[Closed] Custom Ti Frame Thoughts

Oh, I forgot to mention my multiple cock-ups with the hydraulics 😳

The bars have internal routing for cables, thus the hydraulic hoses come out and need to go through a bit of an angle compared to cables on normal STI units. Thus it's a little awkward tightening up the olive and compression fitting after the hose has been routed. Front lever went fine, then I managed to tighten down the olive without the hose being fully inserted, so needed a new olive for a 2nd attempt. Much to my embarrassment (I'm not normally this inept) I managed to do exactly the same thing with the replacement olive 👿

A few hours later while about to fill the brakes with hydraulic fluid using the required screw-in funnel, I lost the bleeding screw 🙁 Local shop ordered me one so that and some new olives should be waiting for me when I get back to the UK this weekend for a 3rd attempt 🙂

Cheers, Rich

To me this is the perfect commuter/all year roadbike. I would love to have a project and the resources to build something like this up. At some point I'll get round to it. Surprised it hasn't attracted more interest. Nice to see how hands on you're getting.

How accurate was the frame builder? I'm looking at getting a Chinese Ti frame myself.

Speaking of custom Ti, what happened to the thread about the dodgy frame?

It was removed because the guy whose frame it actually was wasn't even aware of the thread (it was his flatmate posting it) and he had, in any case, received a full refund from the supplier.

[i]the guy whose frame it actually was wasn't even aware of the thread (it was his flatmate posting it) and he had, in any case, received a full refund from the supplier. [/i]

*oops*

It was removed because the guy whose frame it actually was wasn't even aware of the thread (it was his flatmate posting it) and he had, in any case, received a full refund from the supplier.

Didn't know he had a refund - good to hear.

I have been very impressed with the frame - initially because they were happy to include all of my variations over a normal frame without any extra cost, and then also the quality when it arrived. If I'm being critical then the rear brake mount looks a little clumsy, but unlike that Burls it appears to be true which is probably more important! I can only assume that the clearance issues with the mudguard are my doing in the design stage than a fabrication error, but I'll double check at the weekend. However, the more I think about it the more confident that some carefully cut slots in the guard will alleviate this satisfactorily.

It hasn't been massively resource hungry although apart from some cheap Chinese carbon parts and obviously the frame I haven't compromised on the spec much. Perhaps had I realised quite how heavy the Alfine front dynamo hub was I might have chosen something a little more bling, and time will tell as to whether I upgrade.... I will admit that my budget was a little above the Cycle to Work threshold 🙂

The mention of the dodgy frame made me initially think it was a reference to my other custom Ti frame thread design!

Cheers, Rich

First ride on what I have called my TiCom; Ti(tanium)Com(muter) 😀

[img] [/img]

On the recommendation of somafunk I fitted some PDW mudguards after the previous (I think Bontrager) ones were just too tight on my 28mm Duranos. Slight issue with the rear guard linkage not being quite long enough, so hopefully I'll be able to source some extra bits to get that all sorted as designed without zip-ties

[img] [/img]

The rear light was an absolute pain to get fitted inside the post, and it doesn't protrude quite as much as I'd like, but it is nice and bright, so should do the job nicely. Yet to drill the mudguard for the extra tail light, as dremmelling at midnight I thought was a little antisocial, but the cabling is all glued inside the fender ready to be wired in.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

The front is all nice and clean too, no cables visible really at all while riding.

[img] [/img]

Being able to pull nicely controlled stoppies is a bit of a novelty on a road bike, carbon rim brakes will feel woefully underpowered by comparison now...

After remembering that I should ease off the power when shifting, the Alfine was absolutely flawless. I think I could notice a bit of drag from the belt and hub, but hopefully they'll free up a bit after a few rides.

All in all, very pleased with the ride. As I had designed the frame to have identical geometry to my Dogma when matched to a longer fork, it felt familiar from the first pedal stroke. Virtually silent too, which was one of the objectives, plus pretty comfortable.

Probably my most protracted and complicated build with considerably more stumbling blocks along the way, but the finished result is worth it 🙂

Cheers, Rich

Turned out well. I like the reflective stripes, did the same on my long haul road bike and think they can look quite good, really effective anyway. Seatpost light's neat, how's the side visibility? Been thinking of something like that, not sure where/how but fixed in place and either wired to the dyno or a micro USB point.
Pretty involved build-up, good to see. I'd have the Edelux II front light for road though, really great beam pattern.

Some more reflective stripes to come - that was just 5 minutes before leaving for work this morning. The ones on the cranks are however rather distracting so I might swap them out for black reflective tape instead.

Side visibility shouldn't be too bad as the 2 lower LEDs do protrude through the post a reasonable way, but could be better, certainly. The B&M Secula will be on the rear fender later tonight. That should be pretty visible from the side, so hopefully I won't be entirely invisible. I also have some reflective paint to go on the rims which should help too. Exciting night-time flash photos to follow 😀

Yet to be installed is the mini-USB power circuit in the steerer tube to run front and rear Mobius cameras.

Cheers, Rich

I like that, a lot.

One email to Charlie the Bikemonger, and £8 later we have [url= http://www.paligap.cc/-PDW-Full-Metal-Fender-Extra-Long-Stays_7058_p ]some extra-long stays[/url] winging their way to me to sort out the rear fender 🙂

Cheers, Rich

Very nice,well thought out.

Now that looks smart 8) !
Love the finished look. How is the rear LED powered?
I might just look at building an MTB equivalent.
Keep the thread updated!

