Cycling UK crowdfunding for a new long distance route

Good idea - done. ☑️ 

What makes a cycling U.K. route different to a Komoot or other electronic route?  Are they waymarked?  Is special access negotiated?  Are they competing with Sustrans? 

£42k is either a lot or nothing.

To me it’s odd and unappealing that they don’t tell us where the proposed route is likely to be - obviously the detail might be part of the cost but some idea if it’s north, south, hilly, coastal, an area cyclists rarely go or somewhere that is missing some essential links etc.  it’s really just saying “bung us some cash and we might add another item to the website”.  I’m sure there’s more to it than that, the Gill Foundation are matching donations so presumably have done some due dilligence.  Oddly there’s no information about the Gill Foundation - there seem to be multiple organisation with names like that but none who were such an obvious “fit” with adding a new cycle route that I could guess which one!

It feels like the sort of initiative I might bing a tenner towards - if they had done a bit more effort to explain…

Posted by: ishouldknowbetter

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What makes a cycling U.K. route different to a Komoot or other electronic route?  Are they waymarked?  Is special access negotiated?  Are they competing with Sustrans? 

CUK have sort of found their niche in "curating" these routes - from what I can tell mostly using existing tracks, byways, bridleways and quiet roads while also tying in some history, worthwhile sights and so on. King Alfred's Way, TransWales, Marcher Castles etc. I think they did negotiate some permissive access for bits of the Great North Trail. Kind of fits well with their historic "touring" origins as Cyclist's Touring Club before the rebrand and they're moving with the times and probably quietly acknowledging the decline in traditional "pack up the Dawes Galaxy and ride from hostel to hostel" touring and the rise in bikepacking and gravel.

On the other hand, having "curated routes" can lead to overtourism and attempts on Fastest Known Time. Used to be you planned your own driving tour around Scotland, now everyone goes and does North Coast 500. I wonder how much the same happens with cycle touring?

I don't see it as *competing with* Sustrans, who seem more focused on active travel and family type trails. Complementary to Sustrans, probably. Be interesting to see more details of their proposed new route.

Certainly not competing with Sustrans, but yes they do seem to have limited their interest in off-road cycling to creating new long-distance routes in recent years.

Personally, I'd like to see them getting more involved in access advocacy again instead, but perhaps...

And I agree it's a bit weird they are not saying where it would be.

Similar to others, I'd be happy to commit a few £s as I've enjoyed a number of their other routes but it would be good to understand roughly where the route might be, and what the money is used for in developing the route. At the moment it's a bit of a "give us some cash charity appeal" or a "kickstarter funding programme for something we don't even know what we'll get". They also seem to release routes in the autumn just at a point it would become much harder to ride them due to weather/ground conditions getting worse.

In fairness I'm already a member of CUK and generally appreciate their efforts, but I don't see the need for secrecy. 

Looks like it is a route guide and a gps file.  The guide for one existing route costs £19. 

https://www.cyclinguk.org/routes/long-distance/king-alfreds-way

Sorted

Which bit of England or Wales will get the next one?

Would be good if some of that 42 grand went in to making up and affixing a load of route markers, rather than just a 10 quid PDF and GPX file.  Oh and to get someone to put it in OpenStreetmap too.

At least that way when people are out and about they might see the signs on finger posts etc. and then wonder where a route goes.

But then that means they need to fully support the route on the ground in the future and have some locals that check the state of their patch.

Dunno why they are so secretive about the vague location. I imagine it's another one down south, and don't want to limit the northern donations.  Or is so far north and remote that the bulk of the southern membership won't donate to a route they'll have little chance of ever getting to.

Just been doing a 120km route in Germany. Could have done it with no GPX/Garmin at all, and didn't even have the free PDFs with me either. 2 diversions due to trail damage and a whopping 1 forest path junction with a missing sign. 

Which bit of England or Wales will get the next one?

Devil's avocado - Would they say Scotland's access rights mean this sort of thing would be redundant/way too easy?

Access rights are a small part of you want to create a long distance route you still need to string it together thats essentially what the 10pound pdf is doing.

But actually in this situation i would argue that Northern Ireland that should get something. Its got one of the worst cycling uptakes in Europe.

tell me where the route is and i will consider my donation.

Access rights are a small part of you want to create a long distance route you still need to string it together

Soooo much easier to string together when you don't have to stick to the long dotted lines on the OS though.

I'm sure you're right about NI BTW. I've heard the access situation is even worse there - which may reinforce the need and explain why they haven't done one.

