Have to say I agree with him.
I’m lazy, with a very short attention span, can I have the edited highlights?
Man with things to sell convinced his thing is better than other thing and manages to justify the conclusion he's already reached.
A Turner ebike would kill his brand image, same as a mass produced sick bikes folder would kill theirs.
He might be right, he might be wrong but it's not exactly ground breaking stuff.
So new Turner ebike next year then?
Turner...? Aren't they the one that used to be posh Specializeds until they wouldn't/couldn't pay the Horst Link license to SBC any longer, then became posh Konas for a bit as it was an easy redesign and eventually became posh Giants?
have i just arrived in a time machine.. remember mr turner said this last year aswell
Like how he pauses for five seconds at the start, as if the e-bike atrocity defies articulation. He soon gets his legs under him though - good vid.
As someone who has had a series of Turners from a 98 XCE to a DW Sultan I have the utmost respect for David Turner. I met him once and have spoken to him on the phone a number of times, a lovely fella. So may I be the first to say "shut it grandad!"
I agree with some of it, especially the not weening off them, like Vaping it’s a new thing, not an aid for the old thing for most.
But, really does it matter? I don’t see E-Bikes as a 275 style watershed moment, I don’t think we’ll all be shocked when one September when all the new bikes are released and all the fancy ones have motors on them, but who knows eh?
Lucky for us who still want the opportunity to buy high end non-ebikes in the future I can’t imagine the UCI ever allowing motors outside of a specific category and bike cos will always want to sell bikes based on the ones that race and riders will always want to buy bikes they see their favourite riders on.
I sort of agree with him, he has a point about human nature when it comes to the idea of "new" and "more"...
It's perhaps less bleak than the image he paints of the future, but I do think plenty of people who don't really 'need' an ebike will still see it as an almost default choice...
That said, we're all free to buy (or indeed not buy) whatever we like...
But, really does it matter? I don’t see E-Bikes as a 275 style watershed moment, I don’t think we’ll all be shocked when one September when all the new bikes are released and all the fancy ones have motors on them, but who knows eh?
You wouldn't be shocked by that? It would remove the link between the sport of mountain biking [XC, DH, enduro etc] and high end bike design, which would be an eye-opener for most I reckon.
I think that's why his viewpont is interesting - not because he thinks e-bikes are aids on wheels, there's nothing revelatory about that I guess, but his projections of where things will go. Given the massive growth of ebikes in a rel short timeframe he's probably under-estimating the longterm impact.
I thought he did make one very good point. All the talk about the positive things that ebikes could be used for is fair enough, but that won't be how most people use them.
The man and the company have been getting increasingly out of touch and irrelevant over the last 10 years or so and this is just another example. And I am an ex Fanboy of all things Turner
Kinda agree with him too, don't think it'll kill it, but it'll seriously eat into the mtb market, must have already tbh. The pinch must be starting to get felt, particular as emtbs aren't cheap, so they'll be taking a big slice of the pie even if they sell less.
But in saying that, emtb will also grow the market, as the mtb sector is now opened up to more people. So I guess the question is, is that extra growth enough to keep both camps happy?
I guess that also leads to the question what are the camps? As there plenty out there adapting to emtbs as well as mtbs. So if people stubbornly refuse to accept the inevitable they are likey to fell the pinch more? As is you've a foot in both camps it shouldn't really matter, it's just a larger more diverse market now? (Which isn't really much different to what's happened in the mtb market over the last 30 years, new niches have been embraced and have enhanced the overall picture)
Actually, I think I completely disagree with him now! 😆 He's talking nonsense!
I agree with a lot of what he has said there. There are some users - including more than a couple from here, who use them to minimise the impact of ill health - hats off to them. There are others who use them to make the commute more feasible - again a very good thing.
Then there are some who use them because they don’t want to really put effort in - largely out of laziness. There, I have said it! There are the usual arguments against this. The further, more argument. The use of balancing out unequal fitness argument. The you go faster so it’s the same effort argument. Mostly it seems to be complete bullshit.
Most of the users and would be purchasers I have seen are fat (like me but often much more so), the users I have encountered don’t seem to push it that hard as they are not hot or breathless (unlike me). When watching people buy them there seems to be a large ‘aspirational’ element to it as well. Either that or I witness a disproportionate amount of lardy, lazy and transitioning from carbon enduro wunderbike to emtb silver machine, people.
