[Closed] Cotic Rocket update from Cy

STW really isn't a representative sample of the UK cycling public. To suggest that FS bikes were rare and Inbreds common 5 years ago is to ignore what's actually been going on.

I don't agree, I reckon the first really popular FS bikes were the monocoque enduro and the stumpjumper that folowed it, then the Giant VT? So that's 2002 onwards, and even then I remember people having them but they were the minority in any group and didn't ride them as much as their HT's.

Still seems like only the last 5 years or so when you could go out for a ride and be in the minority on a hardtail. And that still coencided with me moving from the Peaks to Berkshire, when I went back upto North Yorkshire 26" hardtails seemed to be the prefered choice again.

And you can shut up as well......
🙂

[img] [/img]

The advent of 650 has delayed my next mtb purchase a bit

Now waiting for the collapse/abandonment of 29", when I'll bag me a bargin (a bit like those oranges the other day)

Now waiting for the collapse/abandonment of 29"

Not gonna happen.

Can't believe we're talking about this, poor Cy, again. 😳

Still seems like only the last 5 years or so when you could go out for a ride and be in the minority on a hardtail. And that still coencided with me moving from the Peaks to Berkshire, when I went back upto North Yorkshire 26" hardtails seemed to be the prefered choice again.

You've really got to feel for Cy and the Cotic team. The Rocket statement earlier this week and now the Soul275 paint issues:
http://www.cotic.co.uk/news/

I'd tend to agree, forums are skewed but a number of posters must be representational. And 'least popular' is relative, not meant as 'in general'.

Problem with forums is that those that strongly believe something (e.g. 650b bad, 26" good) shout down those who think differently. You don't see many defending 650b now, I guess they just went out and bought what they wanted instead of being shouted at and poked fun at on here.

I don't have a 650b btw and after testing a couple have no intention of getting one any time soon.

Who's shouting?

I'm happy to participate in a rational debate about the wheelsize issue.
Be nice if those in the bike industry or media declare their interest, just so we all know where we stand.

The only abuse I've seen regarding this issue was a year or so ago when an industry type speculated that the reason I was so anti was that someone else was shagging my wife. 😀

No comments are directed at specific individuals and can be related to any number of threads. Point being every forum has strong personalities with strong views. Many people just read threads without comment or back off when they get shouted down. That does not make forums such as this representative of UK MTBers on every issue IMO, 650b being a prime example.

get a room you two

What size?

Twin or double?

The three main wheel sizes will continue.
650b has become the default size for new bikes and 29ers are firmly established but trials, dirt jump etc will likely stick with 26 for a while meaning they'll be stuff available but on different websites to the one you've used in the past.
Likewise suppliers like Superstar will I'm sure continue to stock a limited range of 26 inch stuff, they'd be daft not to given the number of 26 inch bikes out there.

My own experience. Built a 650b HT in the summer, rode it back to back with the 26 inch one I already had....sold the 650b one, it just wasn't as much fun to ride, far more of a steamroller and I like faster handling more playful HTs.

I have however built up a 650b FS, the wheel size seems perfect fit that kind of bike, long travel Enduro style bikes for ploughing through things and carrying as much speed as possible.

Defending 650b? Who needs to they are just getting on and riding them. I was 6 months early buying my 26" bike - it was a bargain but if I'd waited a little longer I would have gone 650. Why it's replaced 26" at that end completely. I can still buy stuff for 26 and I can get 650 wheels in my frame.

I spend a bit of time in my mates shop (not in the UK which is obviously special) and apart from the odd joke about the legacy/old tech nobody really comments on it. He doesn't need to explain that this 650 thing is x,y or z to people. They come in ride round on some bikes come back and maybe demo them. If they like them they buy them. It's not dented sales it's not changed what people are doing.

All the UK doesn't fall for the marketing BS is frankly BS anyway. Throw in the top comments of "I've ridden a 650b bike and I didn't like it" or "I tried that there 29r lark it's rubbish" shows a massively closed mind. When it comes to getting a new bike I will ride what is around see what I like and pick the bike I want, the size of the wheels will be irrelevant, the quality of the ride will be important.

chestrockwell - Member

Problem with forums is that those that strongly believe something (e.g. 650b bad, 26" good)

TBH you see very few people who believe 650b is bad, any more than think 26 is bad. The actual wheel size isn't what pisses people off- if 650b had been the established standard needlessly replaced with 26, it'd be exactly the same issue

It's not needless though, is it? It does feel different to 26" and 29", it's up to the buyer is that's a good or bad thing. From my brief go on 650b the impression I got was that it was 29" lite, for people scared off by 29ers with all the benefits/disadvantages associated.

The biggest reason for it though IMO is that it gives those that want to the perfect excuse to get a new bike. The people that want the next new thing, the flashest part or the next pointless standard far out weigh the groaners from what I can see and they certainly spend more cash.

