You’ll never get a lubricant that can clean and fully lubricate your chain on the bike. The contamination that matters is the stuff deep inside the chain, that’s where wear occurs. It is fair enough that you don’t want to remove chains though and I’ll have a drip on for sale soon that will be fine for that purpose.
At 6.5k miles though your chain will have been long past the 0.5 wear mark and you will need a full new drivetrain. Chains are so cheap that I’d rather be strict with that wear limit and save the need for new cassette, jockey wheels and chainrings. Plus everything is nice and clean looking and I can throw it in the car or van without worrying about the black mess everywhere. Downsides for every upside isn’t there though.
Definitely have a read at the lifecycle cost tests on ZFC, it’s not an insignificant difference.
At 6.5k miles though your chain will have been long past the 0.5 wear mark
Weirdly not though, SRAM mix of GX, XO1, wasn't even close the .5 wear, 12 speed seems indestructible. I only changed it because (during the COVID supply issues) I didn't want to end up with a worn out chain and cassette, and no way to get replacements, had things been regular, I probs. wouldn't have bothered.
Downsides for every upside isn’t there though.
Oh without a doubt, I even get that some folks love the whole "doings" of the waxing process, I still think the best lube is the one that you'll use, once you've found a system that you like, than that's the key.
I suppose it depends if the stat is at the top of the oil and the element at the base? Don’t really know
On the one I dismantled to try and fix, it was at the bottom.
using Juice Lubes Viking). It’s application is 20 secs at the end of cleaning your bike, I’m done and dusted by the time you’ve taken off your chain, fired up your pan,
But I don't do that every ride. I just wheel my bike in and walk away. And how are you getting the grit out of your chain? Are you just adding lube to grit?
Your wet lube probably isn't doing anything after the first muddy section - mine never was. That's the difference.
I still think the best lube is the one that you’ll use, once you’ve found a system that you like, than that’s the key.
The one that you like but also the one your chain likes!
Had no idea slow cookers and such were so cheap. Must admit a fryer makes more sense but will look at it when I get 5 minutes.
A fryer doesn't really make more sense. It's capable of heating the wax to the point where it ignites, which is potentially dangerpus, but also completely unnecessary. A 20-quid slow cooker sits there quietly for an hour, never reaches that point and is cheap and easy and safe to use. Sure, it's slower to heat up, but you can go and get on with your life while that happens while the chain gradually slips into the melting wax.
Anyway, as a recent convert using MSW, I'm a total convert. The only real hassle is the initial chain prep, which takes about ten minutes, after that it's dead simple and gloriously clean.
I'm sold, or at least happy to give it a try, why not. Am I right in thinking I need about 1kg of wax for a 1-1.5l slow cooker?
But I don’t do that every ride. I just wheel my bike in and walk away. And how are you getting the grit out of your chain? Are you just adding lube to grit?
Yeah, neither do I (lube after every ride) currently haven't added an extra lube in a couple of weeks The grit is coming out when I point the hose at it (which I haven't done in weeks now), and the Juice lube is pretty watery on application, lots of grit washed/wiped away then. I know all the tests show wax is hugely better, but I'm just not going to get involved with DFF and taking the chain off every few months, I just can't be bothered. Like I said, some-one invents a wax lube in a dropper, I'd be all over it.
Your wet lube probably isn’t doing anything after the first muddy section
And yet; 6500 miles and not even .5 wear, so what am I missing here? I've tried wax, and TBH I'm happy on Juice lubes Viking, it's clean, I don't get grinding, It's lasting through the winter, and I get enough life from my chains and cassette. Happy days
And yet; 6500 miles and not even .5 wear, so what am I missing here?
You're lucky with the local mud you have, I guess. I can't speak for your local rides but for me the difference in durability is night and day.
When it's muddy down here, if I use wet lube the first half a mile of muddy trail has the chain making a horrendous grinding noise which remains the rest of the ride, unless I cover a long section of road to work the grit out. Probably takes 5-7 miles. If I use Putoline this doesn't happen. The gritty water doesn't get into the chain in the first place.
You don't think I just make all this stuff up, do you? I've been searching for lubes that actually stay on the chain in muddy rides ever since I started riding in the early 90s. This is the first time I've found what I was looking for. I'm happy to come up with a fairly easy system to support this. I really don't find it any faff at all just to pop the chain off. It's really no bother at all.
I'm glad your system works for you but it doesn't for me.
Here's the chain on my XC bike that has done probably half a dozen dusty rides. I think I did this back in the spring. As you can see, it's not messy. It's still riding smoothly so no need to re-fry.
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A fryer doesn’t really make more sense. It’s capable of heating the wax to the point where it ignites, which is potentially dangerpus, but also completely unnecessary. A 20-quid slow cooker sits there quietly for an hour, never reaches that point and is cheap and easy and safe to use.