People can justify it however they like, but if you are fit enough to ride a pedal-powered bike over a ‘normal’ distance then an eMTB is an admission of failure really. I know a lot of eMTB-riding people won’t care - and I don’t say they should. There again, they don’t care that what they are doing isn’t true to the spirit of the sport. The sport is about moving yourself around to get about the great outdoors. It’s not about being propelled along a path using power - unless that’s your only option of course.
There again, they don’t care that what they are doing isn’t true to the spirit of the sport. The sport is about moving yourself around to get about the great outdoors.
Only if you think that cycling is a sport at all. I see it as a pasttime,just like many others in which I participate. I also have a motorbike. No one ever accused that of being a cheaters way to ride a bicycle. E-bikes are merely another option.
He starts of by suggesting that they are
“not going to be used in all the wonderful ways as is often claimed, such as elderly or disabled people”
Who is it that is supposedly claiming that is what ebikes are for ?
It’s suits his argument very well, to start off with a completely false claim that suggests anyone not elderly or disabled is somehow in the wrong by default, and are breaking some fictional agreement, that he’s just invented, by using one.
He then spends most of the rest of the interview talking how everyone will be illegally chipping them, another figment of his imagination to suit his argument.
All in all, piss poor points all round. 👍
(who is he ?)
Here! this video was on some obscure website weeeeks ago! what was it...? oh yeah singletracksomething...
Prediction: same old ebike thread.
What surprises me when I see these threads is how much love for ebikes there is on here. I'm so out of touch with the easier is better way of thinking. For me satisfaction comes largely from effort, practice and pushing yourself. I'm with Dave on his views and wish more were.
Then there are some who use them because they don’t want to really put effort in – largely out of laziness. There, I have said it! There are the usual arguments against this. The further, more argument. The use of balancing out unequal fitness argument. The you go faster so it’s the same effort argument. Mostly it seems to be complete bullshit.
I'll be entirely honest, fitness is the reason I don't particularly cycle so much any more, certainly mtbing is much more limited and pedestrian these days(I'd a crash about 4 years ago and it completely killed my mojo, and I spiraled from there).
But I've retrofitted my bike, and I've now done 65miles since tuesday, commuting and testing it around local trails, it's a riot, and my weekly range is only going to get bigger(I'll be out at the weekend too, so I'll probably easily add another 40/50miles in). I also, while not even close to feeling it like I do on an "acoustic" bike, I can clearly feel like I've been pedalling and putting some effort in, so having the ebike will improve my fitness over time, as essentially, I'll use it everywhere now. (And it'll pay for itself, scotrail is now out of pocket, my contribution to them is now being with held foe the foreseeable!). 100+ miles per week cycling an ebike will contribute to better fitness, tbh that's indisputable.
As for admission of failure, maybe, but then again, I can blast it uphills I wouldn't even contemplate cycling up, and I can keep going faster and longer than I could on any normal bike. As with cycling, they are completely relative to fitness. I'm unfit, freely admit it, but this thing will take me 80miles on the flat on a charge, 30/40 miles in the hills, as I will pedal reasonable well and will make sure there's pedal resistance, a fitter rider would get a lot more, a less fit rider will get a lot less.
As with cycling, you'll get what you put into it. So yeah, you can sit there and berate people, call them fatties, lazy whatever, but tbh, that just sucks. Just encourage people and they'll get out and might just get fitter as a consequence. I don't really see how that is a bad thing?
As for weening off, yeah, agree there, doubt I will, I'll just get faster and get more range, that's the game now.
It's just different, not bad, worse, or cheating. Everyone is limited by their own physical limitation, the ebike is irrelevant.
It's not eating into your niche(well might be a bit, but I guess that's a question that's up for debate and will develop over time), it's just another niche and it's expanding the market and making it open to more people(potential a lot more people, if done right, it could be a proper revolution)
What surprises me when I see these threads is how much love for ebikes there is on here.
I think youll find the the vast majority of ebike lovers on here have an equal or greater love for the non assisted variety too
Oh what's the point in arguing about it? Let's not do another 10 page slanging match. Too much of that on this forum.
I'm only on the computer because it's too hot to go outside to train.
What surprises me when I see these threads is how much love for ebikes there is on here.
Yeah, people liking bikes of all different types on a bike forum is a bit weird.
