Cotic full suss musings

I saw one at a DH race at Stile Cop at the back of last year and it looks absolutely stunning 🙂

No idea how it rides... but it looks awesome !

Sounds like a Jeht would be more up your street but it'll still be longer and slacker than your Rocket. Though a FlareMAX is absolutely fine for any non-uplifted UK riding, though I'm sure it'd  it'll still be fine, if a little slower at places like Dyfi!, Mine also went to the Pyrenees and Alps, was great.

However, have you actually ridden a sorted LLS bike? You might actually really like it, to me, they just do everything well. And another steel full sus to look out for, Starling Murmur, I have to mention them as that's what I have now 🙂

I've got one of the last of the Gen2 27.5" Rockets - it's better than I am. I imagine the 29er is much the same but rolls fasterer.

Steel FS bikes are thin on the ground. Pipedream Full Moxie, BTR Pinner, Production Privee Shan No5. I think you'd be lucky to find a second-hand one of any of those to be honest.

So, would a modern 29 Rocket climb as well and do long rides as well my 26 one or have they just made them far too slack now? Or the geometry of a Flare would probably suit me better but it is much shorter travel and I do need a proper skill compensator. How good would a Flare be at the Golfie or maybe even the Mega where a Rocket is perfect?

I ride regularly at the Golfie and the other Tweed Valley locations, Gen2 Flaremax with 132mm on the rear and a -2 headset and Lyrik up front.  Super stable and capable.  Also fine for longer rides, I often have done 40 milers with 5-6,000ft.

But, you could just look at the RocketMax as it weighs barely more and will be even more capable.

So, would a modern 29 Rocket climb as well and do long rides as well my 26 one or have they just made them far too slack now?

There was a recent thread here where @JonEdwards was musing on the challenges of riding a 29" Rocket on longer, all-day stuff, not so much the geometry, I think, but the odd, power-sapping nature of longer travel bikes. He'd found, I think, a 26" Rocket a more convincing all-rounder:

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/powering-a-longer-travel-29er/

I ride a FlareMAX and it's ace. Deceptively capable on most technical stuff, still very connected and happy with long rides too. I suspect the Jeht would be similar, but maybe slightly less involving. The obvious answer, if you can, is to rock up to one of the Cotic demo days and see what you think.

The obvious answer, if you can, is to rock up to one of the Cotic demo days and see what you think.

Just beat me to it there.

Ideally get Sam to join you and some pals on trails you know well, with a bit of climbing and some steep descents, and ride all three of their FS 29ers.

In terms of alternative steel FSers, Starling and Pipedream are the obvious pair. The new Murmur makes some smart changes over the previous version (which I have).

I went  through exactly this in late '19 early '20. I had a 26" Rocket I'd owned since 2013; demoed 650b Rocket, 29 Flaremax, 29 Rocketmax. (all Longshot) around the Eyam test route. The Jeht wasn't available then

The 650 Rocket felt quite like the 26", just more so. Flaremax was great up to a point, then got quite out of its depth, quite quickly. Possibly solvable with some more suspension tweaking to make it more progressive, but ultimately had the same fork travel as my mkV Soul, so not such a step forward. Rocket Max - imperious. Just smashed the arse out of the rougher sections and I ended up in the fence across the road at the bottom of the trail as I was carrying that much more speed I missed the braking point. Genuinely ridonkulously fast.

So I ended up with the last medium mk2 Rocketmax frame. 3 years on  - its been ridden some. LLS/longshot (mostly) just works. Its the best "steep climbing" bike I've owned. Point it at a nasty pile of rocks, or a hilariously steep fireroad and it'll just winch up it. You won't win races, but if you keep the pedals turning, it'll just keep going. Handling is surprisingly nimble - I think it's slack enough that the flop actually starts to make the steering speed up again as and when you crank some lock on. Obviously through the rough and steep its amazing, but what I was really surprised by this summer was how well it coped with slow speed, trialsy alpine tech-gnar. For those of you who know the Les Arcs area, I managed a clean run down La Varda, which I was well chuffed with.