Our sport, like most other things is about want, not need to most people. The market will exploit this.

Likewise suppliers like Superstar will I'm sure continue to stock a limited range of 26 inch stuff, they'd be daft not to given the number of 26 inch bikes out there.

I'm going to have to buy 26" kit from Superstar in the future? That's the best argument I've yet heard for chucking my 26" bikes in the canal. 🙁

I'm going to have to buy 26" kit from Superstar in the future? That's the best argument I've yet heard for chucking my 26" bikes in the canal.

Oh the irony of brand love ins

Can I just say this is the second time I've appeared on a wheel size thread?

Northwind - Member
TBH you see very few people who believe 650b is bad, any more than think 26 is bad. The actual wheel size isn't what pisses people off- if 650b had been the established standard needlessly replaced with 26, it'd be exactly the same issue

thats it for me..

wheel war five......
what if the OEM manufacturers decide to stop producing and developing parts for 29", because 30.5" wheels are the future and much better..
and tell you 30.5" brings the trail alive...

http://spokemagazine.com/2012/11/30/wheel-war-four/

chestrockwell - Member

it's up to the buyer is that's a good or bad thing.

Or it would be, if the buyer was offered a choice.

Or it would be, if the buyer was offered a choice.

They don't need the choice though as it seems most are happy to buy in to 'the next big thing', just as they always are.

A little bit of Rocket news today. A few weeks ago we removed the Rocket from our product pages, and following feedback from people at London Show it was clear that this has caused confusion and plenty of people to think we're not doing the Rocket anymore. This is definitely not the case!
The Rocket will be back, and it is going into production back in Taiwan with our current framebuilder. The new frame will have 27.5" wheels, and we will no longer be doing the 26" bike. It will have all the features of the original, and similar spec - 150mm travel, 140-160 forks, 853 front end, all that jazz, and combined with some developments we have made over the last couple of years and evolved geometry to make the most of the bigger wheels and latest kit. There will be Fox Evo and Cane Creek DB Air shock options.

This was the main reason we took the original product page down, as it no longer represented what we were working on. It was clearly the wrong decision to make, for all the people who are following the project and are still interested in the Rocket.

The aim is to have them in late summer, but we're not making any firm declarations or taking any orders until we have frames in boxes on a boat. We've learnt our lesson there!

The Rocket29 bike which the team raced in prototype form in the 2014 season is still being developed, but we have no firm date for getting this into production. We love the bike, but it's not quite right yet. When it is, we'll let you know!
The reason we have gone back to Taiwan is that after so long out of production we simply need product available and they can guarantee that. It was also clear from the emails received back in December that for every one person who was psyched about the UK Made project, another just wanted a Rocket wherever it was made. We have learnt a lot working with UK suppliers, but for the moment it's on the backburner.

One of the nicest things about the London Show was how many people came by to ask about the Rocket and were clearly excited by the bike and wanted to know more, as well as existing owners saying how much they loved theirs. It was fantastic to hear that, and gives renewed energy to us to get this project completed and get frames to people who want them. A lot of the decisions regarding what to say when about this project have been clouded by the emotions brought on from our difficult year last year, so I'll be the first to admit that we made the wrong call pulling the product page down. It's now back, explaining all about the bike, and the current status of the project, plus there's some archive videos and tech write ups from earlier in the project, and of course, Rocketman.

Fingers crossed- hope it comes out soon for them 🙂

I wonder what's happening with BML? I notice their website has been updated, and they're now selling precision frame building jigs.

So 26 is dead

Nah. It's just on long-term life support.

[Monty Python] No, it's just resting [/Monty Python]

I like this bit:

We have learnt a lot working with UK suppliers,

Yeah, like don't 🙂

I reckon the day Cotic stop selling 26 inch wheels you can take the mick out of "26 ain't dead". They never said they wouldn't do other wheel sizes did they?

Disappointing the UK manufacturing idea seems to be coming to nothing

They tried, it didn't work...shame but got to move on

Its a thumbs up from me though as we may end up with some frames in the autumn. Be interested in seeing the geometry for the 27.5 Rocket to see if its something I'd be interested in holding out for. Bit more competition around now in this category, Aeris being another on my maybe list

Disappointing the UK manufacturing idea seems to be coming to nothing

I don't think it is but its bizzarre no one has mentioned why it all came screeching to a halt

If you watch the BML insta account there's all manner of stuff getting posted and going on there from Roadbikes to Full Suss Gearboxes , no complete anything but proper not reallyordinary stuff.

I'm waiting to see a finished item at Bespoked but if I could afford a wheel truing stand like that now, I would abandon the dream of building my own bikes and just build wheels

After waiting so long will the Rocket be competitive by the time it arrives?

Define cometitive?