He is making up a lot of stuff. The patronising "they are okay for disabled people" and where did the weening off thing come from. I have never thought anyone bought one to get them cycling and then sell it to get a standard bike.
If people want to have assistance when they cycle so what. The arguments against are from people who clearly have no interest in using one. I have no interest but I can't see any problems with them at all.
Some people are less fit than others. I pass many people on normal bikes because I am fitter than them and sometimes I get passed by other riders who are fitter than me. So what.
He is making up a lot of stuff.
I would go as far as to say that all the main points his long rambling argument were made up.
Make something up like....
“All these people claim they will just use an ebike for a while, then buy a normal bike when they are fitter”
Then say “but.... nobody does! ... it’s terrible, it’s like they are addicted”
”Therefore, as I’ve just proved, ebikes are bad. Simple”
It's a funny thing, ebikes.
over here in Germany / Switzerland, they are everywhere and it's more likely to see an ebike than not. Attitude is a little different to this. You can do more in a day, see more, experience more, have more fun at no expense to the environment or the group you're with, ebike or not.
ebike guiding, tours, races, skills courses, they are all catered for and welcomed.
Those long alpine climbs are easier and enjoy the downhill, fresh. you're no less worthy for using ebikes. The only issue I hear is less experienced bikers getting an ebike and over extending their abilities in the big hills.
Seosamh77. You are definitely not typical of my experience over the last couple of years.
But again the way you are using is admirable...
My brother has moved to sovereign harbour in Eastbourne.
The traffic in Eastbourne is pretty crap most of the time so driving to the Downs would be a pain.The journey from his house to the Downs is boring. The South Downs themselves are pretty boring.
Nice views but pretty samey.
If he bought a big e bike I'd say "fair enough".
For me , on the north downs there is no need of one.
However once I've won the lottery tonight and moved to majorca. The high temperatures and big mountains might persuade me to go leccy.
The sport is about moving yourself around to get about the great outdoors.
I’ve been doing it all wrong these years. I thought it was about getting out, riding fast, looking for good downhill lines, jumps, having fun.
Wish someone had told me how wrong I was years ago.
nealglover beat me to it. Turner starts with a false premise and develops an argument for it. it's just a "thin end of the wedge" fallacy.
I’ve been doing it all wrong these years. I thought it was about getting out, riding fast, looking for good downhill lines, jumps, having fun.
You mean something like using your bike outside and enjoying it. Doesn’t seem any different to what I said.
Popping ecstasy and riding any bike should be banned 😉
I'm like Mystic Meg, me
I sort of agree with him, he has a point about human nature when it comes to the idea of “new” and “more”…
Me too. Which means companies either have to get on the band wagon or offer something substantially different.
You mean something like using your bike outside and enjoying it. Doesn’t seem any different to what I said.
It’s very different to what you said.
You stated that mountain biking is about using the bike as a mode of transport to get around the great outdoors, and it is to a lot of people. But not everyone. To some MTB is purely about fun.
I’m about to get an E-bike and I’m neither fat, lazy, a failure or particularly aspirational.
I have a DH bike for some riding, an enduro for other bits, the E-bike will let me explore the mountains around me and session the tracks when the lifts are closed.
Then there are some who use them because they don’t want to really put effort in – largely out of laziness.
And why on earth would this be a problem for you? No one is forcing you to buy one? I hate 29ers so I just don't buy one.
I sort of agree with him, he has a point about human nature when it comes to the idea of “new” and “more”…
We one homogenous human lump sharing same value.
Not remotely scientific but a mate who rides regularly with a bunch of over 50's said that they are now over 50% e bikes. And a customer who is under 50 but over 40 says that his riding group has gone from 1 e bike to 3 in 6 months.
When will the tipping point be? When the fitter riders start struggling to keep up with the previously struggling stragglers?
Mtb if you can define it at all, is about riding a thing with two wheels and pedals off road surely or would a road bike on your local trails upset you? Does it bother you that the next guy has a 1980s BSO? Why it's [s]acceptable[/s] desirable that it not have a motor or otherwise is bizarre, if you don't like don't ride, if you do like, do.
All this vitriol should be directed into opening up more land, more stuff, more rights of access not getting upset the guy next to you didn't earn his turns. Crikey i bet you drive to your rides too you wicked beast.
More people reinforces the argument for more access regardless of if they do it fixed gear or e bike. We'll end up passing up on the loaf to fight over crumbs.
