The only issue with a light wet lube as a top up is that you really need to thoroughly clean your chain with degreaser or solvent again before you rewax. The wet lube will contaminate your wax and also prevent wax from sticking to the chain. The current drip on I have is similar to squirt and works well but I won’t sell it as it still needs a clean. I want a top up that you can just forget about and rewax with no cleaning. I’m working on it but I’m not convinced with what I have just yet. Basically if hot water doesn’t remove it fully then it’s too oily to be a true wax top up.
The only issue with a light wet lube as a top up is that you really need to thoroughly clean your chain with degreaser or solvent again before you rewax
Does the hot wax not wash the oil out?
I wonder if the old style crappy 'dry' lube, the stuff that's a really light solvent with wax dissolved in it would work?
This stuff
https://www.tredz.co.uk/.White-Lightning-Clean-Ride-Squeeze-Bottle_18044.htm
It will work as a stand alone product but drip on will never be as good as immersive wax.
Sign me up! I'm more than happy to drip a product onto a chain in the knowledge that while it's not absolutely the best thing, it'll be good enough for what I need it to do. Other thing: does when you lube make that much of a difference? I'm not one for doing it just before I go riding, I'll do it (often/mostly) days before hand. I wonder if that has an impact?
I'd like to give it a try
I'd like to put my business the way of someone on here
So for ****s sake will someone just tell me what Daz's product is called and where I can order some. Or is it some kind of inner STW cabal that I have to be invited to join and go through some initiation involving pouring molten wax over my genitals at midnight under a full moon while eating the still beating heart of a goat.
As a long time Putoline user, I'm also interested to see what you've come up with Daz. Maybe share your Instagram as a way to find you if you're not comfortable with a direct link? Though I don't see any issue with that.
Wax doesn’t clear out oil lube very well, I don’t know the full chemistry, it does remove most of it but then that lube combines with your wax and softens it, I hope to have a product on sale in a month or so that will work well. Downside of a wax compatible lube is that it will need to be applied and given time to dry, usually overnight. I’m trying go have an emulsion version that dries to be exactly like the hot melt but that’s more challenging than I first thought it would be
genubah mentioned it about 3/4 of the way down page one. Daz is seemingly shy of reposting a link so i won't either, but it's easy to find if you type in his three letter brandname and wax or chains or something.
Just don't put an extra 'i' in by mistake which takes you to a whole different site.
www.glfwax.com
Thanks. Looks better than Putoline in many ways, and a reasonable price. I'll probably give it a go at some point. Guess it's probably best to start with a new chain rather than one that's been used with Putoline?
Ohhhh, I'm tempted.
I swear Putoline used to be much harder than it's current boot-polish consistency, I've even bought a new tin to test that theory and it's the same.
I'm wax-curious.
Just ordered some of Daz's wax...
And an ultrasonic cleaner to go with it 😂
No pressure then!!! I know what a fussy lot you are, but joking aside I’m more than open to constructive criticism. I know enough to know I know very little in the grand scheme of things.
Drop me an email or WhatsApp if you have queries, even about waxing in general rather than my product. I feel I’ve turned into a waxing evangelist. The benny hinn of chain waxing 😉
Hoin the club daz! I have been evangelical about it because its so much better.
I wonder if the old style crappy ‘dry’ lube, the stuff that’s a really light solvent with wax dissolved in it would work?
The Zero Friction Cycling guy recommends Smoove as a top-up lube on an immersively waxed chain I think. The proviso is that it works best if you heat it before application. Also says, on their site I think, that it can give results not far off immersion waxing if you apply it to a properly degreased chain - as per immersive waxing - and then pre-heat chain and lube before application to optimise penetration. At which point you might as well just use an immersive wax I think.
That’s always the thing with drip lubes, some test data show them as good or almost as good as hot wax, but they never detail the full procedure you need to go through to get those results. The cleaning process is definitely going to take longer, it’s the ease of cleaning I like the most about hot melt waxing. It’s just so easy. No solvents or degreaser needed ever again.
I converted on my summer road bike (I still think putoline will be go to for the winter longevity)
4 rides in and it's been good so far, that's about 350km but a dusty ride last week (bit of surrey gravel thrown in) and I felt it was just starting to grind a bit yesterday. So today I whipped it off and gave it a couple of hours in the £8 slow cooker I picked up off ebay.
It's now cooled, I've rubbed it over a piece of plumbing waste pipe to loosen it up, and back on. My query for @daz, is that it was running perfectly yesterday in terms of shifting, just not running as smoothly as I feel it should. Now it's running perfectly smoothly and noise free, but the front derailleur won't pick it up from the inner and onto the big ring. Have you seen this in your testing and any thoughts? Does it need twisting after waxing to loosen it side to side? Is the lubricant stopping the shifting pins from getting enough purchase? I suspect after a bit of riding it'll start to work again but thoughts welcomed.
