still find plenty of guys using regular analogue shifting, Cancellara quite often still uses regular Dura-ace as opposed to DI2.
the problem has NEVER been about braking power or modulation, its about grip and the lack of it. wet or dry, with good calipers you can alredy easily overwhelm the available grip from a road tyre, and then youre sliding. so all those saying discs will let people brake later and harder, what are they doing? magicaly increasing the grip on the road??
I'm surprised this drivel continues to fly around. Have you actually ridden (hydro) discs on the road? The key with braking isn't power - it's control. If you can feel and modulate the braking power then you can - if you are a good rider - brake to the limit of adhesion. And with really good brakes you can even feel when it's about to slide. In all respects discs are better than rim brakes in terms of performance, and therefore they can extract the most grip from the tyre. Just because you can jam on your rim brake and fly over the handlebar is irrelevant. It adds nothing to the debate.
+1 on reggie.
Anyway, by making discs legal, it'll mean they get developed to reduce/offset some of the downsides (weight/aero). That's a good thing even if the current models available aren't up to the job on performance alone (which I don't believe is the case but there will always be doubters).
No need to swoon sonny, have a swift gulp of oxygen... off you go.
If you can feel and modulate the braking power then you can - if you are a good rider - brake to the limit of adhesion.
If you don't have good modulation with good caliper brakes there's something wrong with your setup.
Away from road bike for a second, SLX brakes are usually held up as the best money/power ratio but they have very little modulation compared to a lot of other similarly priced brakes.
Has the effect of discs in a pile-up been covered? Is there a safety aspect to having a sharp frisby slicing it's way through the professional cyclist's soft flesh at every sprint finish for the first week of the TdF?
😆
Yes it has been , it was one of the reasons given for the non adoption of discs in the pro peleton a couple of years ago .
