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<span style="color: #555555; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; font-style: italic; text-align: left; background-color: #eeeeee;">Given all the data about how much safer cyclists are when they wear a helmet</span>
Chinny reckon...
I'd love to see all this data. Peer reviewed and published of course.
(The plural of anecdote is not data, however many frothing loons seem to think it is.)
even though helmets reduce injuries and you're an idiot for not wearing one the choice should be yours to do so.
I’ve never heard of anyone getting fined.
I certainly have - NSW Police used to set up checkpoints on key commuting routes and fine people en masse. I think I must have either been wearing a helmet or spotted them early enough to avoid them, as I didn't get pinged. I think the fines were fairly chunky, maybe 10 penalty units or something, so $220? It wasn't nominal iirc
Well in QLD I see people every day not wearing them - school kids and adults. Just like I see lots of cars without front number plates.
even though helmets reduce injuries and you’re an idiot for not wearing one the choice should be yours to do so.
Just as you should wear a helmet when driving, when going up a ladder, when going down stairs etc, and you're an idiot for not wearing one but the choice should be yours.
Helmet compulsion is a rubbish idea.
Maybe its a set up to start fining cyclists not wearing them.
Pro helmet, anti compulsion.
The helmet is a help if I fall off due to a pot hole or fluffing a corner or grabbing too much front brake or a front tyre blowout or whatever.
It is next to no use against a motor vehicle as demonstrated by a motor manufacturer's research no in 2019....
Given that my aged out/old helmets get flattened before going in a bin and it doesn't take much more than a hefty heel stamp in the middle I'm curious as to what protection it will offer if some inattentive halfwit in a 1 tonne metal box hits me at considerably more than cycling pace?
So here's a super idea... fund roads policing properly, stop letting people accrue points vastly in excess of the totting up limit due to "exceptional hardship" and explain to them that if not driving will ruin them they might get a second chance at 12 points ONCE but really if you are that habitually law breaking in a car even knowing you've exceeded the totting up limit and your financial and family life is massively dependent on it then you are fundamentally not fit to hold a driving licence either through incompetence or lawlessness and both are equally bad in their own way.
Every time one of these people gets let off a lengthy ban (time and again) it sends a message that they will get away with it next time too and the cycle must perpetuate.
There’s a worrying tendency amongst some on here to buy into the (right wing) paradigm of blaming people for not wearing helmets.
Gently riding a bicycle is not that dangerous. The biggest risk is being hit by a car, at which point wearing a helmet is likely to make **** all difference.
Quite worrying to see this on a forum that’s ostensibly for cyclists.
<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; background-color: #eeeeee;">Just as you should wear a helmet when driving, when going up a ladder, when going down stairs etc, and you’re an idiot for not wearing one but the choice should be yours.</span>
oh do shut up. You put a seatbelt on in a car and you make sure a ladder is safe to use before going up.
Never used to wear a lid other than the hair net things when road racing. As helmets got better, I just got used to them. I wear them when out training, commuting or any off road. I don't wear one when bimbling with family.
We has some fat lass comment to us three (me, wife and adult daughter). Oh look they aren't wearing helmets. I am not wearing a lid when bimbling about.
I don't agree with compulsion, although I'll wear one when I'm shifting. A mate of mine never wears a helmet, even off road (and hes has a fractured skull in an off and head lacerations in two others).
There is a limit on the protection a lid offers (unless a DH lid), but if it lessens a concussion or gravel rash on your forehead (skin isn't thick up there), all for it.
If seatbelts prevented all head injuries car occupants wouldn’t be significant recipients of those injuries. The case for helmet compulsion in cars is particularly clear with motor vehicle use not offset by any health benefits to compensate.
You put a seatbelt on in a car and you make sure a ladder is safe to use before going up.
Yet you can still sustain a head injury in a car accident when wearing a seatbelt and still fall off a ladder that you have checked is safe or fall down stairs. The fact you seem to think cycling is more dangerous is up to you but don't state that is more dangerous for all others and they are idiots for not wearing a helmet.
Guessing you are not very good at riding a bike, which is fine, a lot of people are not that good so wear that helmet of yours if it makes you feel better.
A quick Google of the BMJ seems to suggest old people should wear helmets as they fall over a lot and bang their swedes. And it gets worse the more you age, and there's a lot of old people out there. Some who may even compound the issue by riding bicycles.
My father fell last Christmas day, had he been wearing a helmet he would have dodged a head injury but of course I fully respect his decision and right to expose himself to risk. He wasn't riding a bike at all, and had just finished 3 courses.
Helmets are sweaty, look stupid and help 'other' ordinary cyclists who are just trying to get somewhere.
Rarely wear one when using a bike for transport. Compulsion can do one and I'll pay the fine.
(obviously when cycling for sport whether on the road or mtb, I'll always wear one unless is a complete bimble)
I wear one as I don't do slow, don't have an e-bike, nor am I that quick off road down hill, but I push it, I always have. Shit happens sometimes. Very useful to let the paramedics pick me up off the road on a spinal board letting them see a helmet without a mark. I'd broken my spine and I suspected it. Pain was incredible, but I was able to say lower back, not head or neck, check helmet.