None of what someone else does should detract from your enjoyment. If it does the problem isn't with the someone else.
Get out, ride your bike, engine or no and enjoy.
If you can't take pleasure in what you do, find something else to do.
Wgas if 99% of sales are e bikes, normal bikes really aren't going to vanish. Sausage comes to wurst, you'll have to build your niche bike with rigid forks, no gears, rod brakes and so on from parts. Don't ride rigid? Don't have a cast frame? Don't have rod brakes? Don't ride fixed? Have pneumatic tyres? Then stop throwing stones in your glass house.
(who is he ?)
That in itself is hilarious.
Mr Turner just delivered for me two CX bikes whilst on holiday in the USA. They are superb.
Okay he's not kept up with the big brands but his bikes have a legacy.
We own six between us.
Shane he's not in the UK any longer.
I disagree with the "people will want more" argument. Aside from the legal constraints in the EU, there is the weight issue. A lot of the riding I do, and would like to continue to do, involves lifting bikes over gates/fences and pushing up lumpy stuff. A current e-bike would be a right pain there (I've tried one). If someone would make a lighter less powerful one, 100w would be ample, I would be seriously interested.
I have zero issues with them providing the users are sensible, but then this applies to all bikes, electric or not.
Lots of people mention physical abilities, but what about mental? There's lots of riders, some supported on here even, who suffer from mental health which can often lead to not wanting to head out on the bike. A physical cycle challenge isn't always constructive when you're struggling to get out of bed. I've seen people get out and overcome mental health because ebikes make it that bit easier. It gets them further out and seeing more whilst still spinning those legs and raising their heart rate. It lets them socialise and meet people whilst staying in a comfort zone. The NHS encourage walking as exercise- for certain people an e-bike is walking instead of jogging. It's still fitness. Long term I could see fantastic benefits for those with mental health.
The sense of well being from just being in nature is huge. A bike let's you get into the thick of nature. No cars, no human activity, no noise. There was that great article in STW about not racing everywhere and actually taking time to soak it all in. E-bikes is another avenue for people to do this.
The fat & lazy comments don't wash with me. You can apply that to anything in life. Can you honestly say that you have never taking the 'fat & lazy' route? Have you never ordered a take away? Did you refit your new kitchen? Have you ever had your car washed by someone else? People priorities their time and energy into different things in life. As long as it's not hurting anyone, crack on! I put a lot of my effort into volunteering. Late nights, weekends gone. I can't always find time to fit in my local loops. An e-bike would make that possible.
I've been out riding every other evening in this heat. I've been passed by about 10 ebike in the last week (ridden by the whole spectrum of riders). You know what I thought? It wasn't 'you lazy fat ***********'. It was 'that looks mega'!
I was boiling up, cramping and running out of water. It was a suffer fest and I started not to enjoy my local loop. I would love to have one for days like that. Days I want to cover ground without torturing myself. Days I want to take in nature and not keep my head down. It's in addition to, not instead of for me. Still, you'd see me on a trail and call me names (on the internet). No consideration for any of the above. Just label all users the same.
I'm a fit mid/late-twenties rider. I race various disciplines and push myself hard.
Dave Turner = luddite
I really don't get the fear some people seem to have of ebikes.
No one is forcing anyone to ride one.
I've been out on mine twice this week.
Also just been out on my hardtail and tomorrow I'll probably ride one of my full sussers.
I just see it as something else to ride if the mood takes me.
What I chose to ride has nothing to do with anyone else.
Well said cokie, good post.
Stu nailed it.
Who cares if some American boy on a CX bike doesn't like Ebikes?
Met my first ever decent sized group of riders entirely on emtbs down the valley yesterday. Blethered to them exactly the same as I did every other rider or group I met. (I'm just like that) Offered them advice on how best to get to the trails they were interested in riding. All very normal indeed. No other cyclists were harmed.
Baffles me why folk lose their shit over a battery powered motor assist
I have zero issues with them providing the users are sensible, but then this applies to all bikes, electric or not.
I agree. I also agree that lowering the bar for entry to a physical activity that is good for mental health is also good. I am one of those riders on here who has experienced mental health issues, I am open about this and the importance of cycling to my wellbeing. I have also been the person who struggles to get out. However, in my experience the actual effort expended when on the bike is a key element that gives me benefit.
The sense of well being from just being in nature is huge. A bike let’s you get into the thick of nature.