Yeah it’s normal for a chain to be a little stiff when it’s freshly waxed as the wax has worked it’s way into all the links of the chain. It is normally back to smooth running and shifting in about 5 mins, I’ve had a couple of chains take a bit longer and can’t really say why, after about 20 mins or so they are fine, I’d break them in cross chained slightly just to free them up a bit quicker.
Using MoltenSpeedWax I find similar to @theotherjohnv - a freshly waxed chain takes a few miles to "loosen up", but then runs great for some time. Eventually starts to go a bit noisier when I either stick it back in for a new wax or drip some normal lube on if I'm away etc.
@daz, am I right to assume that your drip-on lube would be compatible with other waxes (MSW, Putoline etc) if so I'll grab a bottle when you've got some back in stock.
I like the idea of using something more home-grown and local, so when I need to replace the wax I'll look to get some of yours Daz.
A Question: I'm sure I read on here about cleaning the accumulated debris out of wax - adding water to the molten wax (safer to add it before heating I guess?) so the wax floats to the top and can then be removed as a "puck" once cool. Then scrape the bottom bit off the puck which is where the dirt is.
I can't find that post now. Did I dream it? Does it work?
Thanks !
The drip on will be wax compatible when it’s available, having a few challenges on that front as the raw material for my previous drip on came from Russia or Ukraine, I’m trying to find an alternative, getting a fully wax compatible one is difficult but we will get there.
As for cleaning the residual dirt from wax, it’s not really a massive issue as it takes a long time before any significant build up occurs. You can remove it by turning on your slow cooker long enough for the block to free up, turn it over to release the puck and trim a bit off the bottom, the only issue with that is the fact you’ll also remove a lot of the additive as it tends to settle too. I wouldn’t add water to it personally but no real reason why that wouldn’t work. Water does sink to the base of the wax.
I had considered a cheaper base wax for off-road without the additive for this reason, but it’s not that much cheaper when I do the maths and the ws2 additive is even more effective in harsh conditions, it just isn’t worth the small saving.
Any wax questions please feel free to use the contact me thing on my website or instagram, that comes straight to my WhatsApp, I’m prone to missing posts on here.
Daz,
Im a utterly convinced Putoline user - It ideal for year round mountain biking in Scotland however the only weakness is that you need some corrosion protection after some time (a problem you seem to be working on)
However I have done more road riding this summer and waxed my chain with Putoline , maybe its the hot summer but its incredibly messy (don't care about this on MTB) and seems to be holding dirt and not acting ablative.
My question:
Is there an optimum temperature range for a wax like with motor oils? If I buy your wax will it behave properly from -10 to 30oC? or do I need two different waxes?
I’m sure I read on here about cleaning the accumulated debris out of wax
I wouldn't bother. I use a deep fat fryer and the basket keeps the chain above the dirt in the bottom.
However I have done more road riding this summer and waxed my chain with Putoline , maybe its the hot summer but its incredibly messy
Wax, ride, then give it a thorough rub down with a WD40 cloth, and pick off any residue from the jockey wheels if you are really fussy. Then it'll last all summer with no mess. See my pics earlier on the thread.
re cleaning the excess off the plates after waxing (or a wet ride to stop rusting) - after getting in v gooey putoline mess trying GT85 I found white spirit on a rag was a much cleaner solution. Interested in the top up dropper too
I’m not a fan of the softer waxes for the same reason, they create a mess and attract dirt. I set out to develop a wax that is as hard as possible on the chain, for durability and cleanliness, i never need to clean a chain unless it’s a really wet muddy day. If that’s the case I just rinse it with hot water and rewax, no other cleaning needed. Temperature isn’t a problem, I had riders using it at Volta a Portugal in a heatwave with no problems.
It’s been a very dry spell here and I’ve been trying out extended durability in dust, so far with 5 outings on our local Cavehill trails and no need to even think of a rewax, chain is squeak free and spotless. Cavehill is mostly a downhill kind of spot so limited mileage but still, it’s great having no dirt and black oily mess to deal with.
I am aware that self praise is no recommendation, I’m honestly glad of any feedback anyone on here gives.
It’s frustrating that I don’t have the drip on top up. The race riders I have testing it rave about it for stage races. Works ok as a stand alone but no drip on can ever penetrate and clean a chain like a hot melt immersion so it’s definitely more effective as a top up.
As for cleaning down the chains between waxes to remove dust, alcohol wipes are ideal. If I can find time to get some at reasonable money I’ll add them to my website too. With Covid surplus they aren’t too difficult to find though.