Downsides. Its a lump. There's very little difference in frame weight across the range, and whether you build a FlareMax, Jeht or RocketMax, they'll have similar build kits. However, especially the Rocketmax, you can hit stuff so damn hard that wheels and tyres need to be at the robust end of the spectrum, and that can kill the all-day pedalability of the bike. Its brilliant for 3-4 hrs, but l need to be in proper good shape to hack it for longer rides. (mines between 32 and 33 lb depending on tyre choice, so not silly heavy - but neither am I)

While it goes up and down great, its not so good at along. I have a few rolling, technical, cliff edge traverses local to me, and the combo of the weight, the squish and the relatively steep seat angle make it a bit like hard work compared to my Soul.

Now - I'd probably look at a Jeht, as the Rocketmax has got a bit bigger again. A Jeht certainly won't be phased by anything the UK can throw at it. Just depends how ultimately fast you want to go downhill!

I’ve got a newish Jeht. I was a little concerned about the slackness before I bought it. Absolutely fine in practice. I’d probably prefer marginally shorter chain stays if I’m being picky. It’s good on the flat and incredible downhill (to the point I can’t imagine needing a longer travel bike). There’s no denying it’s a bit of a lump on the ups. Looks great, quality seems brilliant and cotic were good to deal with 🙂

I like my rocketmax. It's rock solid, incredibly competent, in terms of capability with the right tyres it's better than my old orange 224 dh bike. It pedals fine- not brilliantly, but fine- and can do technical climbs decently, you just really have to boss it or it goes head-wobbly. Basically it can do everything I want it to do, and it can do most of it really well.

I don't love it though. Loved my Hemlock, love my Remedy 29,loved my Soul. Of course it's better than my Hemlock was, miles better, and it's probably better than the Remedy. But whatever tenuous thing it is that makes you bond with a bike doesn't seem to be there and I don't know why. There's definitely something in the feel, it's a little bit lifeless feeling compared to some others. (which is mostly a good thing, it's a sign suspension and geo is working, but it's still less engaging)

But it is definitely a brilliant bike.

Switch9er (when Dan grabs the reigns back)?

I'm going to seriously look at the ti/carbon version when I have spare cash sometime in the future

I've got a FlareMax which I like. But I haven't decided if I love it yet.

It's amazingly capable but I can't help wondering if it's too long or if a mullet or size down might have been better. It feels quite a heft round corners.

This might be because of I'm not riding trails then I'm at the skate park or dirt jumps on a jump bike. So quite a difference in bikes.

It might also be because the FlareMax seems to handle everything I throw at it. Perhaps I don't have the terrain round here to do it's downhill capabilities justice.

I would also prefer shorter chainstays.

I weighed in on the other thread too. RocketMAX is an amazingly capable bike. When it gets steep and lumpy I've never ridden anything anywhere near as good (closest was my old 26er Alpine 160).

As much as I love it when riding it as intended, it's not a great all-rounder though. It's not the weight, just something in the feel that makes it awkward to accelerate at times. Once up to speed it's a monster though.

My left-field suggestion would be a 27.5 Rocket, but run as a 26+ bike (if you can get tyres I guess). That's how I had mine and as a burly 'trail' bike it was brilliant. Almost as capable as the MAX but a better all-day ride, and just as much at home round the local woodsy singletrack as on a big Lakes descent.

Failing that (and I admit it's a niche option), sounds like you want a Jeht.

I have both a FlareMax and a RocketMax. FlareMax is a MK1 so not directly comparable to today's version but my opinion would be If you want an allrounder get the FlareMax. I've ridden mine on all day marathons and and the Alps. It'll do everything very well. The RocketMax I bought specifically for enduros and steep rocky tech stuff, and it's superb at that, but not quite as much fun as the FlareMax on tamer stuff. The RocketMax will climb up anything, but the extra weight and heft will suck the energy out of you. In short if you ride very steep technical trails most of the time on shorter rides of 2-3 hours get a rocketmax. If you ride mostly non-steep  stuff and like all day rides get a FlareMax with a 130-140mm fork. If you ride both technical and non-technical trails equally get a Jeht 🙂

I've got a new RocketMax and I'd echo most of the above. For context, it replaced an Orange Stage 5(2017). I carried over most of the build, so it's got a 160mm fork with 51mm offset, so arguably a bit more manoeuvrable than it would be with a new Zeb or 38.

I do love it. I replaced the Stage 5 because I felt I was taking it out of its (or my) depth on rougher trails and steeper sections. Combined with good enduro tyres, the RocketMax just makes everything controlled. I trust it and It makes me want to go for fun lines rather than just survive.

