[Closed] cartridge bearings better than well maintained ball bearings?

yep, cos when loose ball bearings fall out over the garage floor...

No, they aren't any better.

Yes my view. better sealing and longer lasting. Would you want to go back to cup and cone BBs?

I have a mix of wheels and the cartridge ones all run smooth and last a long time, every time I check a cup and cone one its either rough or loose.

I think the key is 'well maintained'.

Shimano stick to cup'n'cone because they think it's a better solution engineeringly-wise for one, and like'em or loathe'em, they know they're bike stuff.

Personally I like the faff-free nature of cartridge bearings, plus they last ages (even in my non CK heaset Pete 😉 ) so they're not particularly 'throw away and buy knew'

Loose balls run as smooth and have less drag on the seal and are more adjustable/tuneable. The trick to this question was the mention of well maintained. I use king headsets, HTII bbs and hope hubs just because they're easier to live with. When the races die, the who thing goes rather than being left with a hub with knackered races.

All things being equal they're worse - having to have the extra bits of metal in the cartridge results in the balls being smaller than they might otherwise be.

Would you want to go back to cup and cone BBs?

You mean square taper ones? The sort which used to last for ever? Why on earth would you want to go back to that?

every time I check a cup and cone one its either rough or loose.

User error.

[i]You mean square taper ones? The sort which used to last for ever?[/i]

The square taper ones that lasted for ever were a cartridge unit. They may have had ball bearing inside, but they weren't servicable.

Old skool cup and cone BBs. Not cartridge square taper.

Not user error. I set the bearings up correctly. They will either take in muck and go gritty and tight / take in water and corrode and go notchy or wear to go loose over a period of time.

I can also change a set of cartridge bearings quicker should I need to.

My front hub is an 11 year old XT one and I think I've serviced it once. The loose-bearing BB on my commuter is about 30 years old and they are both fine, thank you.

Cup and cone is designed to take the slight lateral forces that wheels experience.

fella's, lets not argue about ****ing bearings, please.

I just checks a two year old XT hub. corroded bearings from the poor sealing, now will not adjust to be smooth and without play.

Cup and cone's fine, my Exages are cup-and-cone and are on (I think) their 4th set of balls, still going strong, and still spin far longer than my Pro 2s and DT240s. They go as long between services as any of my other hubs do, only difference is that the service is usually 10 minutes with some quality grease, rather than 10 minutes with some expensive new bearings.

Having said that, those are very good cup-and-cone hubs, the inferior Formula ones I had were a lot more hassle.

TandemJeremy - Member

I just checks a two year old XT hub. corroded bearings from the poor sealing, now will not adjust to be smooth and without play.

First time they've been serviced?

if you strip shimano cup and cone hubs when new, regrease them and set them up right they last a very long time. However, I run hopes on most bikes and they last very well too but they are noticeably more draggy than cup and cones set up perfectly.

Once again can I recommend Silkolen RG2 grease it is superb and very cheap in big tubs.

Old skool cup and cone BBs. Not cartridge square taper.

Cartridge ST [b]are[/b] cup and cone - and there's a reason for that.

Depends on the hub in my experience. XT M765 and M756 are straightforward to service and keep just right, more recent versions of xt rear hub have been harder to get right and get moaned about a lot on here. (TJ, is yours a more recent one?)
Deore M525 good, but the cheaper M475 needs more frequent attention in my experience (probably the less good sealing). I have just serviced a set of old xtr M965 centerlok hubs for a mate and I may as well not have bothered; balls, cups, cones and grease all in excellent condition.

I have had great logevity and service intervals with many shimano loose ball hubs BUT I couldn't get on with their 20mm ones which are also loose ball (in a plastic cage which you have to snap to remove and clean the insides 👿 -I would steer well clear of these hubs, having had two that grumbled within a pitifully short time from brand new, and then would tighten up or loosen off within a couple of rides no matter what I did to them. I know it's not me as I have had no trouble with their qr hubs and will continue to buy them.

@aracer

I think he meant cup and cone as in serviceable. As far as I remember, they were/are not serviceable. None of mine were anyway.