Quick tip for after a wet ride, personally I just throw it back in the wax as it’s easy to do but if you don’t have time, take your chain off and wrap it in a microfibre cloth until you can wax it again, no idea why that stops corrosion but it does. A drip on application as soon as you come off the bike will also do the job. Remember if you use oil or anything with an oil content, you’ll need to solvent clean before putting your chain back in wax.
I completed a 24 hour Everesting off road last Friday on a waxed chain and had no issues at all - can thoroughly recommend!
I did my first ride on a waxed chain at the weekend, first impressions, quiet, smooth shifting, felt low friction.
I cleaned my chain in an Aldi ultrasonic jewellery cleaner using hot water and fairy liquid as a degreaser. The chain hadn't been cleaned in 9 months and was really dirty,it took about 10x 8minutes cycles before the water ran clear. I finished with a final rinse of boiling water from the kettle.
To wax the chain, I laid it in the bottom of the smallest stainless steel pan (12cm diameter), stipped the foil wrappers off and the wicks out of 10 tealight and dropped those on top. set the heat to 3/10 (electric halogen stove top) and left it for half an hour, occasionally jiggling the pan gently to clear any air bubbles. I hooked the chain out with a spoke, left it to cool for 5 minute and fitted back on the bike with the quick link, glad I did this outside and with vinyl gloves on, wax flakes everywhwere!
I've got some ancient(20yr old) Finishline PTFE grease in my toolbox, is it work adding some to the wax next time?
I cleaned my chain in an Aldi ultrasonic jewellery cleaner using hot water and fairy liquid as a degreaser. The chain hadn’t been cleaned in 9 months and was really dirty,it took about 10x 8minutes cycles before the water ran clear. I finished with a final rinse of boiling water from the kettle.
Put the chain in something smaller (even a ziplock bag will do for water based solvents) with the solvent/degreaser, then submerge in the ultrasonic bath. You only need a very small volume of actual liquid to clean the chain.
Having said that I just give it a swish in a jam-jar with the same solvent each time.
I’ve got some ancient(20yr old) Finishline PTFE grease in my toolbox, is it work adding some to the wax next time?
You'd be better off buying PTFE powder or other additives. The concentration of PTFE in the grease will be sufficient in the grease. You'd need probably about same concentration in the wax.
I'd only add grease/oil if you wanted to soften the wax a bit. Which will make it less flakey and more tacky like putoline.
I would definitely add something to normal paraffin wax. I have got some beeswax furniture polish I use on the car seats. Pure beeswax is the consistency of paraffin wax (i.e. normal candles) but the polish is about the consistency of Putoline. It's softened with olive oil. So I would recommend using that or Rape seed oil in your paraffin wax, otherwise it'll be flaky and potentially come off your chain during the ride.
That said the bike grease would probably have a similar effect.
Just ordered some Daz wax.
I've been using Putoline for about 4 years now, but I'm tired of the gunk building up on cassettes and jockey wheels and it really doesn't run that clean in my experience. Still a high potential for chainring tattoos and god forbid you unship a chain on a ride and have to get some on your hands.
Apols if this has been covered, but could someone explain with science how heating it on the hob or in a rice cooker can damage GLF wax please?
Probably worth a read of this -
To quote "A rice cooker will blast heat in like a kettle on cook and this breaks down paraffin’s
long chain molecules damaging its lubricity. Then after rapidly heating to
100dg, it then switches to warm. So if you pop chain in and turn rice cooker on
and come back sometime later, wax will be at 60dg c, near its point of setting
solid again, so you will bring a chain out with far too much excess wax on it
making for a heck of mess when first start riding, and it’s a waste of wax."
I've found a cheap slow cooker from Sainsburys is doing a good job with the glfwax. I just leave it in there so I can lay the chain on top while cold, turn the cooker on and walk away knowing the wax will reach the right temperature and let the chain slowly sink in.
Thanks @chaos, I've read the text on ZFC but I was hoping for a more scientific reference/take on "it will damage the long chain molecules in paraffin wax". My Google-fu may be weak but I can't find any other discussion of this online, apart from in relation to chain waxing. Which potentially seems odd given the various industrial uses of paraffin wax.
I just googled 'thermal stability of paraffin waxes' and there are loads of references, eg:
https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/76177
Section 2.1.1
Thermal stability of paraffin waxes is defined as the maximum temperature limit after which thermal decomposition begins and it is normally 150–170°C
- so i suspect the concern is that if exposed to a hot element, then the local temperature of the wax exposed to the element could exceed those sorts of numbers and hence degrade
Thanks that's very helpful, I'm no chemist.
I will check how hot the pan base of my rice cooker gets with a thermometer.
Like beetlejuice I’m here, except only need to say my name once!
