Just looking on amazon, and it turns out several things I didn't know existed, actually do.
1) Molten parafin wax as a beauty treatment that you dip your hands/feet into.
2) Scented wax for the above.
3) Temperature controlled tubs for doing this it.
Scented* chain wax anyone?
*not putoline smell.
Well I've joined the 'throngs' of waxers! I bought a 0.9ltr Tower DFF from TJ Hughes for £15 and some putoline. Cooked my first 2 chains on Sunday and no dramas (that's as much of a surprise to me as anyone else 😂) having previously tested a couple of chains with someone else cooking them for me - thanks @nobbingsford 😁. The Tower DFF does not have an exposed element which, having read through some of the comments on here, I thought was wise.
Ive joined the putoline crew as well. It's not as clean as i had hoped but does seem to work well and is super quiet. It's also much easier to do than i imagined. I found a second hand electric fondue in a recycling shop near us which is perfect. No chance of overheating as it isn't that powerful
I cleaned the last two chains with white spirit before frying. Doesn't seem to have negatively impacted the results, if anything it's cleaner. But it's not wet out in trails or roads at the moment. I'm wondering if the solvent helped draw the wax into the chain somewhat? No idea.
I’ve been using MSW on my new bike and I’m pretty unimpressed thus far. Gets noisy after only a few dry rides of 50 kms or so. When I say noisy it’s not the chain being noisy whilst pedalling - it’s when I shift that it starts to clunk louder and louder. The Putoline never did this but it was in a completely different bike. I have no idea if the wear rate is any different as yet - I’ll measure tomorrow but it’s an XO1 chain that has done about 500 miles so far. If it’s started to wear I will have a couple of blocks of MSW for sale along with a slow cooker!!!
Daz please send me a DM with a link or someone else stick a link on here. I WANT DAZ WAX!
I’ve been using a camping stove so bolloxed my plutoline.
Thanks
Glfwax.com
I've switched from Putoline to Daz's glfwax, initially on my road bikes and now across the entire fleet.
Lasts really well (I did a whole weekend riding in torrential rain in the lakes a few weeks ago) and chains are so much better to handle without the tackiness of putoline. Just ned to scrub the old detritus off my mechs and frame so they look as clean as the chain and cassette 😀
fwiw; I use a "professional wax heater" from Argos; it has the advantage of both thermostatic control and an element that doesn't go above about 95C; at the expense that the wax pot is small (it does easily fit a chain in thuogh)
That does look good, but the basket on a deep fat fryer is handy. How long does it take that thing to fully liquify the wax?
There’s variance between their batches or they’ve changed the recipe, and it does go off if mistreated.
Rules around VOC/Solvents in manufacturing plants may have impacted the consistency (and effectiveness) of putoline.
I know there have been some materials related issues around reduction and deletion of various chemicals from manufacturing processes.
I reckon it's about half an hour; though I don't ever time it. Just chuck the chain on top; switch it on then remember I left it on sometime later; grab the chain and chuck it in a cermic plantpot to let it cool. glfwax sell a swisher (a piece of wire with a screw connector on) which sits out the wax and makes retrieval simple. I'll time it next time and let you know !
Chain wear zilch on my XO1 chain so that’s OK. I rewaxed today ready for a 60 miler tomorrow morning so I’ll see how it is. I wonder how different to MSW the GLFwax is?
I have bunch of metal tags made from 3mm aluminium strip. These have a hole drilled in for a keyring, then a number of holes that corresponds to the number of the chain. Each bike has 3 chains, one (one hole), two, (two holes) and three (three holes). This means I can tell which chain is which. Treated and used chains get stored in labelled recycled take away plastic tubs.
I put the keyring through the eyelets in the ends of the chain, and then lob the chains in the wax. When I take them out I hang them by the keyring from a hook above an old Amazon box which absorbs any drips. When the chain is nearly at room temp, I wipe the exterior plates down to remove any excess wax. When cold, I store in the boxes.
