Am I right (I’m probably very wrong) is Shimano Di2 only for e-bikes? Don’t they make a version for ‘regular’ mtb?
GRX I’ve found as electronic, but not seen XT or XTR for MTBs.
TIA
Yea they do, XTR di2 11 speed has been around for ages
ETA: since 2014 actually, XT di2 came in a few years later
old Di2 yer..
new DI2 is ebike only...
i demo'd an Orbea rise with it, it was incredibly good
M8050 di2 is for “normal bikes”, 11 spd. Dropper posts mean battery fitment is a bit awkward if retrofitting.
M8150 di2 is for ebikes, 11 or 12 spd, and paired with EP801 uses the ebike battery.
Archer electronic shifting is for 8-speed, 9-speed, 10-speed, 11-speed and 12-speed. Plus if you rip off the rear mech you can buy a cheap and keep on going
Sorry I should have been clear - new Di2
looks like it’s a no then.
shame really.
I saw a BMW estate car parked out the back of some Welsh trail centre a few years ago with the personalised plate D12 XTR
Parked out the back presumably to avoid paying the car park fee...
😉
The fact that Shimano is still flogging a 2016 11 speed wired electronic groupset as their flagship off road product just shows how far they've fallen recently. Give it a couple of years more of this and they'll go the same way as Suntour.
I saw a BMW estate car parked out the back of some Welsh trail centre a few years ago with the personalised plate D12 XTR
Local bike shop owner, or previous owner I should say
The fact that Shimano is still flogging a 2016 11 speed wired electronic groupset as their flagship off road product just shows how far they’ve fallen recently.
I'd rather have 11 speed than 12 speed.
There's a reason their latest groupsets (including M8150 di2) offer both options.
But then I'd also rather have cable controls on an mtb myself... far less to go wrong.
Speed to market isn't always a good sign... Shimano have always been slower at flipping tech in/out than others.
Yeah, sure I get what you're saying @kelvin, but there's plenty of folks who'd want 'Shimano AXS', it's just a bit staggering why they haven't (in 7 years) come up with it yet. It feels like they've conceded the 'enthusiast' group-set market to SRAM who've dominated 12 speed development, dominated the electronic shifting market and are now busy forcing all the bike manufacturers to make bikes to take Transmission. And that's bad for consumers.
The fact that Shimano is still flogging a 2016 11 speed wired electronic groupset as their flagship off road product just shows how far they’ve fallen recently. Give it a couple of years more of this and they’ll go the same way as Suntour.
I think that Shimano have accepted that they've got road dominance (certainly in the OEM market) with OEM MTB kit still partly theirs as well and limited high end MTB.
SRAM have got the mid/high end MTB stuff sorted with some road presence.
Campag are essentially an irrelevance now with only the high end aftermarket road scene to go at.
And all three are still fighting it out for the gravel market. Seems to be split about 40:40:20 for Shimano: SRAM: Campag
Edit: pretty much what @nickc said a moment before me!
Sram's actions are bad for consumers... not sure how Shimano can adapt to or stop them though. They could have copied a separate battery on everything approach... but if they had they wouldn't have been able to do it quick enough to have any impact... and it's a dead end for ebikes anyway, where they've obviously been concentrating their effort for off road stuff in recent years.
but if they had they wouldn’t have been able to do it quick enough to have any impact
Di2 has been around for what? Couple of decades now? How long does it take?
Look what happened when they tried to speed up getting XTR 12 speed to market... it was a mess of a launch. Shimano are slow and deliberate, and they have no choice but to stick to that if they want to keep their reputation. Shimano just are slow. Sram know how to deliver for the "new mountain bike every 12/24 months" riders... and what the priorities are in doing so... Shimano aren't in that space in quiet the same way, and can't be without changing how they operate, and what their product is (arguably in a detrimental way for the rest of bike users).
We're well overdue a new XTR groupset (and then the trickle down XTR to XT to SLX to Deore over the following years), and you can blame some of that delay on Covid/factory closures perhaps, but I think that even Shimano realises that any new groupset is going to have to be - at the very least - fully wireless and UDH frame compatible to even get a look-in. Even Shimano's current flagship road groupsets are only half wireless (wireless shifters and wired front/rear mechs and battery) and I don't think that will work for the MTB public - and I'm sure it won't be long until some frames start coming without cable routing for a rear mech.
UDH probably only started being a standard thing during the development of new XTR (and to disclose, I don't have an inkling when or what it might be) and once Transmission came out, Shimano engineers might have had to go back to the drawing board to make sure that their new stuff worked with this new frame standard (while skirting SRAM patents...) and yet was still going to be innovative, light and desirable.
At the end of the day, Shimano is, at its heart, a massive metalworking and engineering company. When you have metal forging machines the size of a house, when you fire them up to make components, you have to be sure that what you're doing is the right thing, as you're not going to be switching it off for three months, so I think Shimano literally can't follow SRAM's Apple-style ducking and diving innovation - it has to be more Microsoft and try to catch up and overtake if possible, but in bigger jumps less often.