I run loose ball hubs-on my commuter I've drilled the hub body to accept an oil can spout ALA the old Campy road hubs and they havnt been touched for 2 years continual all year round use, my Ragley has an XT rear hub that I've tapped to accept an industrial style grease nipple that I clip a grease gun onto every few months and pump a bit of grease through, Never any bearing or freehub issues.

Details are in a previous post of mine somewhere

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/grease-nipple-xt-hubs

I guess I am the only one old enough to remember servicing cup and cone BBS with screw in cups and a lockring.

[img] [/img]

Oooooh, the issue sideways forces/loads on conventional cartridge bearings versus angular contact bearings (as found in shimano hubs and some old ST BB's) is another issue I haven't heard argued about on here for a while. Probably for another thread though!

[edit] TJ, I serviced a bb like that last year on a 1985 Raleigh Record Sprint, and once I'd cleaned off the thickest grease I have ever found on/in a bike, it was all well shiny and smooth. (far better than the helicomatic rear hub of similar vintage!)

I've generally one answer to this. And the answer is Yes. Cart bearings ARE ball bearings, with precisely the correct tolerances and adjustment dialed in at the factory, repeatably and easily replaced by the end user and ensuring both races can be replaced should damage occur. There's no more friction than a decent labyrinth seal on a normal cup n cone arrangement and it removes all user error from the process. THAT is an engineering solution. As mentioned above, the side forces are better dealt with by shimano style bearings but cart bearings allow the bearing to be placed further out in the hub and for larger bearings to be used if required.

Just no contest in my mind.

I guess I am the only one old enough to remember servicing cup and cone BBS with screw in cups and a lockring.

Nope. I still have all the tools, and somewhere I think I've probably got all the bits for one. Doesn't mean that cartridge ST BBs aren't also cup and cone - if you're going to suggest that cup and cone are inferior just because they're cup and cone, then you're going to have to explain the important functional distinction between those in a cartridge and those you can adjust. Neither have races you can replace which seems to be the main (only?) argument I can see against cup and cone.

cart bearings allow the bearing to be placed further out in the hub and for larger bearings to be used if required.

You're going to have to explain that one to me. What feature of cartridge bearings allows them to be put further out on the hub than cup and cone? For instance on a Shimano rear hub, the right hand cup/cone is pretty much as far out as it is possible to go, and significantly further out than most cartridge bearing hubs (or all - anybody got an example of a cartridge hub with the main hub bearing at the right end of the freewheel, as I can't think of one?) Meanwhile, how does the presence of extra bits of metal making up the races of the cartridge bearing - which have to also fit inside the space which might otherwise be used for balls - allow for larger bearings to be used?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't cup and cone bearings eventually wear the surfaces the balls run on leading to hub replacement, whereas with a cartridge the same (equivalent) surface is part of the replaceable cartridge.
I appreciate it will take a good amount of time.

igm - Member

I appreciate it will take a good amount of time.

Somewhere in excess of 21 years, for me.

With some hubs, you can knock out the inner race and replace- the only thing that can be fiddly is finding a suitable replacement. I've done this with an old Shimano one, no bother. Wee bit more faff than changing cartridge bearings though.

OK I reckon 21 years, effectively makes me wrong.

To be fair, they were top kit and have been very well looked after. Not sure I'd expect the same from modern ones.

And after 21 years are the races work-hardened?

Something to be said for servicing an xt hub at the cost of 10p. Set of bearings for the hope pro II is about £20 isn't it? - LBS did one for me one time and charged me rrp of £45 for them! (accept that's on me if I'm getting them to source them).

Cartridges are probably better for me as I'm not that concientious at keeping on top of the fettling. If you run a tight ship I reckon loose bearings are probably better overall - at least in hubs where the service is easy.

I thought to myself before clicking this, TJ will say cart bearings are great, PP will pop up saying cup and cone is best.
Clearly I've read too many of these threads on here. 🙂

TJ is right btw.

Although I do have one of those^ bb's on my old roadie and it's great. I can't imagine the horror of having one on a muddy wet mtb though...

I find cup and cone well set up will run smoother, quieter and with less friction than the equivalent cartridge bearing. However, they are a pain in the arse to get perfect.