I wouldn’t let compulsory helmet wearing stop me from cycling, and doing so for that reason is just curmudgeon level narcissistic click bait whinging IMO regardless of political party enforcing it.
Neither would most of us - the point is that its another barrier that may stop other people starting cycling.
There’s a worrying tendency amongst some on here to buy into the (right wing) paradigm of blaming people for not wearing helmets.
Can you point out some examples by quoting who has said that.
Gently riding a bicycle is not that dangerous. The biggest risk is being hit by a car, at which point wearing a helmet is likely to make **** all difference.
I've written off three helmets while "riding gently". I agree they shouldn't be compulsory, and are not going to save you if you get walloped by a car, but they are quite handy things in case of ice, mud, idiot pedestrians....
Only in its first reading, but as its a good idea and likely to save lives and serious injury, it could well go through.
It isn’t a good idea.
Go on then Ranos.
I dont wear one, because my pottering along isnt a dangerous occupation, but if you are going to bounce your head off the ground, and in cycling that is a possibility, then the reduction a helmet will bring makes it a good idea.
I have also fallen off (OTB) and landed on my head(Vodka and cycling aren't a good mixer) but it was a whiplash injury that was the result, which took about 5 years to fully clear up.
That one really bloody hurt. It like walking into a concrete lintel 10x.
but if you are going to bounce your head off the ground, and in cycling that is a possibility, then the reduction a helmet will bring makes it a good idea.
The question is whether, overall, safety outcomes for cyclists would be significantly improved through helmet compulsion. As far as I'm aware, that hasn't been demonstrated in countries where compulsion has been introduced.
@MoreCashThanDash there’s a quote for you:
you’re an idiot for not wearing one
Damaging a helmet doesn’t mean that you needed to wear one. None of us can tell what the counterfactual would be, which is why we use data rather than anecdotes.
One of the weird counterintuitive things is helmet wearers appear more likely to crash!
Read the link I provided before - it gives good summaries of the evidence. Compulsory helmets would at best save a handful of lives and cost dozens via diseases of inactivity.
Edit: Its very interesting to look thru the data. Loads of counterintuitive effects. The quality of data varies from mediocre to downright rubbish so some of the most cited articles being particularly poor. There is little decent evidence of helmets reducing injuries overall when compulsion has been tried.
Meh, not going to happen and if it did I’d make a point of not wearing one for a bimble to the shops. Local plod can’t/won’t deal with the unlicensed electric mopeds or any number of petty crimes as it is.
The biggest risk is being hit by a car, at which point wearing a helmet is likely to make **** all difference.
I don't think this is true. However hard you hit your head it's worse without a helmet. Doesn't matter if you hit a car A pillar or tarmac. Yes it won't save you from being mown down at 60mph but not all accidents are that.
@garage-dweller that's not an accurate representation of how they work. Try this: put a helmet on and hit yourself on the head with a brick. Now take the helmet off and do it again. See the difference?
That inch or so of polystyrene deforms and takes away some of the energy that would go into your skull. Similar to how a car can look like it's weak and useless be ause it's completely crumpled in a crash, but it's the crumpling that has saved you.
I ride all the time, only place I'll ever wear a helmet is technical downhill sections. Never on a road.
They're just damn unpleasant things and I shouldn't have to wear one. So I won't, no matter what the law says.
One of the weird counterintuitive things is helmet wearers appear more likely to crash!
Is that adjusted for type of cyclist? The kind who ride fast for a long time are more likely to crash and they almost all where helmets.
Petition to add to the same bill a presumption of guilt on any driver who hits a cyclist and I might accept it.
I didn’t ride in on Friday due to the fog, not because I don’t like riding in fog (I do, really evocative atmosphere - literally) but because I know drivers don’t drive to the conditions - and that’s scary.
Is that adjusted for type of cyclist?
Impossible to pick that type of granular detail in the data from what I remember
but as its a good idea
Is it?
All it will do is reduce cycling use and lead to more people being fat and putting more strain on the NHS. A bit of polystyrene will do bugger all when an inattentive motorist splats you into the tarmac.
Got to wonder whether the body that governs this country doesn't have better things to do with its time. They haven't answered for the previous PPE scandal yet. Has anyone checked ACOBA to see what interests the minister proposing this has in related businesses?
Shit idea.
My hair is my concern.
If I've been hit by a car it's probably because the driver is a **** and not because I wasn't wearing a helmet.... Something something cause vs no f-off you drove into me.
As seen is Australia this reduces the participation in cycling.
In most large cities in China you can rent a bike at the side of the road by hour/day/monthly subscription. At first they were Boris Bikes style. Now we see slow, single seater emopeds everywhere.
The manually pedalled bikes all have baskets in the front for your shopping. The ebikes have a sort of basket, but there is a helmet locked in there that you remove when you unlock the bike, then you can put your shopping in there. The helmet is attached by a long security cord.
People don't wash ......
Sometimes the rain washes the helmet for you.......