Rear LED is powered from the output of the Supernova E3 on the front, with the cabling all internal. The Secula will also be powered the same way - the cable exits from the underside of the non drive-side chainstay then runs along the inside of the rear fender.

Oh, and a picture of the other side with the cranks in the acceptable position, although I didn't rotate my wheels to the correct location!

[img] [/img]

Cheers, Rich

Looks even better,you can't see that front brake cable 😛

Absolutely love it. 😆

A few minutes with the Dremmel last night and the fender light is fitted

[img] [/img]

It has a stand-light built in, so doesn't rely purely on the capacitance of the E3 front light, which appears to drop the output when stationary, which isn't ideal when stopped at traffic lights etc. As such this light stays nice and bright for several minutes after coming to a halt.

I am also pleased to report that the mudguards performed splendidly this morning

[img] [/img]

A rather quiet bike rack at work 🙂

Cheers, Rich

You leave your bike in a rack outside 😮 ?!
Brave commute with those tyres.
Looks fantastic though.

Ive been very slow to this. Just read through this thread. Brilliant build. Well done for something that really is inspirational.

You leave your bike in a rack outside ?!

I joined this community just to post and compliment your bike. Not just the finished product but the effort, ingenuity and perseverance you've put into getting it right. I love the simplicity, cleaness but also the robustness and sense of utility of your final product.

To be honest I have been mulling almost exactly the same kind of build for a few months. I've looked at the potential of designing a bike and having Titan produce it. I've got a bit stuck agonising about an EBB vs sliding dropouts - a neverending hellride of differing opinions. How is the EBB holding up for you so far?

The build I'm thinking of is essentially the exact same spec as yours except I am not going for the belt drive and I'm looking for a slightly more horizontal top tube although, like you, I'm thinking of basing it off an existing frame I like. Having said all that I have no experience of bike frame design and don't seem to be getting anywhere with hours on bikecad.

The other difference I think to you is that I intend to have caliper brake mounts as well - just in case I decide to sack off the discs at a later date.

Can I ask why you opted for very slightly curved seat stays as the approach the dropouts?

Was the pic in the snow from today? I woke up and saw the snow and convinced myself that was enough not to ride to work today!

Manners,

It certainly has taken a little while from first concept idea through to first ride! As I was in India for the majority of that time I had plenty of time to research the various options, so there was no risk of rushing into buying lots of components which weren't compatible.

If you don't bother with belt drive then chainstay clearance and chainline won't be so much of a concern for you.

Having had some fun with the EBB in my TinBred I was slightly cautious about the EBB route again, but more options are available now and as I was starting with a clean sheet I could have whatever I wanted. The Niner BioCentric seems to be a nice solution, and I wasn't keen on sliding dropouts with disc brake mounts.

The curved seat-stays seem to be a Titan thing, it wasn't something I specifically asked for, but they probably give a little extra compliance in the rear.

If you would like some assistance then feel free to send me an email via the address in my profile and I would be more than happy to help. If the geometry of your existing frame is available online somewhere then knocking together a drawing for Titan should be pretty quick.

Snow was today, it was a choice of either the MTB and a wet arse or slipping around on the TiCom and staying dry! Wasn't too slippy slidey and I stayed dry!

Cheers, Rich

That looks awesome - really nicely done. Good to know the R785 Di2 levers work with the Di2 Alfine (cogs start whirring in my head... if I had a commute any longer than the length of my hallway I'd be tempted).

I would be very concerned about the holes in the seat post - as neat as the light looks. A carbon seatpost breaking is not something you even want to think about - ask Jan ?ehula.

I suspect that the reason for the curve in the seat stays is to allow sufficient clearance for a chainstay mounted disc caliper. Yours has ample clearance because it's hydraulic and you could have used straight stays. However with a mechanical brake like and Avid BB7 you need a curve for clearance.

turboferret - I'll definitely be in touch for any advice and help you can provide. Right now I need to test ride some bikes to find a frame shape and size that I like to base my design on it.

A couple of other things I've been wondering about your bike that I thought I'd post in case other people are interested;

1.) Are the internal cable holes sharp edged? On one of the other builds you mentioned http://www.spanner.org.uk/2013/03/shanes-belt-drive-titanium-commuter-by-xacd/ the guy says he finds the XACD internal cabling inserts finicky but I wonder if this is preferable to just a hole? What are your thoughts?

2.) You managed to route the Di2 stuff through the EBB but still have a cable running on the outside underneath the BB shell - was this because that cable couldn't make a tight turn internally?

3.) Whats the weight of your bike frame? On this build http://www.spanner.org.uk/2013/08/russells-di2-custom-titanium-road-bike-from-titan/ the guy says that Titan don't do double butted tubing whereas XACD do and he felt that he would maybe opt for the butting next time to slightly decrease the weight of the bike.

Thanks.

The TiCom now has a pair of Ti bottle cages 🙂

[IMG] [/IMG]

Cheers, Rich

1.) Are the internal cable holes sharp edged? On one of the other builds you mentioned http://www.spanner.org.uk/2013/03/shanes-belt-drive-titanium-commuter-by-xacd/ the guy says he finds the XACD internal cabling inserts finicky but I wonder if this is preferable to just a hole? What are your thoughts?

I will admit that I should probably have put a little more thought into the internal cable holes. They are indeed sharp-edged, and a better solution would be to have them smoothed and a small reinforcement ring welded onto the outside. I don't have any inserts, the electrical cables have small glands to protect them, the hydraulic hoses are just sat against the sharp edges unprotected. My theory is that there shouldn't be too much movement in these so hopefully they shouldn't wear through too quickly.