Is it likely to fit all modern standards e.g. Tapered forks, post mount brakes?
yes
Is it likely to be fully up to date geometry wise?
Yes
Is it likely to ride well?
If it is anything like the 26" bike, yes
Will it look great?
Yes ( to my mind it is fair on the eye)
Will you still get the great customer service from Cotic?
I'd be astonished if you don't

So the only question is price.....

Assuming the geometry is 'up to date' I'm really thinking price/weight. I'm a huge Orange fan and don't tend to chase new things just because it's the latest fashion but even I have to admit that the current crop of new bikes are starting to make it hard for me justify another Orange atm. I wonder if the Rocket will suffer in the same way?

I'm not a massive fan of direct sales but Canyon etc are so aggressive with their spec for the price that it's becoming harder for the smaller players.

I reckon the weight thing will still be the same- it'll weigh about the same as comparable alu full sussers, but loads of people will still say it's heavy and flexy because it's steel.

Assuming the geometry is 'up to date' I'm really thinking price/weight. I'm a huge Orange fan and don't tend to chase new things just because it's the latest fashion but even I have to admit that the current crop of new bikes are starting to make it hard for me justify another Orange atm. I wonder if the Rocket will suffer in the same way?

I'm not a massive fan of direct sales but Canyon etc are so aggressive with their spec for the price that it's becoming harder for the smaller players.

True, but that's two seperate issues. Even Giant/Spesh/Trek don't compete with Canyon on price/spec.

As for compettative, in the right hands any bike will be fast. Look at the 224 with Peaty Vs the V10, or any other rider switching brands, it's pretty rare for someone to suddenly gor from also-ran to podium, more often they move backwards quite significantly never to be seen again! And while the Orange is often criticised for only having incramental changes in the last 10 years, so has the V10, the MK2 (with the hydroformed front end and swoopy rear triangle) still looks identical to the latest carbon bike (bar geometry and wheel size and tweaks of the suspension, a bit like the development of errrrrrrrr, the 224 or 5?)!

I think Orange and Cotic's niche within FS bikes is durability. Whilst you can break a 5 I'd have a lot more faith in that almost box section downtube after a big crash than I would in something carbon fiber. Ditto the Rocket with it's steel downtube, they're both bikes for riding in the Peaks/lakes every week without worrying about durability for people that still have doubts about the durability of lighter materials.

I reckon the day Cotic stop selling 26 inch wheels you can take the mick out of "26 ain't dead". They never said they wouldn't do other wheel sizes did they?

Correct me if I'm wrong but is the BFe now the only 26" bike Cotic make? Because they were banding a 27.5" version around on FB the other day which suggests that if 26" ain't dead, its going to be (for Cotic) very shortly.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is the BFe now the only 26" bike Cotic make?

Soul is still 26" and tiny bit bigger size.

My large 26" Rocket with 160mm Pikes, a Reverb, pedals, Hope/Arch EX wheels with 2.4 tyres, carbon bars and XT brakes and XT 2x10 weighs about 32lbs on my cheap scales. At the moment I am running Mavic Crossmaxes and lighter winter tyres and using it as an XC bike on the Malverns and it weighs just over 30lbs. My 2008 Orange 5 that I replaced with the Rocket was a very similar weight with the same wheels.

Don't get me wrong, I won't be changing my 5 29 anytime soon and love it but it's just there's nothing else in the range that has me looking to 'upgrade'. I'm waiting for them to do something but I'm not sure what.

Same with the Rocket. It can evolve like the 5 but it will probably be fundamentally the same bike you lot have been waiting ages for. With the way things move forward, at least on the surface, will that be enough?

As for Spesh/Giant/Trek etc, they can react if necessary and easily drop prices or improve spec to suit demand. They make most of the components themselves so don't have to worry about buying stuff in. Smaller players can't do that in the same way.

Same with the Rocket. It can evolve like the 5 but it will probably be fundamentally the same bike you lot have been waiting ages for. With the way things move forward, at least on the surface, will that be enough?

What's changed though?

Even at the sharp end of DH the Demo 8 still retains broadly the same silouette 11 years on, the V10 likewise, Trek have gone from the Diesel (which won almost nothing), to the session10 (which won almost nothing) to the session 8 (which did work). Ok they've gone carbon, and the latest VPP is probably beter behaved than when SC bought the patent off Outland in the mid 90's, all the big boys have done for the last 10-15 years is refine their designs and figure out what works better (and bolt better shocks on).

If something works, it'll still be good in 11 years time, let alone after a years delay.

The only people who will tell you otherwise work in marketing.

If something works, it'll still be good in 11 years time, let alone after a years delay.

Whilst I agree with most of what you said TINAS, the above isn't quite right is it.

11 years ago, there were bikes which 'worked' Are they still good now? I personally would hate to be riding the bikes I was riding 11 years ago - big wide bars, ace suspension, slack head angles, tubeless, dropper posts etc - all things I couldn't live without now.

It'll be as good as it was. But other things might be better. And good's relative, my rigid mtb was good when I bought it but these days it's a bad hybrid.