However, it isn't as fun as the Orange on the fast pedally or pumpy bits, it doesn't feel urgent. That's normal because I've set it up to be plush and it has grippy tyres. It's a compromise I'm happy to make, but if I had the option for a snappy trail bike as well then I would have both. I might experiment with a trail rear tyre and add 5psi for summer trail riding.

I've got a jeht, it climbs fine, you won't have a problem. Just sit and spin. With modern gearing, does anything really climb badly? It's definitely confidence boosting, I can tackle steeper stuff than I ever would have, but that's not too say I'm suddenly a great rider!

I'm yet to properly nail the suspension setup though, I've not got the rear feeling as supple as I'd like, but I do get the occasional bottom out. I've got every intention of renting a shokwiz.

It is heavy, humping it onto the roof of the car is literally a pain. But I don't think it really matters once riding.

It looks ace.

I've got a Jeht too. It's faster than my old Camber 29 (bearing in mind the rider is a 58 year old programmer with no skill). It climbs fine in my area of the north Chilterns

I had the original flaremax (and an original Solaris and Rocket 26). Mate has a rocketmax 29 and he's a big fan. His gets ridden all round here (FoD/Staunton/etc) with some big climbing/miles days. We don't do much along tho, it's quite winch and plummety on the trails we ride. Also been to lots of 'big' alpine places (where I've had my ripmo and after than my giga) and obviously it's great there.

I did try a 27.5 RM after selling my 26. I didn't really get on with it. Can't remember why tho! My Giga (which is double coil sprung and weights the north side of 37lbs) is a surprisingly fun trail bike. It's actually okay on any flat bits, climbs really well (if not quickly) and doesn't feel like too much bike on easier trails. Which is odd considering it's a monster truck.

So as with other posters, it's defo worth getting a ride. We're all very different and one riders experience can be opposite to the others on the same bike.

What are the pros and cons of the Cotic vs the Murmur? These are the two bikes I can’t seem to decide between (looking at a Jeht) and being in the USA in a small city, test riding isn’t possible. 

Well I have owned a Murmur v2 and ridden a few Cotic FS bikes, if that helps?

Starling
Looks amazing
Beautifully built and a delight to work on
Good geometry
Pedals OK
Keys into the ground so well when leaned over
Bit flexy compared to some though
I never totally nailed the rear suspension set-up
New frames more adaptable I think

Cotics
Still got that soft steel feel, but a bit less so
I probably preferred the frame ride feel overall though
Also good geometry
Pedals well
Seatpost insertion depth ruled them out for me
And friends had some nagging issues with them

Might be a case of following your heart. Is there one that gives you a more special feeling?

I own a Cotic Rocketmax gen 4, but have ridden the rest of their range. Haven't ridden the Starling. In the blister review they compared the rocketmax to the murmur so that might be useful, as the Jeht is basically a less aggressive geo, less travel version of the same bike, I believe. The biggest difference between the two is the suspension layout, the Cotic FS bikes all use a linkage driven single pivot that makes them quite progressive, meaning they suit coils quite well; whereas the Starling uses a simple single pivot meaning it's very linear. I'm not enough of a nerd to say much more on it.

You could get in touch with both companies and see what they have to say? Cotic have a great staff team (the company is 7 people in a warehouse outside of Sheffield) and I'm sure Starling do too. My rocketmax rides great and with the C5 size and not having that long legs for my height I have a 200mm travel post slammed which is perfect height for me, but I understand that others have had issues with post insertion.

https://blisterreview.com/gear-reviews/cotic-rocketmax-gen4

I can't help but think that a lot/most/all of this is about wheels and tyres rather than geometry or amount of suspension travel.

A 26in wheel shod in light tyres will ride 'faster' uphill/along than 29in shod in chunky rubbers.

Getting 'fast' 29er wheels/tyres is not easy. Or cheap.

Rotating mass is one reason why I like mullets, FWIW.

Sorry, OP here, forgot to reply.

I had a very brief go on someone's 29 Flare and really liked it so took the plunge and got a 29 Rocket and sold the 26 Rocket.

It rides really well on the steep stuff. Fairly sturdy build -Manitou Mezzer Pro, Hope Tech 4, Hope hubs, Stans Flow rims, Minions, 1x11 XTR, Thomson dropper, 800mm Rental bars. I've ridden the Golfie and Innera a lot on it, and also Fort William including the DH world cup course and it was great.