Yep, it does - but guess what, you can do that walking as well. If you really want to soak up nature as the primary element - nothing beats walking.
No cars, no human activity, no noise. There was that great article in STW about not racing everywhere and actually taking time to soak it all in. E-bikes is another avenue for people to do this.
Part of the being somewhere quiet is that they are often quiet because of the effort it takes to get there... Look at the noise, congestion and inconsiderate behaviour near any beauty spot accessible by road. If places become too easy to access - they become more crowded and noisy.
The fat & lazy comments don’t wash with me.
That’s ok. You don’t have to accept them. Ride over any well used trail centre and you will see it - unless you have all the visual acuity of Ray Charles. I’m not saying people should not ride on e-bikes or that people who are overweight should not use them either. What I am saying is that e-bikes are being used because some people using them don’t wish to expend energy. The amount of people blasting past on climbs in turbo and clearly only completing 1 lap of a 14km trail suggests they might be a bit, just a bit averse to expending energy.
Let me also be really clear on this. I AM FAT MYSELF* - I am not insulting people based on their weight. What I’m suggesting in general is that some of the people riding a short loop on the maximum setting would: -
a). Be better off in terms of physical health if they rode a non-assisted bike
b). If one short lap of an XC red route on max assistance is consistent limit of your exercise, maybe MTB is not the sport for you.
Continued in next post.
If one short lap of an XC red route on max assistance is consistent limit of your exercise, maybe MTB is not the sport for you.
Unless of course they are happy doing that. Better than not getting out at all.
You can apply that to anything in life. Can you honestly say that you have never taking the ‘fat & lazy’ route? Have you never ordered a take away? Did you refit your new kitchen? Have you ever had your car washed by someone else?
You don’t know me, but laziness isn’t my failure. Trying to do too much is my weakness.
People priorities their time and energy into different things in life. As long as it’s not hurting anyone, crack on! I put a lot of my effort into volunteering. Late nights, weekends gone.
Fair play. Too many people don’t put the effort into helping others.
I can’t always find time to fit in my local loops. An e-bike would make that possible.
Crazy suggestion this - but maybe expend the same energy on a shorter loop on a normal bike...?
I’ve been out riding every other evening in this heat. I’ve been passed by about 10 ebike in the last week (ridden by the whole spectrum of riders). You know what I thought? It wasn’t ‘you lazy fat ***********’. It was ‘that looks mega’!
Whereas I think, you could be putting the effort yourself and feeling more gains. Totally can’t see the point unless you are incapacitated short or long-term.
I was boiling up, cramping and running out of water. It was a suffer fest and I started not to enjoy my local loop. I would love to have one for days like that. Days I want to cover ground without torturing myself. Days I want to take in nature and not keep my head down. It’s in addition to, not instead of for me.
I don’t get this. If I don’t want to suffer - I ride slower or shorter. If I really did t want any chance of discomfort - I’d get a motorbike. At the moment that’s hard as I suffer on all rides - but I carry on. I have a diagnosis of artherosclerosis and am waiting for my surgery. Even blowing out of my arse on a short climb or riding a shorter route - I still prefer to ride a normal bike. I walk the walk. Obviously, at the same time I understand some people can’t. I actually don’t have a problem with throttle controlled e-bikes for people with sufficient disability.
Still, you’d see me on a trail and call me names (on the internet).
Whilst I am not into name calling for the sake of it, I’m not the kind of coward who would call someone something online and not be open about in real life.
No consideration for any of the above. Just label all users the same.
No, not really but don’t let that get in your way.
I’m a fit mid/late-twenties rider. I race various and push myself hard.
That is good. I still push myself - but I can’t get anywhere fast at the moment.
However, my real issue boils down to these things:
1). eMTB is being marketed heavily because it sells more product. More product using more materials to make more margin. Manufacturers don’t really care if it get more people out or let’s you ride further faster. They care about selling more expensive stuff at greater profit in greater volume. They don’t care about destroying one market to make a bigger one.
2). I like some places being hard to get to. That makes them quieter and less busy. Part of it for me is getting away from large groups of people. I want it to stay that way.
3). What happens if eMTB becomes the big money maker and the less-profitable normal bike become less available at the quality I want? If there’s not a reasonable market the development stops and the sport/pastime stagnates. Selfishly, I don’t want that to happen.