Posted by: andytherocketeer

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Dunno why they are so secretive about the vague location. I imagine it's another one down south, and don't want to limit the northern donations.  Or is so far north and remote that the bulk of the southern membership won't donate to a route they'll have little chance of ever getting to.

I did wonder if that was the reason behind the vagueness - if the route is the arse end of nowhere and everyone says "oh I'll never go there" so they don't donate.

On the other hand, plenty of people might look at it and go "hmm, if they don't actually specify the route or any details, why should I donate?"

No win really!

Sounds more like a speculative crowdfunder than anything concrete. A sort of "if we have £42,000, we can pay a couple of people to design a route and buy some signage".

Having ridden half of the Great North Trail, nothing would induce me to give money to CUK to develop another trail. It was a terrible route, badly joined up with gate heavy or almost non-existent trails that just weren't suitable for a bike. Speaking to the staff in a bike shop in Settle, it seemed nobody riding it that had been in the shop had rated it.

It looks like they hadn't learnt their lesson for the West Kernow Way, which for a long distance looks to have a lot of shite if this is the sort of stuff they included in the launch press release-

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On the other hand, having "curated routes" can lead to overtourism and attempts on Fastest Known Time. Used to be you planned your own driving tour around Scotland, now everyone goes and does North Coast 500. I wonder how much the same happens with cycle touring?

KAW is definitely busy if you're a cyclist and know it exists and know what bikepackers look like.  Everyone from bikes dripping in so much restrap gear you question how they'll climb up to the Ridgeway, to people on Carrera's going from one Premier Inn to the next.

I can't imagine there are many long distance trails busier than that given it's proximity to the UK's population density but beyond a little curtain twitching about car's of cyclists occasionally parking on our street (it passes my door) I don't think anyone even knows it exists.

Would be good if some of that 42 grand went in to making up and affixing a load of route markers, rather than just a 10 quid PDF and GPX file.  Oh and to get someone to put it in OpenStreetmap too.

At least that way when people are out and about they might see the signs on finger posts etc. and then wonder where a route goes.

Waymarking isn't feasible.  You need to individually consult with every parish council on the route, some will say no either because they CBA dealing with something they have no interest in, or read the mail and don't like cyclists, then what? Force them into a judicial review?  If the parish council doesn't own that particular gate, sign or fence you need to consult with whoever does. Then logistics of doing that over ~350km are a considerable undertaking in itself. as is cost.  And then after all that if there are closures, conflicts, or just a desire to change it you can't just tweak the GPX and guidebook for the next print.

So it's like a cycling version of the NC500, then? Someone joins up a bunch of tracks you're already allowed on, trousers a load of money from the resulting book, map and gpx sales, then walks away from the inevitable problems arising from overtourism? Sounds great!

Yet the walkers manage to get acorn symbols on every stile etc. pointing the way.

Or different symbols for the 2nd/3rd tier long distance walks that aren't the national trails.

Not sure I'd compare CTC/CUK virtual online route idea with NC500.  Even say the Cantii Way route, which is largely paved and goes via a handful of already touristy villages will get barely any extra traffic due to cyclists.  Unless of course some commercial car organisation makes it go viral. Then it'd be chaos.

Least it's not gonna be a nettle/bramble slop fest like (parts of) some of their other virtual routes.

Posted by: thisisnotaspoon

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Waymarking isn't feasible.  You need to individually consult with every parish council on the route, some will say no either because they CBA dealing with something they have no interest in, or read the mail and don't like cyclists, then what?

It's easy enough to do it on the quiet. Some fence posts out in the countryside have so many signs screwed to them you can barely see the post, I can't imagine every council knows about every sign. Half of them won't even know about the path itself never mind every sign on it!

Rapha waymarked their Manchester - London ride using little blue square / white arrow stuff as a supplement to the correx signs that went out on event day itself. Little sticky squares that were put on lampposts and the metal poles of road signs. Many are still there now - if you knew what you were looking for you could do most of the ride!

Posted by: Munro Biker

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It looks like they hadn't learnt their lesson for the West Kernow Way, which for a long distance looks to have a lot of shite if this is the sort of stuff they included in the launch press release-

I remember seeing that press release and wondering who the hell they were aiming the route at. The text said about "wonderful for families" and then showed someone knee deep in a bog. 

inevitable problems arising from overtourism

They wished!

You are definitely overstating C-UK's reach and influence.

What makes a cycling U.K. route different to a Komoot or other electronic route?  Are they waymarked?  Is special access negotiated?  Are they competing with Sustrans? 