Capable yes (maybe) but they have fail-safes that stop that happening. If you're happy to use one in your kitchen then you should be ok using one in your garage I reckon. And a slow cooker may not ignite your oil but you can still knock it over and it's still full of hot wax. That said, our slow cooker has a thermostat which could also fail and possibly at 250W overheat the wax. But since it's not designed to be full of oil it might not have secondary and tertiary fail-safes that I would expect to see in a fryer because fryers are designed to be full of flammable liquid. I'm not an appliance engineer but I've taken enough apart, and I don't think it's necessarily as straightforward as you think.
You’re lucky with the local mud you have
Calderdale grit and Peaks...probs not that lucky.
You don’t think I just make all this stuff up, do you?
No of course not, all I've said is that I can't be bothered with melting wax in a stove, tried it once and moved it on, probably user error! if it works for you, crack on!
I’m glad your system works for you but it doesn’t for me.
I'm really not interested in saying one is better than the other, all I'm interested in is comparing them; more knowledge, it's all grist to the mill isn't it? I'm a firm believer in getting to understand how to get the best from your chosen system, looks like we've both got to that point with completely different lubes, which is interesting, no? I've no other agenda. There's always more ways to skin a cat.
edit: seen your pics; my chain isn't as clean as yours, but it's not black with oil either.
I definitely agree that a slow cooker is a much safer option though and anyone who uses a DFF should never leave it unattended. I’m not entirely sure that the instructions on the Putoline website are 100% safe either!
Interesting to hear someone else agree the putoline instructions aren’t particularly safe, I certainly wouldn’t be happy selling my wax that way. If wax ever gets to the stage of smoking it’s just a step away from ignition. The smoke isn’t actually smoke but rather vapour that will ignite with a naked flame, try blowing out a candle and holding a match in the vapour/smoke coming off it and you’ll see what I mean.
Just be careful because I’d hate to hear a story of a house burnt or someone hurt, that’s why I prefer a slow cooker, it might take more time overall but I just let it do it’s thing while I wash my bike and myself.
Somebody asked how much wax for a small slow cooker, one pack of about 500g is all you need and lasts ages. I reckon about 40 waxes but that is so variable depending on conditions and contamination.
I use three different pots for different procedures but then I’m testing and querying every detail of this.
What's the optimum goal temperature wise for the chain wax?
About 85-100. It’s not terribly critical but you do need to make sure you leave the chain in the wax until it is hot. The cold surfaces of the chain make any wax that touches it and solidify, this stops the wax from fully penetrating.
I emailed Putoline and asked and For Putoline it’s 70 to 80 Celsius. It’s not particularly runny at this temp though.
Flash point is >200C so easily achieved in a DFF or indeed a gas hob which is a method suggested on the Putoline website instructions.
No smoke from my DFF at any point. I did previously have one that had a naked element immersed in the wax, that smoked like mad because the initial melted liquid got super heated before the heat got anywhere near the thermostat. That was the free one. Subsequent ones have been smoke free through the entire process.
As for temperature - about 100C is enough to melt, it gets runnier the hotter you get, but don't go much above 140 or so we're told. Less runny means more gets on the chain, so may be better for mud slogging, but less runny is cleaner so may be better for summer. But both need wiping after a short spin if you want it to stay as clean as my pics.
I’m really not interested in saying one is better than the other, all I’m interested in is comparing them; more knowledge, it’s all grist to the mill isn’t it?
Indeed, I'm curious as to why people report different results. It may be that some are less sensitive to the grinding noise, it may be that the noise is just related to outer plates and not the rollers so is a red herring.
Flash point is >200C so easily achieved in a DFF
I think mine goes up to 190 but it could go higher if the stat fails.
I wipe down the outer plates when the chain is fresh out of the pot, otherwise no cleaning. The wax doesn’t accumulate on rollers or cassette. I haven’t tested putoline and i don’t know of anyone who has, the closest test I can think of is the one zero friction cycling did on absolute blacks hot melt version. Both appear to have softer base waxes.
Here’s the chain on my XC bike that has done probably half a dozen dusty rides. I think I did this back in the spring. As you can see, it’s not messy. It’s still riding smoothly so no need to re-fry.
@Molgrips - that's impressive! The only time I've had a chain look that clean with Putoline is after multiple muddy CX rides/hosings-down/wipes with GT85. By which point it's ready for re-application anyway 🙄
Wonder what I'm doing differently... I try to take the chain out at the last possible moment (e.g. when the wax is as cool as it will go before a skin starts forming). In the past I felt I had been taking chain out too hot and losing molten wax which dropped back out of the rollers. Either way I never get TJ's heroic mileages out of one application!