What I am saying is that e-bikes are being used because some people using them don’t wish to expend energy. The amount of people blasting past on climbs in turbo and clearly only completing 1 lap of a 14km trail suggests they might be a bit, just a bit averse to expending energy.
What has that got to do with you?
I'll tell you what it has to do with you.
Nothing at all.
If I really did t want any chance of discomfort – I’d get a motorbike.
Ever raced off road on a motorbike?
Something tells me not.
Back in the late 80's a bought my first MTB to help train for my moto enduro racing.
It was suggested I might want to enter an MTB race.
I couldn't believe how unfit some of those mountainbikers were...
Crazy suggestion this – but maybe expend the same energy on a shorter loop on a normal bike…?
why? just to keep you happy? what's the difference if the same energy is expended?
What has that got to do with you?
I’ll tell you what it has to do with you.
Nothing at all.
Much like my opinion could be seen to have nothing to do with you? If that’s truly your approach - shouldn’t you have just ignored it...?
Anyway, this is only my opinion and experience - it doesn’t need to trouble anyone else. You don’t need to agree. What I must admit though is my first post on this thread was too strongly worded and in fact my words were carelessly chosen. It’s not an excuse but yesterday was a bit shit all round. Given the option, I would rescind that post as it’s been less than helpful and understandably annoyed a few people. It’s not aided any reasonable debate.
My original agreement with Dave Turner is that these ebikes are being pushed as far as the mainstream is concerned as a replacement for normal bikes and that we could lose something special as a result. There is something rather amazing about getting out purely under your own steam and exploring. If you can’t see that I feel sorry for you.
I do see there is a place of e-bikes, totally can understand their role as an alternative to uplift or as a great commuting tool, but would we all really want to see normal bikes supplanted and obliterated as a high-quality machine? I wouldn’t - and that’s where the proliferation is about us all, that’s where everyone’s opinion is worth including.
I’ll step back from this thread now, as I haven’t shown myself in the best light and I don’t think any further input from me will improve matters.
it's pretty obvious from what certain folk on here say about Emtbs they've never descended technical DH trails on one either.
I'll spell i out for those who haven't. On an Emtb to descend in the same manner as your enduro/DH bike you're actually going to need to be stronger.
jamj1974, have you ridden an ebike yet?
So you've never raced off road on a motorbike then.
You should try it it's dead easy you just sit there and twist your right hand.
No other physical activity going on at all...
it doesn’t need to trouble anyone else.
I very much dought that it does.
Much like my opinion could be seen to have nothing to do with you? If that’s truly your approach – shouldn’t you have just ignored it…?
Oh the old classic post on a public forum with some shit and think you're unquestionable.
Have you ridden an ebike?
There's more to riding a bike than wearing a hair shirt on the climbs.
would we all really want to see normal bikes supplanted and obliterated as a high-quality machine?
It's not really going to happen, long as people like yourself keep buying them. If the market dissappears, means there's no market, and well you've lost the argument.
But they won't disappear.
Just a couple of (Non-argumentative), final responses and then I’m out.
No, I have never raced off-road motorbikes. I never in any way said that I had. I meant that riding a motorbike involves less pedalling. However, I did quite frequently ride around on a mini-motocross bike for a couple of years - as one of my mates had one and a couple of acres of land. I was only 8 & 9 and it wasn’t in anyway competitive or extreme in nature. Riding around a bit of scrubby woodland - that was it. I am though massively aware that riding a motocross bike fast - is not physically easy.
I have ridden an e-bike recently - but not for a ‘proper’ ride. I couldn’t claim to be massively interested in one (No surprise), so didn’t spend a lot of time on it. It was ok, but not compelling. If I had no other option for health reasons to get out I would happily ride one. Until then it’s not for me - although obviously others feel differently.
I haven’t thought I was unquestionable - of course not on a public forum. I was simply saying if nothing anyone else did was my business, why would my opinion be yours..? It’s hardly reaching.
And, yes - clearly descending at speed on an emtb would take greater effort. It weighs more, changes the ratio of body weight to bike weight, so yes, it’s easy to see.
I am now leaving this thread permanently - as I am well aware that my posts as mentioned above, have not been generally helpful. I don’t usually set out to offend or annoy - but quite obviously and understandably have. The best thing for me to do is apologise and stop posting on the thread so, please can we let this finish here.