2.) You managed to route the Di2 stuff through the EBB but still have a cable running on the outside underneath the BB shell - was this because that cable couldn't make a tight turn internally?

I have a bunch of wires running inside the EBB, (Di2, power for lights, power for cameras) but the hydraulic hose for the rear brake goes externally. I didn't think that there would be enough space for it or that it would like being bent around the tight angles required.

3.) Whats the weight of your bike frame? On this build http://www.spanner.org.uk/2013/08/russells-di2-custom-titanium-road-bike-from-titan/ the guy says that Titan don't do double butted tubing whereas XACD do and he felt that he would maybe opt for the butting next time to slightly decrease the weight of the bike.

I forgot to weigh the frame when it arrived, or if I did I didn't write down the weight. The overall bike has come out at 11.5kg or 25.3lb, so it's no featherweight for sure. The Alfine hubs are pretty hefty beasts though, so the majority of the weight is in the wheels. The frame tubing isn't butted, but the difference in price between XACD and Titan was so significant that I didn't think the increase was justified to shave a few grammes.

Feel free to keep the questions coming!

Cheers, Rich

That looks awesome - really nicely done. Good to know the R785 Di2 levers work with the Di2 Alfine (cogs start whirring in my head... if I had a commute any longer than the length of my hallway I'd be tempted).

Yup, there was some concern in the back of my mind about compatibility, and I did fully expect to need to update the firmware at the very least to get all the bike talking to each other properly, but in the end it all worked fine straight out the box 🙂

I would be very concerned about the holes in the seat post - as neat as the light looks. A carbon seatpost breaking is not something you even want to think about - ask Jan ?ehula.

I fully appreciate that the holes are a risk, however in my experience carbon breaks relatively slowly and you get some warning about an imminent failure. Also as this is just for pottering to and from work not for epic round-the-world adventures or hard-core racing, I think both the chances and consequences of failure are relatively low.

I suspect that the reason for the curve in the seat stays is to allow sufficient clearance for a chainstay mounted disc caliper. Yours has ample clearance because it's hydraulic and you could have used straight stays. However with a mechanical brake like and Avid BB7 you need a curve for clearance.

Sounds about right. I hadn't given it a huge amount of consideration really, certainly not enough to query the drawing and change the stays to straight ones!

Cheers, Rich

turboferret

Thanks for the responses so far. Really useful stuff.

But I do have yet more questions!

1.) How many holes for internal wiring are there on the frame? I've tried counting them up from your photos but its difficult to tell, especially as I think you have holes for you internal powering of lights and cameras. This is my current hole count for my proposed build:

3 x Holes for Di2
One hole at top of down tube on right side for entry,
One hole in seat post for potential front derailleur if I decide to mount one in the future,
One hole in drive side chain stay for Alfine hub or potentially rear derailleur in future

4 x Holes for rear disc brake
One hole top of down tube left side
One hole on underside of down tube near bottom bracket
One re-entry hole at beginning of off side chain stay
One hole in off side chain stay next to disc mount

The only issue I have with these holes is that its a lot of potential holes that could be misplaced in the building process in China and also I want to leave an option open to resort to caliper brakes if I fancy it in the future which makes me think that this type of internal rear brake routing makes more sense:

[img] [/img]

2.) Did you build up your wheel for the Alfiine hub yourself? If not how much did it cost to get the wheel built with that as the hub.

3.) What are all the component parts needed for the Alfine system - I can't seem to find a clear answer on this on the web. I assume; battery, shifter, and the Alfine hub and a computer, gear indictor. You state on another page that you can plug into the gear indicator for charging so you don't need to take the battery out.

4.) Were there any special requirements for the seat tube to house the battery?

Sorry to keep badgering you and thanks for all your answers. Also no-one has asked yet how the ride is actually going - are you enjoying it!?

1.) How many holes for internal wiring are there on the frame? I've tried counting them up from your photos but its difficult to tell, especially as I think you have holes for you internal powering of lights and cameras. This is my current hole count for my proposed build:

3 x Holes for Di2
One hole at top of down tube on right side for entry,
One hole in seat post for potential front derailleur if I decide to mount one in the future,
One hole in drive side chain stay for Alfine hub or potentially rear derailleur in future

Exit hole for hub:
[img] [/img]

4 x Holes for rear disc brake
One hole top of down tube left side
One hole on underside of down tube near bottom bracket
One re-entry hole at beginning of off side chain stay
One hole in off side chain stay next to disc mount

Yes, again, that's all you need for routing the same as I have, assuming you have an internal battery.

[img] [/img]

Here you can see the rear brake hose along with a redundant hole adjacent on the DT, as I wasn't entirely confident how much clearance I would have inside the BioCentric EBB. The top right hole into the drive-side CS is the cable for my fender mounted rear light.
[img] [/img]

exit hole for rear brake:
[img] [/img]

The only issue I have with these holes is that its a lot of potential holes that could be misplaced in the building process in China

this shouldn't be a concern - Titan will show a cross-section of the frame every point where you have a hole, showing exactly where you'll have everything

and also I want to leave an option open to resort to caliper brakes if I fancy it in the future which makes me think that this type of internal rear brake routing makes more sense:

That would give you more flexibility, but won't be quite as neat. However, there isn't any reason why you shouldn't have a few redundant holes, assuming they aren't in silly places stress-wise.

2.) Did you build up your wheel for the Alfiine hub yourself? If not how much did it cost to get the wheel built with that as the hub.

I build pretty much all of my wheels myself. The groupset was from Germany along with the spokes, rims from China, and the 2nd set of specialised nipples from SJS Cycles.