Ok so temperate and damage to wax, it’s quite a complex thing and has been explained to me by my tamed professor but with regard to all the in depth details, my head exploded. Basically overheating the wax won’t ruin it totally but will change its features. It shortens the long chain hydrocarbons and weakens the bonds in the material, grades of paraffin all have different melting points and temperatures they can tolerate, that’s why I recommend a slow cooker on low/medium with the lid off. It beats the wax slowly and won’t exceed 100 degrees usually.
Heating on a hob or rice cooker will definitely exceed this temperature and that does harm the base wax I use. The effect is that the wax feels easier to break, hard to describe but probably more chalky and won’t adhere to your chain as well. It will still work, but just won’t last as long.
The additives are really what it’s about anyway, at least in the case of our wax, the wax is a carrier and also a great barrier for contamination, the main lubricant and wear protection comes from the additives and that’s where we’ve spent most of the time and money researching.
Damn I've just bought some Putoline with the aim of going to chain waxing and it seems like I should have bought one of Daz's bricks instead.
If I do continue with the Putoline, anyone know how to get the bloody lid off? Google translate says something like insert screwdriver into cam but that makes no sense as it's just a rolled edge. It doesn't look like a paint tin as there's nothing to hook onto and I don't want to go butchering it.
Cheers
G
If you want a much quicker, more temp controlled wax melter, I’m using a Lakeland multi cooker on slow cooker setting, it melts wax a lot quicker but so far I’m not finding any degradation in the quality of the wax. Recommend them!
eApols if this has been covered, but could someone explain with science how heating it on the hob or in a rice cooker can damage GLF wax please?
Easiest way to think of it is the chain will break at the weakest point. And hydrocarbon chains are no different.
Unsaturated chains with double bonds, like unsaturated fat, are easier to break because you've got a big cloud of electrons fizzing round just waiting to react. This is pat of the reason why synthetic oil is better than mineral oil, synthetic oil is made of alkanes (saturated) rather than a random mix of alkanes/alkenes which makes it more stable over time. It's also why replacing your synthetic oil at 6,000 rather than 24,000* miles is a waste of money unless you have some other issue contaminating it, the oil itself is fine.
So when you heat up oil or wax until it begins to smoke, the long unsaturated chains are breaking up. So your =C20 paraffin becomes C9 + C9 + CO + CO, then CO reacts with itself to make CO2 and C, which is why it's smoky.
*or whatever the manual says
[several steps have been glossed over for the sake of simplicity]
If I do continue with the Putoline, anyone know how to get the bloody lid off? Google translate says something like insert screwdriver into cam but that makes no sense as it’s just a rolled edge. It doesn’t look like a paint tin as there’s nothing to hook onto and I don’t want to go butchering it.
It's exactly like a paint tin unless they've changed it.
Hmm. My current bat h of putoline was initially used for a few times in a dff with a naked element. Heated up really quickly but it did smoke a bit. Only at first though, until there was enough liquid to connect the heat around.
I wonder if it's harmed it.
thisisnotaspoon
If I do continue with the Putoline, anyone know how to get the bloody lid off? Google translate says something like insert screwdriver into cam but that makes no sense as it’s just a rolled edge. It doesn’t look like a paint tin as there’s nothing to hook onto and I don’t want to go butchering it.It’s exactly like a paint tin unless they’ve changed it.
If it were I'm sure it'd be simple. The lid I have appears to be a single continuous piece in the centre that wraps up the vertical and over. There's no obvious leverable point except for the very edge and that wraps so far over that I can't see anything to lever against. I'd take a pic but I'm at work and it's in the garage at home.
I seem to remember basically having to claw at the edge of the Putoline lid with some pliers to get the ****er off.
Thanks to Daz, TINAS and others re. damaging wax by oerheating. I don't really want to buy another appliance and send my mucky old ricecooker to landfill, I will see if there's a cheapo slow cooker on FB marketplace nearby...
Hmm. My current bat h of putoline was initially used for a few times in a dff with a naked element. Heated up really quickly but it did smoke a bit. Only at first though, until there was enough liquid to connect the heat around.
I wonder if it’s harmed it.
My first Putoline tin ~2008 definitely started off hard, the chain would jump and skip if I pedaled hard out the garage on a cold day and excess wax came off as flakes. Over a decade of generally not really thinking about it, throwing wet chains, oily chains, greasy chains, into it at 190F it definitely became softer and greasier.
My second tin seems to have started off where the first left off.
So either:
1) My memory is cloudy.
2) There's variance between their batches or they've changed the recipe, and it does go off if mistreated.
I've said previously though I'm not sure it's enough to worry about. Hot waxing chains at all seems to be the big improvement, swapping waxes or cookers probably less so. If I was setting up from scratch, yes I would clean chains in an ultrasonic bath of hexane, then wax them in a slow cooker of MSW or Daz's wax. But until my fryer packs up I'll probably stick with cleaning in diesel, and putoline with a slightly smoky warm-up.