MSW in a 1.5l slow cooker for me (although I'm going to need new wax soon so will probably give Daz's a go)
Sits on the workbench out in the garage, chain in cold on a hanger and leave it for an hour, have a nail stuck into a rafter to hang the waxed chain on with a sacrificial bit on cardboard underneath to catch the drips.
I always thought that one of the key elements with hot waxing was the heating of the chain with the wax allowing the chain to expand slightly and allow the wax to get inside the rollers
I try to take the chain out at the last possible moment (e.g. when the wax is as cool as it will go before a skin starts forming). In the past I felt I had been taking chain out too hot and losing molten wax which dropped back out of the rollers
I take it out hot, after about 5 mins in the wax and wipe as much off as I can. I don't see any benefit in leaving it for ages. The excess is what causes the gunk although the gunk is nowhere near as bad as repeated applications of normal lube if it's not being washed e.g. a commuter bike.
But the way to get it that clean, IME, is to wipe down thoroughly again after the first ride.
Either way I never get TJ’s heroic mileages out of one application!
Me neither, usually, but I think it depends on what you consider a noisy chain. I think that because the initial waxing is near silent, you tend to think of any noise as meaning it needs re-doing. But when my fryer was broken I got a new road chain and used a good wet lube applied generously and it was really noisy straight away. So I think that I get used to a silent chain, but I could probably go much further between lubings than I think.
Also TJ runs a hub gear with a straight chainline, that probably makes far less noise to begin with.
I wonder if some of you have too hot so it drips out of the rollers? Just a thought
It also depends on conditions.
TJ that’s s good point about being too hot. Must do a bit of testing around that possibility though it won’t happen in a slow cooker on low with lid off. I’ve had similar poor performance with an overheated batch of wax. It worked ok ish but just didn’t seem to stick to the chain so well. After the dip in wax for 15 mins I shake my chain well under the wax then hang it over the pot gently. A track pump is a good tool for this purpose by the way, turn the handle 90 degrees and you have a post to hang the chain on.
I do think the wax lasts a lot longer inside the chain than we think, I did an accidental test on a chain that had covered 500 road miles, rinsed it in hot water and then cooled it under hot water again quickly, it set firm just like a newly waxed chain would so I guess there was plenty of wax left in there. That’s one of the things I’m going to get data and images of from my testing but I’m waiting to get access to big toys I’m not allowed to use unsupervised 😬
Thank you all for the information and advice. I’ve managed to find a small slow cooker on Gumtree for £5 that I will collect this evening.
I’m cleaning a new SRAM chain in a bottle of ipa and it’s very surprising just how much debris has also been removed- looks like tiny slivers of metal from production.
I wonder if some of you have too hot so it drips out of the rollers?
I dunno, when I do mine hot it's still stiff after it's cooled down.
rinsed it in hot water and then cooled it under hot water again quickly, it set firm just like a newly waxed chain would
Yeah I think you can re-flow Putoline with some other oil, but maybe I could do the same thing with a heat gun. Will try it.
I am certain that the wax stsys in the chain a long time this is mine 1200 road miles sonce it was done including 3couple of hundred wet miles.
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I ran my finger along the inner side of it. The two black lines are where wax is still coming out from between the inner and outer links and when you twist it it stll fes like there is wax there and its still silent. I susoect with the dry outer surface you might be getting more chainring wear
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I did wonder if you could have some sort of semi-automatic chain waxing machine setup; A chainring on a slow geared motor or a stepper that could move your chain through a wax bath a short section at a time so you immerse a bit and then index along, and then further along blast it with cold air to help set the wax, and then another bit that spins brushes and/or buffers over the outside to clear excess off the outside.
Sounds like an incredible waste of human time and effort, but also a fun project for someone obsessive enough...
Apologies in advance if I go full nerd, I can’t help myself!
From what my testing has shown so far, the wax definitely stays in the links of the chain, the rollers/shoulders/pins much longer than my recommended 8-15 hours off-road or 250 miles on the road. I think though what’s happening is that it gets repositioned to the rear side of the rollers under pressure through time and when you heat it that all flows back. I think doing that defeats one of the best things about the wax, it doesn’t hold debris and dirt plus the fact it moves out of the chain through time means it brings any dust with it. A dip in your wax pot melts any wax and a good shake under the molten wax hopefully removes most of it. As for wear on the high pressure areas, the additive I use, I call tungstenite, Is really interesting stuff, to simplify what’s happening it sticks to the surfaces of the chain under pressure and forms a hard layer. As it resists sticking to itself then the two faces of the chain rollers,shoulders slide over each other easily and enhance the performance. That’s a very oversimplified explanation but it’s hard to explain and you’d get bored reading my diatribe. I’m working on an even better version but the additives are horrendously expensive, I think overkill for mountain bikes but definitely worth it for road racing and TT. I need to save more than 5w though to make any difference to me 😬
I probably haven’t explained that well but yeah, interesting topic. I can’t wait to get the images of what’s really happening inside a chain, I’ll share them when I get them.