3.) What are all the component parts needed for the Alfine system - I can't seem to find a clear answer on this on the web. I assume; battery, shifter, and the Alfine hub and a computer, gear indictor. You state on another page that you can plug into the gear indicator for charging so you don't need to take the battery out.

You need, starting from the front:

Shifters
cable ~250mm
gear indicator
cable ~900mm
junction box
cable ~600mm
battery
cable ~500mm
Di2 Alfine actuator

To charge the battery you will also need one of these:

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-internal-seatpost-mount-di2-battery-charger-68464.html ]Merlin appear to be doing a good deal on battery and charger together at the moment[/url]

4.) Were there any special requirements for the seat tube to house the battery?

You can get little battery holding bungs which let the battery hang from the bottom of the seat tube, something like this:

[img] [/img]

I can't seem to find a link for what I bought at the moment

Sorry to keep badgering you and thanks for all your answers. Also no-one has asked yet how the ride is actually going - are you enjoying it!?

If I'm perfectly honest I found it rather sluggish and hard work last week, but I think I had the belt too tight. I've slackened it off a bit now so I've got a lot less resistance in the driveline. Hopefully that'll make a significant difference.

Overall I'm very happy though. Mudguards were most welcome last week, and not having to make sure any lights are charged is very convenient. As the geometry is identical to my road bike it felt familiar as soon as I got on, although being about 3 1/2 kg heavier, I can tell which bike I'm on!

One thing which was annoying me was a rattly front brake lever. This may have been because the adjuster was wound all the way out, so I've now put a tiny bit of foam on the top of the lever, between it and the stop pin:

[img] [/img]

I am yet to test my 5V USB power supply circuit - this is ready to be inserted into the steerer tube

[img] [/img]

Cheers, Rich

One thing I've noticed a couple of times, and perhaps should have considered during the design phase was toe overlap. I have a bit on my road bike, but obviously with mudguards there is more. Nearly caught me out once 😳

Something to consider if you are designing around a frame you like, but haven't fitted guards to previously.

Cheers, Rich

Hi Rich! I'm another one who's just signed up to the forum just to say thank you for sharing your design & build process and congratulations on the amazing finished bike!

I stumbled across the thread while researching custom titanium frames last year and I've been popping back periodically to follow your progress. You've given me so many ideas my own project! I'll also incorporate a Biocentric BB, belt drive and disc brakes (although mechanical) into a custom Titan frame. I love the integration and I have a similar aim to keep everything as tidy and hidden as possible. It's a slow burner and I'm still finalising the frame geometry before I even begin contact with Titan, but I hope to post a pic or thread link here when I kick things off later in the year.

Am I correct in thinking that you are UK based? Can I ask where you sourced the Biocentric BB and the Gates belt drive parts? My best Googling has only really turned up US sources so I wondered if you had found the same.

I am indeed UK based now, although for the majority of the design and procurement phase I was actually in India. This was probably a major reason why I didn't rush anything as there were periods of several months at a time where I wouldn't be in the UK to play with anything I bought!

I got a local bike shop to order me a BioCentric EBB - CycleWorks in Leatherhead were more than happy to assist.

I ordered my Gates stuff from [url= http://www.velorution.com/ ]Velorution[/url] - email them gretta@velorution.com or jay@velorution.com They were a bit flexible on price too - if you don't ask, you don't get! The 55t front sprocket took ages as it hadn't been manufactured at the time I first enquired.

I was slightly concerned yesterday when my gears stopped working half-way home from work. Fortunately my route isn't too hilly so being stuck in a middle gear wasn't a problem. Furthermore it was a simple fix, and the exact same issue I'd had on the first ride after fitting Di2 to my road bike a few years ago. Going over a couple of harsh bumps at speed my right shifter slipped down the bars a tiny amount (the inside of the carbon bars are smooth instead of slightly rough, thus you need the clamp super tight). As the Di2 cable was tight under the tape, it pulled just enough to disconnect it from the socket. 2 minutes with an allen key and all was OK again.

Be aware that the combination of the dynamo hub, belt drive and Alfine hub make the bike noticeably slower than a conventional road bike. I'm not sure how much each component adds to the overall amount, but I certainly wouldn't plan to race this bike, and it would probably be hard work on a group ride too. However for pottering to and from work where an extra 5% journey time is irrelevant, I am more than happy to pay the price for the convenience of everything else. Hopefully it'll make me faster when I do jump on my MTB or road bike 🙂

Cheers, Rich

There's quite a lot going on in that area.
A hole, a bridge and some heavy crimping, and it's on the driveside.

[img] [/img]

Thanks for the tips!

I think I am going to other way to you in trying to strip everything off the bike that isn't [i]absolutely[/i] necessary! I'm planning on a single speed set up with bull horn bars, TT brake levers and an integrated seatpost. No rack or mud guard mounts and no lights or dynamo. I'm hoping for around a <7.5kg build.

The idea is that it'll be an 'around town' bike that I can ride with my family, but would also keep up on a winter club ride. However, mostly I hope it'll be a 'project' bike that will make me smile every time I ride it or look at it!

Brant,

thanks for the pointer, however it's plated not crimped, although that might make it worse given the heat and inherent stress build-up as a result!

Cheers, Rich

turbo,

Thanks so much for the detailed responses. I'm knee deep in bikecad at the moment, whilst trying to take into account the detailed bits and pieces which I've been asking you about. The toe overlap with mudguards is annoying but to be honest, from my work in bikecad, some toe overlap is inevitable if you want the rest of the geometry to fit with mudguards. I have a little toe overlap now on my current bike thanks to mudguards and once you get used it to it its fine. Toe overlap is not ideal and seems design flaw-ish but with mudguards its part of the game of having the right geometry. Thats my twopennys - hope it makes you feel less like toe overlap was an oversight.