I run them for approx 100km (offroad) before rotating to the next chain.
It is way better than any other lube system I have ever used.
Do the additives in @DAZ wax separate when melted? Do the pot need stirring?
Is it worth making a small mesh tray to support the chain in the wax bath so any contamination sinks to the bottom under the chain?
Could you then scrap off the bottom contaminated layer or would that lose the additives?
I have bunch of metal tags...
This is madness, I mean, I bet you get amazing mileage, but clearly you are insane. 🙂
The additives in GLF do separate or sink slightly, when we were working on the ideal mix we tried adding all kinds of surfactants etc to avoid this but they all had an effect on the performance of the wax in use. We also looked at the penetration of the additives into the chain under electron microscope and arrived at the concentration, particle size and process we use now. The agitation of the chain in the molten wax is sufficient to stir the mix and ensure sufficient penetration. Remember your chain sinks down to where the greatest concentration of additives sit when melting and then shaking the chain submerged allows this to flow into the links.
Just one point to remember, leave your chain submerged for 15 mins at least, preferably more, this allows the inner surfaces of the chain to heat up and stops wax solidifying internally in your chain, this is needed to make sure your wax is filling every small gap. If you want to go into it very deep, a heated ultrasonic cleaner does this even better, but that’s being very OCD.
What’s the difference between MSW and GLF? Well I can’t give too much away but our wax has different properties which means it avoids abrasion better, and our additive while apparently the same material, has a different appearance. One of our initial batches had the same appearance however we stopped using that additive.
We also have a much more premium product in development, the performance of this one is much better, but it is much more expensive and probably only for race chain use.
Both products will be going for testing at a popular test facility when finances allow.
So would a rack to keep the chain out of the silt at the bottom mean that you weren't getting the ideal concentration of additives?
I haven’t tested the rack idea but it’s definitely sound principles, I haven’t really found contamination to have a huge negative effect in truth though, yeah your wax starts to last a shorter time after 30-40 waxes but it’s worth having to change to fresh wax more often to save any drivetrain cleaning in my opinion (I’m selling it so would say that 😉)
If your chain is very dirty, a good rinse under boiling water cleans most of it off, I have an old kettle I whack it in and boil it for that purpose. I’d only do that in really stinking days and never on my road bike.
Coincidentally, I made a basket for my slow cooker from some thin welded mesh I had lying around the other day:
If your chain is very dirty, a good rinse under boiling water cleans most of it off, I have an old kettle I whack it in and boil it for that purpose. I’d only do that in really stinking days and never on my road bike.
Took me a while to work out that boiling water is a much more effective way of cleaning wax off things than solvents.
Just stumbled across this and have been wax curious for a while.
Quick question and apologies if this has already been covered…how meticulous do I need to be with cleaning my chainrings and jockey wheels?
They have only ever seen drip wax in the form of Squirt.
I’m starting with a new (fully stripped) chain and cassette.
if you've only used drip lube before I don't think it will be too bad for build up and you can get away without. If they do have build up, a wipe over the chainrings with some degreaser (I use Screwfix No Nonsense) and maybe drop the jockey wheels out and give them a quick clean.
Using Dazwax (glf) on my road bike, and there's no buildup in use. Putoline on the gravel / winter and MTB, that can build up on jockey wheels in particular
The agitation of the chain in the molten wax is sufficient to stir the mix
So a deep fat fryer with the chip basket is probably good for this purpose...?
Hi Daz.
Your GLF wax website is good and informative.
I totally agree that initial solvent cleaning is vital with a new chain. It’s obvious that the hot wax needs to bond to the metal and can’t do that with manufacturers grease in the links.
Then, once clean and waxed - no more solvents and a lovely “fresh” chain every rewax.
I’ve been using MSW then Silca hot melt wax a few years now (chain and drivetrain wear is massively reduced and it’s all lovely and clean)
I do rinse in boiling water after any wet ride as ZFC recommend. Never in a closed container, it almost explodes when opened. I use an old pan on the hob and a couple of water changes then dry with hot air gun.