I don’t usually set out to offend or annoy – but quite obviously and understandably have. The best thing for me to do is apologise and stop posting on the thread
That takes a lot to admit. Thanks for that.
They're not really unhelpful or offensive, at all, just come across as you wanting to impose your will on other people, for no real apparent reason other than, I suffer so you should too. Fun policesque! 😆
you cycle for effort, I cycle for enjoyment, transport, scenery and a bit of fitness. It's all good. 🙂
who is he ?
That in itself is hilarious.
why ?
why ?
Because he's produced some of the most pioneering mountain bikes of the previous 20 years.
Seriously, never heard of a 5 spot or a Sultan, or even a Burner?
We’ll have to see how this all pans out over the next decade. I think it’d be a shame if ‘clockwork bikes’ became museum pieces but judging from the posts on here I’d say that there is a chance of that happening. When I first came to mountain biking, articles such as Guy Martin riding his Cotic Soul (with heavily patched inner tubes) around the moors with the poor interviewer try to keep up, were what inspired me. I don’t see that adding more expensive, complex machinery to a beautiful, simple piece of equipment, as a good thing.
I’m fortunate in that I’ve found a niche for myself in xc racing where hopefully bikes will remain purely human powered and I’ll continue to be able to enjoy the company of like minded people. I only come into contact with ebikes when I go to trail centres anyway which is once in a blue moon, but I must admit I hate the thought of being overtaken by someone less fit than me on a climb, doesn’t seem right, but that’s my problem and I enjoy giving chase and using them as a rabbit to make me push myself harder in training.
So why do I feel so anti? It’s so hard to explain to people who don’t let the following things bother them: TV - generally, what a waste of time, plastic food in plastic wrappers, big expensive cars bought on credit by people who can’t really afford them, credit in general - if you can’t afford it then you can’t afford it! I won’t go on, I’m sure you get my point. I’m not a Luddite, I just think that actual happiness is often achieved when you stop trying to have the next thing and slow down a bit to enjoy what you have.
Bracing myself yet again for the howls of derision by the extremely shouty pro group. Don’t slay a man for trying to look into the future and expressing concerns about the human condition. Just look at the state of our planet and ask yourself do we really need millions of new units of bulky, toxic trash dumped into our consumer train? As mountain bikers couldn’t we take the high ground and say ‘no we don’t want your sh*t, we want to enjoy the woods and hills on the stuff we’ve got already, powered by our own efforts’, a little bit separate from the madding crowd fighting for the next iPhone in the cities.
I know this arguament is full of flaws and ridiculously eutopian, and the fact that I’m typing on a forum instead of going out in this beautiful morning rather goes against my preaching, but I keep feeling compelled to post on these threads and keep banging my head against the wall when I just ask you all to think in a different way for maybe a tiny benefit to the world we live in.
P.S. before you point out that xc racing is not carried out on simple pieces of equipment, I’d add that I heartily agree. I think racing would be great if it was based on one-design, cheap, simple bikes where you paid your money, pulled a bike off the rack and lined up to compete on equal terms. In road racing/crits i find it ridiculous that you have fifteen year olds on 5k superbikes. Legs should do the talking, not wallets.
I just think that actual happiness is often achieved when you stop trying to have the next thing and slow down a bit to enjoy what you have.
What XC race bike do you have, the latest thing or a 20 year old one that does the job?
And yes your argument is clearly full of flaws - comparing use of bikes to plastics and PCP is ridiculous. People driving a car because it is easier and quicker than walking r public transport is a better comparison but even that is poor.
I am not interested in eBikes either (other than I would like more people to ride them where I live so they can pace me up hills) but you are mistaking people like me who are happy for people just to get out and ride for the shouty pro group. I am not sensing a shouty pro group but I do sense a shouty anti group.
In fairness I did race a second hand, singlespeed, rigid 26’er until a couple of years ago when I finally got fed up with being disadvantaged on some courses and had to buy a 29er to keep up.
And wouldn’t it be great if walking/public transport was utilised more? I find driving the single most aggravating thing I have to face each day.
1). eMTB is being marketed heavily because it sells more product. More product using more materials to make more margin. Manufacturers don’t really care if it get more people out or let’s you ride further faster. They care about selling more expensive stuff at greater profit in greater volume. They don’t care about destroying one market to make a bigger one.
The only bit of that with any truth is the marketing bit, and of course wanting to sell more stuff, as any business does.