Had a blip today in "design-time" when I almost threw plans to have an EBB and go sliding dropouts...

Toe overlap is not ideal and seems design flaw-ish but with mudguards its part of the game of having the right geometry.

Change the wheel size 😉

Turboferret what was the reasoning behind the slightly flattened chainstay - looks cool but is it also to help with heel clearance/crank clearance?

[img] [/img]

Also in terms of having a chainstay mounted disc caliper - was this purely an aesthetic thing or a functional one? Are there any considerations for mounting the disc brake there?

Also does anyone know if there are any practical implications for slight curvature in the chainstays and/or seatstays like this:

[img] [/img]

Toe overlap is not ideal and seems design flaw-ish but with mudguards its part of the game of having the right geometry.

Change the wheel size

Perfect, I'll stick a Brompton wheel on the front 😆

Cheers, Rich

Turboferret what was the reasoning behind the slightly flattened chainstay - looks cool but is it also to help with heel clearance/crank clearance?

That is for clearance for the belt-drive sprocket. If you check the [url= http://www.gatescarbondrive.com/~/media/CDS/Documents/Gates-Tech-Bulletin-Di2.pdf ]Gates beltline document[/url] you'll see what clearance you need, and the Di2 sits further inboard due to the size of the shifter unit.

Curved chainstays and to a certain extent seatstays are generally for heel clearance.

Cheers, Rich

Perfect, I'll stick a Brompton wheel on the front

I'm riding 650B x 44c at the moment. It's great. Same wheel radius as 700x23, but with more cush. Tongue in cheek name is B-

rich,

I saw these today and thought of your sharp edged holes:

[img] [/img]

Actually think this is a nice way of doing the cable holes - saves trying to explain to Chinese manufacturer about nice brake inserts and the size of these inserts. Although these do seem to be for Di2 and Mechanical only - not hydraulic.

So, I finally received all of my stuff which has been shipped home from India, among which was my bike stand. This has made all things bike fettling related much easier 🙂

I had thought that there was considerably more drag in my drivetrain than there should have been, and with the bike in the stand it was much easier to diagnose.

[img] [/img]

View from the top where you can see that the Di2 actuator isn't sitting parallel to the belt, with some light visible towards the back of the bike and none at the front.

[img] [/img]

Sprocket looking very polished

[img] [/img]

Pretty clear where it has been polished from 😮

I haven't really spent any time deciding how to rectify this, whether taking an angle grinder to the sprocket to reduce the width slightly is a good idea, or perhaps a better solution is to determine why the Di2 actuator isn't sitting straight. There may be a clearance issue with the chain/seat stays and perhaps a small shim would alleviate the issue.

The good news is that I should be able to liberate a little more free speed from the bike very easily 😀

Cheers, Rich

At least you found the source of the drag. Not sure why it wouldn't be set straight but then I'm not familiar with any of this gear.....yet. Although I think I would be inclined to determine why the actuator isn't sitting straight to start with before resorting to angle grinder.

I've been thinking about the bottom bracket getting ready to touch base with china. If I'm not doing belt drive do I need to worry about any specifics to the BB - I want a shell compatible with PF30 - do you think this will be ok with alfine di2?

Some of the drag at any rate....

I'm not sure I want to angle-grind the frame at the dropouts, as that is the cause for the actuator not sitting straight! I think a small spacer will be the long-term solution sitting between the actuator and the dropout.

I haven't been converted to PF bottom brackets, apart from the BB86 which came on my tri bike. Having said that assuming you aren't needing an EBB, the type of interface shouldn't really be of any concern, assuming you are happy with it constantly squeaking 😉

Alfine Di2 shouldn't be any different from any other drivetrain really, apart from having a fixed chainline. The chainline isn't dependant on the BB interface, so you are at liberty to go with whatever you like.

Cheers, Rich

Rich,

Have you had that much squeaking with your EBB?

No squeaks at all from mine. Perhaps I wasn't hugely clear above - it's the PF BBs which are renowned for squeaking, not related to the EBB.

I have had older EBBs slip, but this Niner Biocentric is a nice design and works very well.

Cheers, Rich

Have you been able to sort out the clearance now? What's the drag like now?

I did spend a few minutes with a file the other day and that seems to have improved things slightly, but I think a small washer between the DI2 actuator and the frame is the long-term solution so that it will sit totally parallel with the hub. Normally you only have an 11/12t sprocket running that close to the frame so clearance is totally different to a big plastic DI2 hunk, perhaps I should have considered the chainstay/seatstay profile slightly more carefully.

It's still a bit draggy compared to a normal bike, but slightly improved I think.

Cheers, Rich

On a similar idea, but without concealed cables, and a lot more £££: [url= http://www.bespokecycling.com/blog/posts/indy-fab-club-racer-alfine-di2-build ]Indy Fab Alfine di2 with belt[/url]

Can I ask how you got the dynamo cable past the Di2 battery in the seatpost?

I'm wondering for a custom build if I could do something similar, having the light mounted on the back of the seat/rails. But i've got an internal battery to contend with too.

[i]Change the wheel size [/i]

Fork rake?

cyclosis - not sure if I took a photo at the time, but I cut a small slot in the rubber bung/battery mount going inside the seatpost. This made it fairly straight-forward to fit a cable (or 2 in my case) up in addition to the battery.