Good to see you explaining all that here.
https://www.glfwax.com/pages/instructions-1
You’re right that Adam at Zerofrictioncycling is a treasure trove of info on all this wax stuff.
BTW
I think you mentioned a fryer at one point there, maybe you meant the slow cooker you mention elsewhere? Just sayin. I learned that keeping the wax above 200F (93C)for very long will risk damaging the wax.
At £20 for your GLF wax I find it hard to imagine why anyone would bother with candles / homebrew wax. Even a low end Sram cassette costs a fortune these days and wasting drivetrain parts is hardly “eco”.
Your prewaxed chains seem a proper bargain too if the wax looks after the drivetrain like MSW and Silca waxes do.
As you mentioned - what the hell did AB do with theirs tho!! Their other products are fab.
I guess it’s too costly to get yours tested by ZFC? I’d love to see the result and switch to yours.
So a deep fat fryer with the chip basket is probably good for this purpose…?
Depends, a DFF will heat up to close to 200C which means that you could have very high heater temps and start the break the wax down - as per discussion at top of this page.
The basket is a decent idea though
Cheers @theotherjonv…I have the ScrewFix stuff, will give them a wipe down with a rag soaked in that then perhaps repeat with methylated spirits.
Didn’t fancy whipping my chainrings off and soaking overnight although it might actually be less effort…
I say don't cut corners, waxing has to be done right, I've been doing it years with excellent results - this is all very well explained on Zerofrisctioncycling, he has dome hundreds of hours of scientific testing. He's the one to trust when it comes to advice.
If any lube other than wax has been used (or with a new chain) you'd be crazy not to do the initial clean right, because the wax has to bond to the metal, it can't do that with any residue in there which means it won't work right, if you don't clean right and it doesn’t bond then you may aswell not bother with immersive wax IMO
clean the chain and quick link like this:
loop the chain onto a swisher, make one like this out of a coat hanger
https://moltenspeedwax.com/pages/making-a-swisher-tool
- no need for a basket
3 or more baths (5 for a new SRAM chain) each of about 200ml white spirit/turps (first bath - soak overnight then agitate well) tip out the dirty solvent for recycling, clean the container, repeat, agitate each time 'til the solvent is coming out totally clean (last bath can be saved for use as first bath next chain you clean).
next
dry the chain off (hot air gun/hairdryer)
In a new or cleaned container - agitate the chain in 2 baths of meths to get rid of the white spirit residue (or it stops the wax bonding). 2nd bath can be first bath next chain.
dry chain off properly then into the melted wax in the slow cooker (or put it on the surface & let it melt in)
No need to wax quick link, chain goes into hot wax (slow cooker on low, lid off it takes about an hour to come to temp), leave ( lid off to prevent overheating, wax doesn’t like temps above 93C ) Leave for about 20 mins for chain to come to wax temp, then swish about for 5 min, hang above the slow cooker to drip off.
Chain will be stiff once cooled - free it up by pulling around the chain around a dowel til its pretty loose, the rest of the break in is 10 mins pedalling.
You're on a budget, right, so the vital thing is to do this right and save long term, even a GX cassette is £150+ so well worth preserving.
Wet ride? chain off, r turn on slow cooker, rince chain in a few baths of boiling water (in an open container) dry and into the wax. It's real easy once you get going.
'Don't bother with all that' some say - sorry but if so I feel you may as well not bother with wax at all.
Tbh I’ve got a new chain (now soaking in white spirit) and new cassette so might as well go new jockey wheels since they’re only about £20 anyway.
Didn’t really want the faff of removing chainrings but I can see it makes sense…
Or, as ZFC say, you can use some Ceramic Speed UFO Clean and it will take 5 mins to remove the factory grease - the UFO Clean product is expensive though and possibly not in the spirit (geddit!) of the thread title but it is a lot quicker - esp with a SRAM chain.