We'll see, though. Time to scour the race photos at next years world cups, to see if anyone's running unbadged components...
chipps
UDH probably only started being a standard thing during the development of new XTR (and to disclose, I don’t have an inkling when or what it might be) and once Transmission came out, Shimano engineers might have had to go back to the drawing board to make sure that their new stuff worked with this new frame standard
UDH has been around ages (well, 2019), and is fully compatible with normal derailleur mounting, it's just that transmission required removing the UDH and mounting the derailleur in that space - I'm guessing here, but if Shimano wanted to release something direct mount for UDH bikes they'd be infringing some patent or other, so they'd have to stick to normal derailleur mount
Shimano have (applied for) patents for direct mount, including concentric mount around the axle.
kelvin
Shimano have (applied for) patents for direct mount, including concentric mount around the axle.
Interesting.... to work with UDH, or as an alternative standard?
Vague. Includes keeping adjustment that Transmission doesn't have, but hard to make out much more.
If they go down this route (not sure they should) I hope they also make cable activated groupsets as well.
but in bigger jumps less often.
Given that it's been so long since they did anything but tinker around at the edges [of most off-road groupos like SLX, XT ] I reckon the next batch of series iterations needs to be pretty damned impressive to make a dent in SRAMS sales and turn the eye of bike manufacturers and users alike.
It really does have a make or break feel to it
Vague. Includes keeping adjustment that Transmission doesn’t have, but hard to make out much more.
If they go down this route (not sure they should) I hope they also make cable activated groupsets as well.
Cheers, that's really interesting. Maybe UDH is enough of an open standard that they can just build something to fit the same space, but the wee adjuster is different enough that they don't infringe on Transmission
Shimano did actually come up with "Direct mount" twenty odd years ago on the original (9speed) Saint and Hone (precursor to SLX) Groups, but nobody really fancied it at the time (it wasn't quite the same thing TBF). The trick SRAM pulled with UDH was a goodun though, define a backwards compatible, common interface standard, that also makes SRAM's planned (and patented) future product possible. If you are a frame manufacturer or a punter it's overall beneficial you can fit 'Transmission' mechs, and with a ~£15 adaptor pretty much any other old or new Mech from the competition...
Sram’s actions are bad for consumers…
Meh, SRAM products are on relatively short lifecycles, they push out high price point stuff on a pretty steady drumbeat with the obvious downside of obsolescence potentially coming a couple of years down the line and durability being questionable.
They develop new (desirable) features faster but wear rates and longer term spares/support are questionable. I doubt many people will be running an Eagle AXS drivetrains purchased today in a decades time, but then that's not the target market's priority.
Shimano work on much longer product lifecycles, and right now they're deep in the throws of implementing new 12 speed Di2 road groups and overhauling their low/mid tiers with CUES, which I think might actually be the better use of their time as we head into a period where VFM/durability is probably more on consumers radar than bling and absolute 'performance'. If you're desperate for 12 sprockets and wireless leccy shifting on an MTB, Shimano aren't particularly in a rush for your business, but SRAM are...
SRAM products aren't 'bad' they're just 'different' if you're a serial 24 month bike flipper they're fine, if you hang onto a bike for 5-10 years and replace parts like for like as and when they wear out shimano with their longer product life and more deliberate timescales in adding that 1 extra sprocket still make sense.
That's a good long version of what I meant by that throw away comment, ta.
I have both 11spd Di2 (mtb) and 12spd Sram XPLR and the latter is way better.
It's a real shame Shimano stopped giving a s**t about Di2 mtb, as it still has some good points. But no 12spd upgrade (non ebike) and no development of any form. As has been said, Shimano appear to have given up on Di2 mtb and are well behind Sram now.
It’s a real shame Shimano stopped giving a s**t about Di2 mtb
Is it? how much of the market does that really make up? how many 11 speed Deore or 9 speed Alivo mechs do you reckon they shift for each XTR dangler?
Do they "not give a shit" or do they maybe just have their priorities in slightly better order?
They develop new (desirable) features faster but wear rates and longer term spares/support are questionable
I'm not sure I agree totally with your assessment about wear rates for 12sp SRAM groupsets, And I'm not alone thinking that In my [limited] experience, these are some of the most long lasting components I've used. Recently (well, August) my bike was in for bearing replacement and the mechanic reckoned the drivetrain (Mix of XO1 and GX) was "about half way through its life" It's been on there unchanged since November 2021. It's already got 4500miles on it. That's pretty impressive by anyone's standard, the group before it (also mix of XO1 and GX) did 6000 miles.
SRAM 12 speed, for me at least, has been one of the best groupsets I've ever used; robust, easy to live with, and long lasting, Shimano will have to work hard to get me back. (and I was a die-hard Shimano user before)
Do they “not give a shit” or do they maybe just have their priorities in slightly better order?
Sram have gone the way of electronic in mtb, gravel and road, with much success, and Shimano Di2 road is popular. I think there's an argument that electronic shifting has a solid market but Shimano has stopped development in MTB, which is a shame (for me at least). I'd certainly consider a 12spd Di2 mtb setup but it doesn't exist (non-ebike).
You say this is because they have their 'priorities in better order', which I assume is another way of saying you think there isn't a good business case to develop Di2 in MTB. Correct?
Maybe you are right but I can see Sram moving ahead of Shimano in MTB, road and gravel due to their electronic developments (and others) going forwards.
cookeaa
They develop new (desirable) features faster but wear rates and longer term spares/support are questionable.
SRAM stuff has consistently outlasted Shimano for a long time now, cassettes and chains are much better
Derailleurs - I can only speak for 12 speed, but I have seen an awful lot of broken Shimano ones. SRAM SX are poor. no doubt, but GX and up are pretty good and I recokon better than Shimano.