[url= http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/deda-elementi-deda-di2-battery-holder/rp-prod120935 ]This[/url] is the battery mount and you can see there is a fair amount of meat to play with.

Cheers, Rich

Last week I got caught out for the 2nd time with a flat battery on the way to work. This left me in a spinny little gear as I was going uphill as it shifted it's last. Quite frustrating for the remainder of the ride, but fortunately after being sat in the sun for 8 hours the battery recovered enough to get a couple of shifts and get me into a middlish gear for the ride home.

The issue is that I had hidden the gear/battery indicator and charging port in the seat tube as I didn't really want it on display on my bars. This does mean you don't have much warning for a dying battery, and to charge it you need to remove the seat-post.

Therefore I decided to do the sensible thing and put the indicator where Shimano intended from the start!

I don't think it looks too bad and doesn't interfere with holding the tops of the bars.

[img] [/img]

Cheers, Rich

Rich, now you've had some time and miles on the bike, what are your thoughts on Alfine and belt? Are the weight and difficulty compromises worthwhile for reduced maintenance?

The weight isn't an issue day-to-day, although my route to and from work isn't particularly lumpy, so this might be more of a consideration to others. Having said that, it's mainly the weight distribution which makes it feel heavy at the back. Had I wanted to save lots of weight I wouldn't have fitted aluminium mudguards etc.

The drag isn't negligible. I had expected there to be a bit of drag with the dynamo/belt/hub gear however it is a bit more than I anticipated. The road bike does feel lovely by comparison, and I don't try and keep up with speedy roadies on my commute when I'm on the commuter.

Having said that, it is just for pottering to and from work, I certainly won't be doing any sportives or particular long rides, so all it means is that I get more training daily 🙂

Knowing that I never need to lube the chain after a horrid wet ride, or charge any batteries for lights (ignoring the 3-monthly Di2 charging) is great. The fact that the brakes work perfectly whatever the weather too is another bonus.

There are a couple of minor things I would probably do differently were I to do it again, firstly being toe overlap, another drain hole in the bottom bracket shell, and probably reinforcing the cable holes to reduce the chance of stress-riser cracks sometime down the line.

I would also probably have spent a little bit more on a lighter front dynamo hub as the Shimano unit is a hefty old thing, albeit cheap.

Braking on the front over bumpy surfaces can get some juddering from the fork, so I might need to tweak my headset.

All in all, I'm happy. I was aware of the compromises I was making and I'd do the same again, but your mileage may vary.

Cheers, Rich

Having said that, it is just for pottering to and from work, I certainly won't be doing any sportives or particular long rides, so all it means is that I get more training daily

That's exactly how to look at it, I use my heavy racked 'n guarded touring bike for commuting and round town load lugging and trailer pulling, it makes every ride on the light road bike seem like I'm not even trying 🙂

Have really enjoyed this thread as you've kept coming back with updates, which is nice, often threads like this start off well and then die off leaving many unanswered questions!

On the Toeverlap issue, do you think you'd really bother dealing with this if you were to do this again or is it a minor issue you'd ignore (I'm not tall and all my bikes have TO issues once guards are fitted to some degree). If you were going to solve it do you think you'd do it with offset, a wheelbase/toptube adjustment (and consequently shorter stem) or consider 650B wheels similar to older (mostly french) rando bikes?

Glad some people appreciate the updates, it often seems I'm just replying to myself!

On the toe overlap I'm not sure how I would address it, if at all. The bike feels identical to my road bike from a geometry/contact point perspective, which I really like, so I might just ignore it. It isn't often too much of a problem, just the occasional tight low-speed manoeuvring when I forget that I shouldn't have my feet at the 3 + 9 o'clock position. I doubt smaller wheels would be my solution as that would significantly reduce my choice of rubber.

Cheers, Rich

@turboferret, It's been great reading through this thread. I've been looking for a bike that is almost the same as the one you've built.

* Carbon belt drive
* Internal gear hub
* Internal cable routing
* Hydraulic disc brakes
* Drop bars
* Mounts for fenders
* Mounts for rack -- not sure I'll use these, but I want the option

As near as I can tell, Di2 is the only option for internal gear hub + drop bars + hydraulic disc.

I'd like to see if it's possible to route the cables from the shifters, inside the bars, inside the stem, down into the steerer, and out the back of the steerer into the down tube. I'm assuming this will mean I need a Ti fork so that it can have the appropriate holes machined without loss of structural integrity.

Have you managed to work out the source of the drag in your system? The biggest concern I have about the list I have there is the drag introduced by the hub gear & hub dynamo. I ride an aluminum road bike right now, so I'm worried I will get frustrated by the extra drag.

I like the suggestion about cutting Di2 cables and using only half of them. I assume that also means that you didn't need to use the whole set of junctions. Out of curiosity, did you bother attaching the cables for the left shifter?

Is there anything you would change? Or any advice for a first-time custom build?

I think you're right, the cable pull for non-Di2 IGH isn't the same as typical Shimano road. You either go with the Versa lever or similar and don't get hydraulic, or go with the 105 hydro levers and have the wrong cable-pull. I'm pretty sure I've seen some cunning devices which you can put in-line to adjust cable pull with cams/levers etc, but that doesn't necessarily lend itself to a nice clean fully internal routing.

I wanted Di2 anyway, so that wasn't a problem, although it did mean buying the most expensive levers around at the time!

Routing cables inside bar/stem/steerer would involve drilling some holes at contact points, where you have clamping forces. I'm not shy of drilling holes in things, but in the centre of my bars where they're clamped - not so sure.... My one-piece stem/bar combo would in theory be easier, apart from the fact that they already have internal guides for the cables to pop out the bottom of them, so I'd have to destroy the guides to do so.