However, it is quite heavy. It doesn't climb well, despite the fancy Fox X2 shock, the 26 Rocket definitely imbed a lot better and was a much better all day bike. Also, I went for a large, which is great when I'm on it but really lacks stand over (I'm 5'11").

I have since acquired, also second hand, a medium (all my other bikes are medium, the only large one is the Rocket) Orange Alpine 5 29, slightly lighter build (Fox 36 Factory, Hope hubs on lighter rims, Ardents, but otherwise similar) Way better up hill and a much nicer all day bike. And surprisingly good on the downs too. I now don't use the Rocket much, that's for trips away to FW etc where I need the extra travel, the Orange gets used a lot, really impressed with it, really nice to ride and does everything well. Not the steel I thought I wanted but I love it. Only downside is lack of a bottle mount.

I've just totaled my front wheel (and wrist) so I'm in the market for new wheels. Do you have any specific recommendations for light-ish but durable wheels that won't bankrupt me? At the moment im in decision paralysis between getting some Chinese carbon rims in or just sticking with dt swiss 481/511.

Just a front wheel? Merlin have a Reserve carbon one for a good price.

Pick up a 661 wrist wrap pro while you're shopping, ready for getting back on the bike.

Cheers for the recommendations, especially the wrist brace. You know you've ballsed it up when all the professionals wince when they see your scans...

The wheel might be a bit lightweight for my purposes though, looking for something in the heavier trail/enduro space to cope with my tactless riding. Shame though, it's a cracking deal.

Posted by: jme369

↑

Do you have any specific recommendations for light-ish but durable wheels that won't bankrupt me?

Hunt half a half arsed sale on at the moment. 

I have the carbon Proven Trails from a previous sale and happy with them so far

Hope Fortus 30 ?

https://www.merlincycles.com/hope-fortus-30w-pro-5-centrelock-boost-front-wheel-29-291144.html

Cheers for all the recs, got an ex demo roval carbon wheel laced to DT Swiss 350 for £250 quid, feel like I got a good deal there.

Posted by: andrewh

↑

However, it is quite heavy. It doesn't climb well

I think my RocketMax climbs really well. I've never had an XC FS or anything like that to compare it to, but against my previous trail/AM full sussers I think its a pretty good climber.

Similar at to someone else who posted their experience, I’ve owned a Jeht and now own a Starling Murmur. Both are great bikes from UK based companies that really care about the customer, so you can’t go wrong with either. With the Murmur you have the option of upping the rear travel as it has adjustable shock settings (but you will need a longer stroke shock). As a single pivot (that pedals very well) long term maintenance on the Murmur is as easy as it gets for a full sus, and the frame plays very well with coil shocks if that’s your preference (Jeht is air only I believe). But overall, it’ll be the choice of tyres that most determine the character and capability of the bike, rather than how much travel you chose. 

Both companies will offer test rides so try and make the most of that if you can

I think the Jeht is air only, but I've seen other cotics with coil so may be worth checking. You can change the shock to something shorter travel if the eye to eye is correct to basically turn it into a slightly burly flaremax if you want too (check specifics with Cotic). 

Tyres definitely make it - I’ve have lightweight trail tyres followed by Magic Marys. Made a huge difference depending on how you want it, it’s certainly adaptable.

A coil suits a Jeht very well, especially if you’re a heavy & aggresive rider.

I really struggled to get a decent setup on my mk1. I tarted with a CCDB inline air, which blew through its travel; I spoke to Cy about it & he was fine with me fitting a coil (as long as I followed his coil weight recommendations) so tried an inline coil - wow what an improvement!! Support all the way through the travel,  it I still wasn’t fully satisfied; it had a weird “pause” sensation when it went from compression to rebound, which ultimately made the bike feel harsher than it should’ve been.

I spoke to TF about this and they said it’s a known trait on CCDB shocks & something to do with the valves and the kinematics of some frames. I honestly can’t remember the exact reasons but it made sense at the time.

Anyway, I pushed the boat out & fitted an Öhlins TTX22m coil shock & that was another big improvement. I then sold it… I should’ve bought a medium Rocket - the large Jeht was probably the comfiest bike I’ve ever ridden over a distance but in all honesty I wanted something I could absolutely rag and throw around, & I found the Jeht too stretched out. Anyway Jeht & coil are fine but speak to Cy first.