Since we're all here, what's the best chain checker, is it that Park CC-4? I understand most checkers don't really measure the relevant wear which is between the front face of two consecutive rollers (i.e. the surfaces that interact with the cassette).
I'm 'impatiently' trying to wear out my current Ultegra chain which has several years worth of Squirt holding it together so I can justify replacing with a pre-cleaned YBN from InASpin, it seems more ecologically sound to get them to do it than for me to buy litres of various solvents etc.
Same goes for the gravel bike but I have a bottle of Fenwick's Stealth left to use up and only 500km on the chain so that's probably one for next year at this rate.
Depends, a DFF will heat up to close to 200C
Not if you turn the knob on the front.
I say don’t cut corners, waxing has to be done right
I disagree. All I do is remove chain and dunk, and I get great results. Waffling on about the perfect long winded process is unhelpful as it puts people off, and they won't get the benefits.
I'm sure going to obsessive lengths gives you a few extra watts, but that's not why I do it. I want to have a chain that actually resists mud and grit, and I want the minimum possible faff at the same time. Chain wax (well, Putoline at least) does that very well.
you’d be crazy not to do the initial clean right, because the wax has to bond to the metal, it can’t do that with any residue in there which means it won’t work right, if you don’t clean right and it doesn’t bond then you may aswell not bother with immersive wax IMO
No, in my experience it still works pretty well. The hot wax presumably dissolves the grease on the chain.
3 or more baths (5 for a new SRAM chain)
In my view this is crazy. There's not much grease that can survive a single dunking in white spirit, what the heck do you think it comes coated in that needs five de-greasing sessions? Especially when white spirit is oily anyway.
In my view this is crazy. There’s not much grease that can survive a single dunking in white spirit, what the heck do you think it comes coated in that needs five de-greasing sessions? Especially when white spirit is oily anyway.
I guess the rationale is that 1. The factory grease is hard to shift 2. You're aiming to remove the grease inside the rollers, not just on the outside 3. After using white spirit you rinse in IPA a couple of times to remove the residue from the white spirit.
I'm not looking for an endless argument btw, I'm just saying that's the rationale behind the white spirit/IPA chain cleaning regimen. Take it or leave it. If your method works for you, then that's great too.
Similarly folk have explained why it's arguably better for the wax to use a slow cooker than a deep fat fryer, but if it works for you then whoopy doo 🙂
Re chain checking - I don't bother with measuring devices, I just eyeball the cassette/chain interface. If you push on a pedal (with your hand is sufficient) whilst holding the wheel, you will see on a new chain that all the teeth on which the chain sits are in contact with their respective chain roller. As the chain wears, this number decreases. When you can only see five or so rollers/links actually in contact with teeth, then it's time for a new chain. You can use a number greater or less than five if you want, depending on your attitude to risk 🙂
I’m not looking for an endless argument btw, I’m just saying that’s the rationale behind the white spirit/IPA chain cleaning regimen. Take it or leave it. If your method works for you, then that’s great too.
Well, if the simple approach works, then logically there isn't a rationale for the extended faff, is there? 🙂
I would be interested to see if different preparation processes give better results, but in practice this is very hard to determine. I get quite different periods between waxings (not least because there's no universal definition of 'needs rewaxing', it's all subjective) even though I do the same thing each time usually. The waxing interval is long enough that the changing of weather patterns and/or seasons interferes with data which compounds the issue.
Well, if the simple approach works, then logically there isn’t a rationale for the extended faff, is there? 🙂
Down 🙂
I would be interested to see if different preparation processes give better results, but in practice this is very hard to determine.
The Zero Friction Cycling guys have compared all sorts of waxes, preparation techniques, chains, lubes etc etc in an exhaustive way using a lab-based test rig. Obviously their results won't be as valid as yours in the sense of your set-up in real life use and I don't think they've tried Putoline, which has the TJ seal of godliness, but that's what they do.
Sorry I’ve just jumped in at the end of the thread. But what’s wrong with heating up a load of tea lights in a saucepan, and putting in your chain? Costs next to nowt and mine’s been good for ages.