In fact this thread has highlighted what a waste of time the internet can be. I’ve just spent an hour typing shit to an audience who doesn’t care and all it’s done has irritated myself and others. I only look at this site when I’m bored, it’s a bit of an automatic thing.
Time to try go cold turkey and stop doing it. Wish me luck! I’ll be cool when I see you out on the trails whatever you ride, I only get antsy when on here.
Right, it’s a beautiful, sunny day. Laterz xxx
I'm recovering from a broken neck and having an ebike has got me out and riding much sooner than I would have done on my clockwork bike as I have been able to lean on the motor assistance. However I broke my neck when I crashed the ebike, there wasn't that much wrong with me beforehand.
I think I may just have invented some sort of perpetual motion machine. Do i win £5?
In fact this thread has highlighted what a waste of time the internet can be. I’ve just spent an hour typing shit to an audience who doesn’t care and all it’s done has irritated myself and others.
You are doing it wrong. If I spend more than 20 seconds typing something on a forum then I have failed. The more you write the less it is read. I see it as a back and forth discussion and if someone went off on a 5 minute rant I would have walked away before they finished.
Turner…? Aren’t they the one that used to be posh Specializeds until they wouldn’t/couldn’t pay the Horst Link license to SBC any longer, then became posh Konas for a bit as it was an easy redesign and eventually became posh Giants?
that is a dickhead comment. Specialized bought the patent after Turner had been using it, which is why they stopped, same story for Giant with their NRS. And Giant ripped off the dw-link system that Turnr licensed on their bikes. Certainly when I compared some Turners and Giants, Turners dw-linked bikes were better performing.
Typical grumpy old man comment there...
Ignoring the usual issues and defences people raise.
Will the proliferation deflate the price of non motorised....... sorry......non motor assisted bikes?
Will we also see a reduction in choice? Particularly in the mid range where my bikes usually sit.
So long as I can find bikes without motor assistance ride what you like. I won’t buy into e bikes unless forced by health but that’s a personal choice. If fun was the primary factor that might be different. I can’t see non ebikes being exterminated tbh. A though that sprang to my whilst in a traditional clinker built rowing skiff off the Scottish coast yesterday morning as we left the jet skis behind hooning around the bay.
I disagree with the “people will want more” argument. Aside from the legal constraints in the EU, there is the weight issue.
Don't forget that he is talking about 'mericans, who drive around in cars with huge engines just because they can be huge, and I don't think their e-bikes are subject to the restrictions we have.
I agree with Dave in many respects, but also with many people here that say that the e0bike has actually got them out on the trails where they at least got some physical, and mental, benefits.
I've got a couple of those EUCs, which are bugger all exercise, but strangely can be good for calming down your state of mind.
But he is talking as if from the viewpoint of the skier that would prefer to skin up a mountain in order to ski down and feel they had earned it, instead of take a helicopter ride to the top. A more purist view.
But I have seen several physically able people get e-mtbs basically because they because they are lazy - I could see that when riding with them.
I’ve spoken to Tim a lot about this - he’s someone who’s ridden over a million feet of ascent two years in a row, competed in the Leadville 100, holds lots of KOMs on his intense local trails, and he absolutely loves how much further and faster he goes on his ebike. And says he’s fitter than ever because of it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iefJf609Tkg
But I have seen several physically able people get e-mtbs basically because they because they are lazy – I could see that when riding with them.
Maybe they just want to go out for a ride with less effort. If they were lazy they wouldn't be on a bike at all, they would be sat on the sofa watching tv.
I do wonder about the pain merchants. When you go for a 20/40/60 miles cycle, do you not feel like your are cheating when you could have ran that? There's always more pain you can inflict on yourselves.
Ultra runners everywhere must be looking down their noses at you! 😆
I think we can all agree that David Turner's marketing strategy has worked a treat btw!
I'd no idea who he was and had only vaguely heard of the bike brand! 😆
<div class="bbp-reply-author">nealglover
<div class="bbp-author-role">
<div class="">Member</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="bbp-reply-content">
<div class="bbcode-quote">who is he ?
</div>
<div class="bbcode-quote">That in itself is hilarious.
</div>
</div>
<div class="bbp-reply-content">
why ?
Its funny as I didn't find it hilarious that the poster didn't know who Turner was because he's a legend more that Turner is pointlessly raging against something as his audience don't know who he is so don't value his opinion. Things have moved on.
</div>