Having tried following a few Komoot routes in the past, accuracy would probably be one big 'un. Some of the ones I've used have been built by someone sitting behind a keyboard. One example is an otherwise genuine looking gpx of the London To Brighton Offroad route I downloaded a few years back so I could ride home to Dorking after doing the ride. I ended up going all over the shop at Christ's Hospital trying to re-find the Downs Link because whoever had uploaded the GPX assumed it followed the old railway line through that area. Hint: it does not.

Someone joins up a bunch of tracks you're already allowed on, trousers a load of money from the resulting book, map and gpx sales, then walks away from the inevitable problems arising from overtourism? Sounds great!

That's pretty cynical. I don't imagine they make a massive amount of money from it, but that's based on a wild guess (as is yours) and a few decades of publishing experience.

Frankly, this isn't some tax being levied on everyone. If you don't like the idea, don't chip in. Whining and bitching is free, after all.

It's easy enough to do it 

You crack on then 😉

inevitable problems arising from overtourism?

Where has that happened? 

Posted by: thisisnotaspoon

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inevitable problems arising from overtourism?

Where has that happened? 

To be fair it mostly happens from people in cars because more cars don't fit nicely whereas more bikes is generally less problematic. North Coast 500 (as a driving route), places like Mam Tor which gained TikTok notoriety and now has horrific parking problems... There was some Cotswold village on the news recently because of the sheer number of visitors (again via TikTok and possibly because it was a film location) [edit: this one - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn89w353840o ]

And, related to bikes, trail centres like Glentress / Sherwood Pines etc generate huge amounts of traffic. Yes, it's still cars causing it but rather ironically, it's for the purpose of going riding.

Might be simpler to give the money to Markus Stitz who's doing a fine job of stringing routes together, and you'll know he's ridden every inch instead of relying on the opinions of others.

KAW is definitely busy if you're a cyclist and know it exists and know what bikepackers look like.  Everyone from bikes dripping in so much restrap gear you question how they'll climb up to the Ridgeway, to people on Carrera's going from one Premier Inn to the next.

Very much this^^ 

You'll see them in increasing numbers from April onwards till early October. But I think KAW has the advantage of being a loop, while CUK seems to think Winchester is the obvious start/finish point, people can go from wherever they want (wherever is more local to them?) and (IIRC) the GPX files are available chopped into 6 as well so you can just re-order the way you follow them. That sort of helps minimise crowding issues I reckon. 

I feel like if they're going to do more routes they should do a couple more loops. 

I think CUK have recognised that in order to stay relevant they need to cover this particular niche of off-road long distance routes. But they do need to make sure the info they supply is accessible. BC won't do this and all the online platforms are just that businesses that will be looking to monetize all the 'free' stuff eventually. For example how long has Komoot really got left now they've been bought by bending spoons? 

Posted by: epicyclo

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Might be simpler to give the money to Markus Stitz who's doing a fine job of stringing routes together, and you'll know he's ridden every inch instead of relying on the opinions of others.

Markus "let's follow this boggy field edge with no path even though there's a perfectly good road right next to it" Stitz doesn't have a bloody clue what he's doing. His routes are awful - my mates have all given up riding them. 

I’d be more inclined to chip in if I knew where they were planning to do this (though I might anyway).

As important as their advocacy stuff is, I thought this sort of stuff is harking back to CUK’s roots, as bikepacking touring has never really gone away?

Waymarking isn't feasible.  You need to individually consult with every parish council on the route, some will say no either because they CBA dealing with something they have no interest in, or read the mail and don't like cyclists, then what? Force them into a judicial review?  If the parish council doesn't own that particular gate, sign or fence you need to consult with whoever does. Then logistics of doing that over ~350km are a considerable undertaking in itself. as is cost.

Obviously waymarked trails are harder - but long distance walking paths show far from impossible.  Certainly id much rather chip in to something which meant I didn’t need an electronic tool to navigate with, where I could be sure the route had been tested, wasn’t causing local conflicts, and where probably local businesses were supportive of the extra footfall…

Now Google tells me the John Muir way cost £700k to create. Whilst the Rob Roy Way was created without any official budget.  That’s an interested set of extremes!  If a route marker costs £2 and a typical route is 200 miles, then £42000 buys enough for markers every few hundred meters….   That I could get behind.  If it pays a salary for someone to go and negotiate with various people to agree to being on the route - that I could get behind.  Realistically it probably needs both.  But 42k for someone to work out a route that needs neither local negotiation nor signage and has not got a published start or end point?  Where do I apply to deliver that gig?

The earlier routes they developed were funded by the EU. I was wondering how they would fill the gap. Curiously, one of the key people in the planning process was a staunch Leaver. 

people on Carrera's going from one Premier Inn to the next.

and the problem is .. ..