I think paraffin wax as used in tea lights is quite hard and may well flake off. But I haven't tried it. Waxes designed for the purpose are a bit softer and stickier.
Yea, I'm with molgrips on this one, there's no real world need to be THAT level of clean about it. Putoline at least, seems to just work well with minimal faff and lasts several (generally) wet rides without needing any maintenance. Last Friday I did one ride that had the bike over the chainring in fords, then rode 100km off-road (plus another 30 on road) on Sunday. The chain still looks and sounds perfect.
Maybe with 10x the faff you can save one or two watts, but really what's the point?
Ceramic Speed UFO Clean
35 quid a throw, and thats just to clean it, then comes the lube, and no doubt equally expensive.
Dump the entire chain in a plastic coke bottle with inexpensive meths in it. Give it a damn good shaking and cleanings done.
All these extreme methods, its like people think they're entering the Olympics or the Tour De France 😕
I think soil geology and chemistry has a big impact on longevity. ZFC's test protocol says:
500ml of water is sprayed onto chain from small pressure sprayer, as well as the
5grams of sandy loam.
I think that may well not cover all the situations we are likely to find when out on our MTBs.
35 quid a throw, and thats just to clean it,
I think if you shop around you can get it for £25 but yeah expensive, they do say a litre will do the factory grease on 50 chains minimum I seem to recall.
I think that may well not cover all the situations we are likely to find when out on our MTBs.
Which is pretty much what I said. Tbf they seem more focussed on road/gravel than mountain biking.
For sure an hour each time you wax the chain (which is very often using MSW I am discovering) is going to be a right faff in the winter when it's bastard cold in my shed. I'm thinking that running Putoline in the winter is going to be my best bet or put the MSW in the DFF. I mean if you have to do it again virtually every ride anyway what does it matter if you damage the wax a bit...🤷♂️
@daz does yours need doing as often as the MSW?
Also I think an ebike is more suited to Putoline. There's no mention of ebike testing on the ZFC website as far as I can see.. It's just the gunk with Putoline that I don't like - with MSW my drivetrain is spotless. I went on a 60km dusty gravel ride today and it all just rinsed off (probably means I need to rewax it now though....🙄🤣)
I went on a 60km dusty gravel ride today and it all just rinsed off (probably means I need to rewax it now though
Surely MSW doesn't just rinse off with a hose?
Surely MSW doesn’t just rinse off with a hose?
ZFC say it needs redoing every time it gets wet..... which I am assuming means washing also but they don't specify.... I've no intention of redoing it after every rinse.
I rinse my bike after every ride and I am finding that shifting gets noisier after about 200km. This is with the motor on though. It's quieter with the motor switched off which is why I am taking everything ZFC say with a pinch of salt at the moment and just seeing what works in the real world. My guess is that the noisier shifting is just because the wax has come off the outer plates and it's still working fine inside the rollers but surely if it's noisier it's wearing things out more....
Oceanskipper. I think ZFC mean if it gets wet whilst riding as that carries in contaminants.
I agree with you all that both the multi bath initial clean so the wax can properly Bond onto the chain and the boiling water wash / re wax after a wet ride seem tedious but as ZFC have done extensive wear testing to come up with those methods I’m happy to follow them.
I’m hoping my 2 chains last ages meaning that multi bath initial clean isn’t too onerous as it’s once in a blue moon.
I spent much more time cleaning with solvents in various chain scrubber devices when using Finish Line Century / Wet lube over the 35 years ago I’ve been mountainbiking. And I have a pile of worn cassettes (why do I keep them!!). Since I last moved home 25 years ago I’d amassed well over 40 chains awaiting a recycling solution. All gone now.
2 years in my 11s waxed chains show zero wear (measured when clean before rewaxing, Pedros guage).
A sram cassette is well expensive, even GX - so a bit of tedious cleaning to multiply its life is worth it to me. Got more time than cash these days.