You would also have to drill the steerer, which wouldn't be quite so much of a concern strength-wise, but would probably be tricky in terms of a star-fangled-nut or internal clamp being where the hose/cable would come out of the stem.

Also bear in mind that you would have to remove the hose/cable before making any adjustments etc. Routing the cables to the down-tube would potentially reduce the angle which you could rotate your bars before damaging the hose or pulling it tight. I know Cervelo have internal hydraulic hose routing on the P5, so it must be possible, but I also know that they are a nightmare to work on, with lots of proprietary components, so not necessarily straight-forward.

While elegant, personally I'm not sure whether the benefits would be worth the extra effort required during the build, future maintenance/adjustment issues, and compromises in strength in critical areas.

I did have some additional drag to begin with between the rear cog and the Di2 actuator, which was sat very close and not quite straight. A few minutes with an angle grinder created a little extra clearance, and all has been rose since. Having said that, the belt, IGH and dynamo hub all create more drag than their standard equivalents. Each in isolation isn't significant, and probably wouldn't be particularly noticeable, but combined, the bike does feel a little sluggish. My carbon road bike does fly by comparison. However, this is for pottering 20km each direction to and from work, not for racing, and adds a maximum of 5 minutes to each journey. It can be a bit frustrating when I'm tired or fighting a headwind, or when someone fast overtakes me to be on my 'slow' bike, but it's all good training for when it matters 🙂

I didn't use any standard Shimano Di2 junctions in the build. I made my own from servo cables (the same cables I used to extend the Di2 cabling) as there isn't anything fancy in the junctions which needs to be replicated.

I don't have anything to connect to the left shifter, so it's completely unplugged. Perhaps there is potential down the line for something exciting like lasers or canons....

I would make a couple of very minor changes were I to do it all again, firstly a little more tyre clearance for the rear. There is sufficient width, but the mud-guard sits very close to the top edge of the tyre which means I can't run anything bigger than 28mm. I also didn't consider toe overlap with the guards. Changing that would have altered the geometry away from what I wanted, so I might not have bothered anyway, but it was something I overlooked. Not fallen off as a result of it yet!

Advice - go for it! Think carefully what you want, and what is feasible. If you are after anything deviating from the norm, and are having fabrication done at a distance, be very clear what you want, and make sure you can communicate that without interpretation issues. All the strange bits I could solid-model and send snap-shots and detailed drawings to ensure no confusion.

Also this thread is an example of my brain-storming and crowd-sourcing in terms of ideas/feasibility checks. Be prepared to iterate a few times to get exactly what you want/what is realistic.

Cheers, Rich

[i] turboferret - Member
On the toe overlap I'm not sure how I would address it, if at all.
POSTED 2 MONTHS AGO[/i]

Before that ^ post I had already suggested replacing the fork for same model with increased rake (ime forks can be supplied as same model with different rake dims) or a different fork, longer rake.

I have a bike with 50mm rake forks and it feels and rides just swell.

Also, I seem to have missed the crank arm length you're using, perhaps replace for slightly shorter ones?

Just a suggestion
🙂

My fallback for hydraulic brakes is versa levers with TRP HyRD brakes. It looks like the price difference between the ST-S705 + 2 TRP HyRD and ST-R785/BR-R785 is minimal, so if I decide to go down the Di2 road, the ST-R785/BR-R785 combo is a given.

Strangely, due to the startlingly high price of Versa 11 speed shifters, it looks like kitting out a bike with Di2 Alfine 11 AND ST-R785/BR-R785 is actually less expensive than Versa 11 + Alfine 11 + TRP HY/RD. That makes a pretty easy decision.

I had already been wondering about how to prevent the steerer from shearing the cables if there were a hole between the steerer and the down tube. I think you've managed to convince me that for the marginal improvement in aesthetic, it's not worth the hassle.

My bike would be used primarily from commuting, some hauling of kid's trailer, and running to shops. A little extra drag in exchange for lower maintenance overhead is fine, but I wonder if i can save a little drag by running a 6V battery instead of a hub dynamo. I suspect that for the weight of an alfine hub, I can insert an awfully large 6V battery. The ideal, of course, would be lights that connect to the Di2 bus! I don't think Shimano's caught on to that one yet, nor recharging your Di2 battery from your hub dynamo--which also seems like an obvious optimisation.

Thanks for the pointers about guard clearance and toe overlap. I'd already made a note to watch those after reading through your thread.

It is a little bit crazy to have a dynamo hub powering lights, but have to charge the Di2 battery separately, but that's what I do at the moment. LiPo batteries can be a bit fussy about how they're charged, so I didn't want to take too many risks there, especially as the Shimano batteries aren't quite as cheap as a typical 18650 cell from Hong Kong!

I would be a little wary about running lights etc from a battery wired into the Di2 loom. I'm sure you're aware that the new Shimano system runs CANBUS and has signal and power on a pair of wires. Not sure how it would react to having other components also wired in. Who knows, it might be fine - you can pioneer it for us all 🙂

You are right though, the Alfine dynamo hub is a pretty heavy lump, and something which I would probably have swapped out for something a bit lighter had I fully appreciated, but I don't think it's worth rebuilding my wheel now to do so.

Not having the nasty graunchy grinding chain on a Monday morning after chucking the bike away wet on a Friday evening is certainly a bonus of a belt!