Most of the time these bikes are wobbling down the roads with the helmet banging away locked in the basket because most people don't wear them. They're also single seaters but people put two, sometimes three people on them. Small kids too. Bigger emopeds, and 100-150cc motorbikes you can see four people on them, and no helmets.
Helmets are cheap here. You can get supposedly DOT rated full face modular helmets for less than a tenner, where the front flips up so you can breathe better whilst stopped at traffic lights (for those that bother to stop). Most people here can't even ride a bike safely, because study and exams are almost every hour of a kid's life.
Gore is banned from social media, but I still see videos of people showing off their accident injuries. Dented/fractured skulls, broken noses and jaws, damaged/missing limbs. Ironic that it's usually their fault for not wearing a helmet, learning to ride, or observing traffic rules. Usually, in this society, disabled family members are hidden away from the public. You rarely see them wheeled out of their homes. They're a hidden issue. Preventative actions (cause and effect principles) aren't a strong point in local academic/social education. Following rules given the political environment is odd
There are checkpoints many places at rush hour, stopping riders enmasse. They get a stern talking to. I think there is a 20rmb (£2.19) fine too.
So we come to industrialized Western nations and the problems with cyclists without lights, helmets, lack of observing traffic rules. You'd think they'd have more sense.
All it will do is reduce cycling use and lead to more people being fat and putting more strain on the NHS.
That is potentially as much bullshit as the people who say wearing helmets will save lives. Riding at 10mph to the shops, or a 2 mile commute is not going to stop you getting fat and putting more strain on NHS. The people who would no longer ride due to a helmet law may just walk instead which could be argued is harder work than cycling slowly for a short distance (I used to walk 3 miles to work and back every day and it was much harder than cycling 3 miles)
The people who are actually fitter/thinner/healthier are largely going to be those who actual cycle further and faster and from what I can see the majority of those already wear a helmet.
Some good data would be on how many people do not wear a helmet when cycling and what sort of cycling are they doing.
All it will do is reduce cycling use and lead to more people being fat and putting more strain on the NHS.
Actually this is true - read the data linked to above. The protective effects of helmets are so small across the population and the health benefits of cycling so large that it only takes a tiny reduction in cycling for the unwelcome effects of a reduction in cycling to outweigh any beneficial effects from helmet wearing
<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; background-color: #eeeeee;">Read the link I provided before</span>
Do you have any links to data not analysed by a famously anti helmet publication.
Riding at 10mph to the shops, or a 2 mile commute is not going to stop you getting fat and putting more strain on NHS.
Agreed that it doesn’t do a lot to stop people becoming overweight, but even relatively small amounts of exercise are beneficial to health, and are also likely to start a beneficent cycle.
A good summary of the actual evidence
There is no actual, holistic, reliable, peer-reviewed, independent evidence on either side
It's a matter of personal choice and must remain that way until the necessary, extremely complex and costly studies are completed. That won't happen anytime soon, if ever
@MoreCashThanDash there’s a quote for you:
you’re an idiot for not wearing one
I'm not quite seeing how that becomes your right wing paradigm
There’s a worrying tendency amongst some on here to buy into the (right wing) paradigm of blaming people for not wearing helmets.
I've spent a lot of time finding helmets I'm comfortable in. I think not wearing a helmet when there are so many types to use is stupid, based on my experience of falling off and banging my head.
I do not blame people who exercise their right to not wear one though. I am pro-helmet, anti-compulsion.
I'm not wanting or seeking to blame anyone with the opposing view. Not everything has to be a completely all or nothing, black and white excuse for an argument.
Do you have any links to data not analysed by a famously anti helmet publication.
Yes - that one Iinked to cycling UK not cyclehelmets.org
https://www.cyclinguk.org/briefing/cycle-helmets
There is no actual, holistic, reliable, peer-reviewed, independent evidence on either side
Yup - it points in various directions and no evidence for helmet compulsion reducing serious injuries is robust. The quality is generally pretty awful tho
One thing i learn from reading threads like this is that a lot of people should have paid more attention at school.
And scarily enough, some engineers/scientists/mathematicians should have paid more attention at University as well.
Agreed that it doesn’t do a lot to stop people becoming overweight, but even relatively small amounts of exercise are beneficial to health, and are also likely to start a beneficent cycle.
So if they walk instead of riding a bike that health benefit maybe even better. We don't know though do we as we don't have the level or quality of data required so we are all just guessing.
If you already use a bike for little trips it doesn't mean that a) you wouldn't just put on a helmet if it became law or b) ignore the law and just carry on cycling of c) get in your car (if you have one) and not just walk.
I’ve spent a lot of time finding helmets I’m comfortable in. I think not wearing a helmet when there are so many types to use is stupid, based on my experience of falling off and banging my head.
Why do you not ware a helmet walking or running? There is nothing special about riding a bike. I am many others here have no issue with people wearing a helmet and personally I ware a helmet for most of my riding. There is however a big difference between waring it where the user feels it is needed and having it being a requirement for riding at all when many forms of riding can be similar dangers to walking or running. There would still be a benefit to waring a helmet when walking or running but most people choose not to. It shouldn't be an issue if someone chooses not to for an aspect of cycling