Geek away sir
I find it validating as i started the putoline thingy on here
Been using it more than a decade now
I was here when you started all that TJ, You are responsible for the rabbit hole I disappeared down 😬
What happens to all the dirt and grit that comes off the chain after multiple washes? Does it just sit at the bottom?
I tried a mix of paraffin wax (bike specific), molybendum grease and micro-teflon last winter. However, it didn't seem to co-agulate as a mixture and broke off the chain quite easily. Gone back to lubes but may try again soon or go for some putoline as I don't like chain maintenance.
Actually, just reading the previous posts (!). Seems like I had it too hot/took the chain out too early.
I think overkill for mountain bikes
I dunno, they have the hardest conditions to deal with. I'm not interested in saving watts, just saving chains. If yours is more durable than Putoline I'll switch. Or if you can come up with a more durable version...
we (NPL) have some experience of testing efficiency of chain and sprockets, and could run independent testing of your various waxes. Message me if you want and I can put you in contact with people.
www.npl.co.uk
Can't you just all shave like the rest of us?
Oh the version I mean as overkill for mountain bike is the new one I’m working on, it’s a complex additive that none of the other waxes use and is incredibly expensive, not totally sure of cost but the additive alone will cost me more than I sell the current wax for. I set out with the aim of creating the most efficient wax possible regardless of cost so that’s what I’m working on with an eccentric professor, honestly I should do a video because he is class.
The current one I’m happy with, I wouldn’t sell it otherwise and certainly wouldn’t be talking about it on here. I’ll not say it’s perfect because I’m always looking ways to improve it, but it’s working well for myself and a lot of riders I have testing for me. I’ll have proper data soon but I’m not going to do any bullhit marketing. Plenty of other well known companies do that, if you read the ZFC test data you’ll see what I mean. They have a much bigger budget than I have though😬
Shave? Have you seen my legs😉
I'd buy some to test Daz but it's a bit tricky without a second deep fat fryer..
just got a slow cooker off the bay, pick up on the way home from work tomorrow, for £8
I'll give it a go. Any discount codes for STWers 😉 ?
Aw I really don’t want to hijack a thread to advertise, kind of feel I’ve already done that, sorry OP
But there might already be a code out for the Tour de France if you check my instagram, for anyone who has ordered without using it I think I threw in a wee extra to them all. If I didn’t then give me a shout
Sorry Daz🤣
My only waxing effort was using the Absolute Black Graphen Wax. Utter waste of money. I bought a new chain and followed the instructions to a tee. A single return wet gravel commute and it needed reapplying. I tried once more and then left it in the corner of the shed.
If anyone's interested, this is the Cycling Tips podcast that goes into chain waxing and chain lube comparisons exhaustively. To be brutally honest, the whole Putoline culture war thing on here kind of put me off, but this made sense of it all for me:
https://cyclingtips.com/2022/03/nerd-alert-podcast-finding-the-best-chain-lube-for-your-needs/
My only waxing effort was using the Absolute Black Graphen Wax. Utter waste of money. I bought a new chain and followed the instructions to a tee. A single return wet gravel commute and it needed reapplying. I tried once more and then left it in the corner of the shed.
I've used that on the TT bike, for those critical extra microWatts, and it's not very robust - particularly to the rain like you observed. Not a product for general riding around.
Doubtful it's even good for performance if it it wearing that fast - you would need a freshly-waxed chain each test. tbf a lot of testers would actually do this, or at least re-wax very regularly.
The podcast linked above is worth a listen, it’s with Adam from zero friction cycling. I’ve chatted to Adam a bit and he is definitely worth listening to on this topic.
With regards to the AB graphene wax, have a read at Adam’s review I linked earlier. Way back in my testing I considered a softer wax approach similar to their base wax and very quickly abandoned that idea. Worth reading their review.
I had a rider racing the Ras in Ireland a few weeks ago, he rode 400 miles and one really wet day and was still happy with it, despite me telling him to take a couple of chains and change at 250 miles. Efficiency drops off slowly so for racing it makes sense to wax more often but it definitely lasts well if watt saving isn’t your thing.
I’m also working on a drip on that will work perfectly as a top up for my hot melt wax, my current version isn’t as good as I want as it’s a bit too soft when it sets on the chain. When I get it sorted that will be ideal for those who wax but want an easy top up. It will work as a stand alone product but drip on will never be as good as immersive wax.
I really must shut up now. Give the podcast a listen
When I get it sorted that will be ideal for those who wax but want an easy top up.
I've found a light wet lube perfect for this.