If that's more people cycling and getting involved, isn't that a good thing? More support in the populace for more cycling infrastructure, tolerance of cyclists, fitter people, ... etc...

No I dont have a Restrap, Carrera, or ... just a bang average cyclist who enjoys the freedom of being outdoors on my Camino, Stage Evo, Capra and the occasional bike packing trip 🙂

Posted by: montgomery

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walks away from the inevitable problems arising from overtourism? Sounds great!

Good grief. This is a bit melodramatic 

I'm in the "tell me where and I might consider donating" crowd, and I don't mean that in a parochial way. I've been tempted to do some bikepacking/touring in England but the whole RoW/access thing puts me off. Knowing that there was an agreed, established route would definitely pique my interest. 

I don't think there's as much overlap with Sustrans as some folk think, certainly not since Sustrans started de-numbering the longer distance routes if they didn't come up to their more exacting (dare I say urban) standards. 

Posted by: nickingsley

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If that's more people cycling and getting involved, isn't that a good thing? More support in the populace for more cycling infrastructure, tolerance of cyclists, fitter people, ... etc...

+1. People have to start somewhere; a colleague of mine who is extremely keen (much to her husband’s bemusement) got bitten by the bug while doing our annual Organ Donation awareness bike ride on a borrowed Carrera.

I’m sure there was a comment in the most recent Streets Ahead podcast that bike related tourism is a much bigger thing than it’s given credit for. You’d assume it’s got lower impact than coach/car trips, and is good for business, particularly if you’re a cafe with decent cake.

Sustrans started de-numbering the longer distance routes if they didn't come up to their more exacting (dare I say urban) standards.

’More exacting’ being passable by people who aren’t masochists who like wading through bottom-bracket deep mud? I know this is UK based MTB forum where that’s all part of the fun, but strangely some people don’t enjoy that.

Laura Laker’s book on the NCN is well worth a read if you haven’t done already.

Posted by: ratherbeintobago

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’More exacting’ being passable by people who aren’t masochists who like wading through bottom-bracket deep mud?

No. More exacting in that in no possible way should you be allowed anywhere near the same roadspace as a motor vehicle. 

Posted by: neil the wheel

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Curiously, one of the key people in the planning process was a staunch Leaver. 

Not a surprise having spent some time on the CUK forum…

Posted by: ScotRoutes

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No. More exacting in that in no possible way should you be allowed anywhere near the same roadspace as a motor vehicle. 

This was very much one of the problems with some Sustrans routes - going wildly out of the way to avoid 200m along a road and the highly variable standard of some of the routes didn't help either. 

The bikepacking / touring route thing is a difficult one to get right. Go too far one way and you end up cycling for ever along old railway trails or canal towpaths and that can be deadly dull. Too far the other way and you're wading through bogs and across moorland cos someone behind a keyboard thought it would class as "adventure".

Posted by: bent udder

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Frankly, this isn't some tax being levied on everyone. If you don't like the idea, don't chip in. Whining and bitching is free, after all.

 

I'm feeling a strong urge to make whining and bitching chargeable, we'd have amazing cycling infrastructure in no time!

I suspect the KAW will be awesome this year with it being so dry. It was flipping hard work on CX bikes last September with the wet chalk.

Posted by: ishouldknowbetter

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Now Google tells me the John Muir way cost £700k to create. 

The john muir way has some sections of purpose built path

Posted by: fossy

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I suspect the KAW will be awesome this year with it being so dry.

I actually wish I had some more touring / bikepacking gear and the time / money to just disappear off for a couple of weeks because the recent weather has been exceptional.

Was talking about it with a mate this morning, we both concluded that we were due an absolute washout summer of non-stop rain from June to August.

Some trails are actually almost too dry, there's some properly sketchy descents in the Peak District now with loose dry rubbly gravel all over them.

Posted by: neil the wheel

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The earlier routes they developed were funded by the EU. I was wondering how they would fill the gap. Curiously, one of the key people in the planning process was a staunch Leaver. 

Things appear to be progressing quite well in the EU.

I've cycled the EuroVelo 6 from Passau to Budapest - I don't remember cycling on any roads (if I did, it was a very small amount). Also done the Prague Vienna Greenways - this one had a few more road sections, but it was very good.

Based on my sample size of 2, I'm impressed with what goes into dedicated cycle routes in Europe. 👌

Also, there's a lovely route I used to cycle in Spain - it's now a designated cycle route (albeit on the road), with distance/altitude markers for cyclists and warnings for drivers.