Cheers, Rich

I don't have anything to connect to the left shifter, so it's completely unplugged. Perhaps there is potential down the line for something exciting like lasers or canons.

my vote goes to a Raleigh Wildcat/Vektar style box of sound effects 🙂

Dear Rich TurboFerret,

I've been admiring your bike build and I'm so impressed that I feel itchy to build one like yours. You're very detail oriented, your bike looks like a piece of art. Love all the details as you go above and beyond with the beautiful internal cable routing and reliability.
If you don't mind, I wanted to ask you a couple questions before so I could avoid any mistake.
I believe you've been with your bike for more than 6 months. What do you think it will be next bike build ? Do you feel there is any room for improvement? I've read through the whole thread so I already understood you would fix the toe overlap issue, and have a lighter dynamo hub, besides that anything else ?
How's the belt reliability, is it really maintenance free or you would still consider a chain ?
Should I worry about chainstay stiffness as Gates recommends and Rohloff requires ? [url= http://www.gatescarbondrive.com/frame%20stiffness%20test%20general%20instructions ]Frame Stiffness Test[/url]
Do you have any issue with chains slippage ? Tension ? Would you beef up the chainstays ?
How about belt alignment, I don't know much about frame geometry, how did you ensure your rear sprocket aligned perfect with front belt ring ?
I've read about your EBB choice and the change from 68mm to 63mm to compensate, I've thought about using this EBB: [url= http://wheelsmfg.com/eccentric-bottom-bracket-for-bb30-24mm-shimano-cranks-red.html ]Wheels EBB[/url] . Should be similar to the one you got from niner. What do you think ?
Does your EBB have enough play to give chain tension on multiple sprocket combinations or is that a concern ? What's your BB Shell width ? Are you using the Niner EBB Biocentric II ?
How do you like the Alfine Crank, would you recommend

The super-commuter I aspire, would be more based on a cyclocross geometry. I feel that I could try cyclocross on it besides commuting. While the main goal being commuting.
[list]Few changes I find interest:
[*]I would sacrifice the dynamos for rechargeable batteries. I don't mind leaving it charging as the bike parks inside the apartment at night. So it should save a couple watts of resistance.[/*]
[*]Add mount for rack, if ever needed.[/*]
[*]Add tire clearance for 35mm mud tires.[/*]
[*]Everything else would be like yours. Alfine Di2, hydraulic, internal cable routing, mudguards.[/*]
[/list]
What would you do to reduce weight/resistance while keeping reliability ?

I don't think I would do anything about to overlap, that would change the geometry, it's just something to be aware of during low-speed manoeuvring.

Belt seems to be running fine, according to Garmin Connect I've ridden ~3500km on the bike this year with no belt-related issues at all. Sprocket wear doesn't seem bad either. No maintenance on the belt at all. While a chain would certainly reduce the drag a bit, I would need to lube it occasionally, so pros and cons.

I didn't really worry too much about frame stiffness at the time of speccing the frame, but the rear triangle is all plain gauge tubing of fairly beefy wall thickness, so it certainly seems rigid enough. I'm not a massive powerhouse of a rider, being only ~63kg, so I'm not stressing it as much as some riders might. I'm generally riding at a relatively sensible pace, but certainly don't hold back at times, and I've never had any issues sprinting up hills etc.

I knew alignment would be critical, so I checked the belt-line on the Gates website for the Alfine Di2 sprockets. They have a specific Di2 sprocket which changes the alignment to keep the belt away from the actuator, which does bring the belt quite far inboard. I went with the Alfine crankset as this was a known factor which they design the front sprocket around. Due to the belt-line being so low I needed a very narrow drive-side chainstay.

The Biocentric was suggested by triple_s on page 1, and that's what I've used, albeit slightly modified to fit the 63mm BB shell. The Wheels EBB looks pretty similar, working on the same principle of clamping on the outside of the shell.

The EBB gives just the right amount of adjustability based on the Gates website, but I did tweak the chainstay length slightly to suit the belt length over my original spec. I can't use any different size sprockets, but I have the full range of my road bike with what I have fitted, so I can't think of a scenario where I would want to change.

The Alfine crank isn't particularly exciting, but I have no complaints. It does exactly what I want, is cheap and was guaranteed to work straight out of the box.

Without the belt and dynamo, the IGH might be an advantage for really muddy CX racing where normal gears might struggle, but I would have thought that most of the time a dérailleur would be faster.

I do have rack mounts, so can add a rack later if I want.

Tyre clearance would be something I would certainly change, along with reinforcement rings around my internal cable holes. Nothing much else springs to mind.

A fair amount of weight could be saved with butted frame tubing and choice of components, at a cost. I think the only change to the spec I would make were I to do it again would be a lighter front hub. Everything else is fit for purpose. It's a utilitarian machine to get to and from work, and it does that pretty well.

Cheers, Rich

I'm in the process of building my n+1 formula busting bike and I'm really interested in what all the knowledge on this older thread has to say.

I'm wanting to run hydraulic shimano disc, thru hubs, internal cables and rack/guard fittings. I'm pretty sure I've shoe-horned it all in but am hinged on two [img]http://[/img][url=http://]nulloptions.

1. Run the r\derailluer and brake along the top tube then seat stay with either r785 or rs785 calipers. But will this foul on my guard and rack mountings?

2. Run the rear derailleur through the top tube then seat stay and then the brake through the down tube and chain stay. My concern here is the weakening of the CS at the hole next to the BB?

Can anyone shine any experience on this or any other tweaks I may need to do on my frame?

Thanks in advance.

Will

This forum should support pictures. Magrela is ready, rides great and fits like a glove.

[img] http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=508181&d=1457307917 [/img]