Our general attitude towards cycling isn't quite as keen in the UK. The appetite for funding, unsurprisingly, won't be as keen either. 🤷‍♂️

Frankly, this isn't some tax being levied on everyone. If you don't like the idea, don't chip in. Whining and bitching is free, after all.

Its just a weird way to do it from an organisation.

I don't think anyone whined or bitched. 

Posted by: Oms

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Our general attitude towards cycling isn't quite as keen in the UK. The appetite for funding, unsurprisingly, won't be as keen either. 🤷‍♂️

That sums up the whole approach - the fact that a supposedly "national cycling network" has had to be developed and funded by a charity is pretty outrageous.

I get that long distance leisure riding might legitimately be lower down the funding chain than "utility cycling infrastructure" but it still feeds into tourism, visitor economy, health and numerous other benefits.

And, related to bikes, trail centres like Glentress / Sherwood Pines etc generate huge amounts of traffic. Yes, it's still cars causing it

So to conclude, there aren't actually any notable problems anywhere with over(cycle)tourism caused by long distance routes and the closest examples are bad parking in Peebles/Cannock/Clipstone for trail centers which have nothing to do with them.

Even the locals moaning about having to queue for cheese straws in Peeslake would be a better example of cycle over-tourism (but nothing to do with the CTC or bikepacking).

Posted by: crazy-legs

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That sums up the whole approach - the fact that a supposedly "national cycling network" has had to be developed and funded by a charity is pretty outrageous.

I get that long distance leisure riding might legitimately be lower down the funding chain than "utility cycling infrastructure" but it still feeds into tourism, visitor economy, health and numerous other benefits.

Is that not just that a charity is a more financially useful mechanism than governement and seems to be independent of government and therefore avoids both politics and Politics or how things get done.  ie. if you want a new path going trough three local authorities in Scotland its more likely to happen with a non-governmental organisation pushing it than any LA, Scottish Gov, UK Gov push when they all fight amongst themselves?

I'm sure there are some people donating to Sustrans, but I assume that its funding doesn't primarly come from individual donors but rather from major grants?

Posted by: ishouldknowbetter

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I'm sure there are some people donating to Sustrans, but I assume that its funding doesn't primarly come from individual donors but rather from major grants?

Yes, I think you're right. Again, if you've not read Potholes & Pavements this covers Sustrans funding in some detail.

FWIW I don't think it's great that what's nominally national infrastructure is largely in the hands of a charity, and repeating the error by handing over the canal network to the a charity wasn't a great move either.

Sustrans started de-numbering the longer distance routes if they didn't come up to their more exacting (dare I sayurban) standards.

I think part of the problem with the Sustrans network is they're trying to make it something it's not, a national network. 

The map and numbering would imply that you can ride from Bath to London, or Reading to Southampton. But the routes often aren't ones any sane person would take.  Rather than signs saying "London 87 miles" which goes via multiple poorly drained muddy fields by a canal and detours round several housing and industrial estates while the planners got their cyclepath quota up.  Just have more signs saying "Next Village 12 minutes" to encourage people to actually use them rather than drive when they spot them. 

@Oms - does the Vienna to Budapest stretch of Eurovelo route 6 really have no roads? We've ridden to Bratislava before (ages ago, about 2010) but heard that on the Budapest spent a lot of time dodging trucks so we didn't fancy it. Has it improved since?

Posted by: Munro Biker

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@Oms - does the Vienna to Budapest stretch of Eurovelo route 6 really have no roads? We've ridden to Bratislava before (ages ago, about 2010) but heard that on the Budapest spent a lot of time dodging trucks so we didn't fancy it. Has it improved since?

IIRC, it was mostly off road (2017). There was an area still under construction (deep gravel) at the time, but I expect it's finished now. The only bit of road I remember was trying to get into Budapest (somehow I ended up taking roads for the last 5 miles or so, not long after crossing the river on a ferry.

Tell you what I do remember -  a very long (almost desolate) stretch somewhere between Bratislava and Komarom (spelling?) where there wasn't much happening at all. No humans or cyclists. Thankfully, I stopped for a big lunch halfway through the day and couldn't finish it. I put my chips and schnitzel into my pannier and carried on.

There was absolutely nothing in Komarom (at least where I was staying), so the cold leftovers were very welcome. 😂

Oh, and there was the thunderstorm which blew the windows and doors open in a cabin that I was staying at... like the start to some horror movie,  with the eerie clatter of windows and doors that opened themselves.

Perhaps the cosmos was trying to warn me about the butt naked nudists sat at cafe, right in front of me while I was trying to eat my lunch the next day. 🤣

Quite a nice adventure. I'd do it again (without my contact lenses).