There was a reason that Campag stayed with cup and cone for years, and Shimano still do!

I guess I am the only one old enough to remember servicing cup and cone BBS with screw in cups and a lockring.

I still have that BB on one of my bikes. The one with 27" wheels and Weinmann centre pull brakes which I use most days.

Unless you believe your as good as SKF FAG/INA with tolerances and build quality of bearings, then go with cartridge bearings.

You will be able to get cup and cone hubs to function, but getting them to the same degree of performance as a good set of hubs running top end cartridge bearings would be quite hard if not impossible for most modern [s]cheap shit[/s] brands.

I can't be bothered to fiddlearse around getting the lock ring and preload set perfectly therefore cartridge is better. 🙂

I've got cup and cone on 3 bikes (2 mountain and 1 road) and I have used Hope XC cartridge before. Generally I'd say cartridge is better just because the risk of stuff getting into cup and cone and destroying the cups. Serving c&c is easy but it's one of those jobs that's easily forgotton about / avoided and by the time you notice they are rough it's to late.
The drag argument against cartridge when off road is not really relevent compared to rolling resistance etc. On road I thought c&c were idea as sealing isn't and issue and that appears to be the case but having said that I have a pair of Pro-Lite Bracciano wheels whos cartridge bearing wheels spin for minutes.
However the biggest thing against c&c is not realy c%c but Shimano as their mtb freehubs are awful, I barely get a year of my little used XT one and as they are not serviceable it's a £30-£40 expense everytime as upposed to a few pounds for pawls and springs.

Unless you believe your as good as SKF FAG/INA with tolerances and build quality of bearings, then go with cartridge bearings.

Oh - I hadn't realised SKF will send somebody out to reset the tolerances of my cartridges when they start to wear - where do I apply for that? Actually, how do you adjust cartridge bearings when their fine tolerances disappear after a very short period of use on a MTB?

I regreased my 12 year old Shimano 105 front hub the other week. I do it every couple of years or so. SMOOTH. Dunno how many miles it's done, certainly more than 12,000.

aracer - IME cartidge bearing stay within tolerances IE no play for ages then fail quickly whereas cap and cone once they start to wear and develop play will never be right again no matter how carefully you adjust them.

Basically once any bearing wears enough to develop play its scrap unless yo are prepared to put up with less than optimal bearings

None of my cartridge bearing hubs are either rough or have freeplay detectable at the rim. NOne have had the bearings changed for a long time. two cup and cone bearings are rough and will not adjust to give no play and no roughness

Here's my take on this, based on ~7000 hours' work as a mechanic in 3 lbs.

The OP asked: [u]cartridge bearings better than well maintained ball bearings[/u]

No contest - well maintained shimano hubs should last forever bar the replacement of freehub bodies. An lx hub for £30 is only 50gm heavier than a pro but 1/4 the price. £3 for a cone or bearings, and £30 for an entire replacement hub including cup and freehub body (only the latter will need replacing if you properly maintain the hub). Compared with say £30 for the bearings in a pro 2, which can't be maintained?

Of course many have answered the un-asked question [u]cartridge bearings better than un-maintained ball bearings?[/u] and I now take some of their points in turn (TJ: PLEASE do not take this personally):

TandemJeremy - Member

Not user error. I set the bearings up correctly. They will either take in muck and go gritty and tight / take in water and corrode and go notchy or wear to go loose over a period of time.

I can also change a set of cartridge bearings quicker should I need to.

1. Sorry, you're not maintaining them frequently enough.
2. An experienced mech might change cartridge bearings more quickly than cup and con by a few minutes yes, but most maintenance for the latter IME is a quick squirt of grease.

igm - Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't cup and cone bearings eventually wear the surfaces the balls run on leading to hub replacement, whereas with a cartridge the same (equivalent) surface is part of the replaceable cartridge.

Yes - but the cups are replaceable with a little know how (sadly more than many lbs have, but identical procedure to replacing cartridge bearings, albeit you need a new cup from a new hub)

kaesae - Member
You will be able to get cup and cone hubs to function, but getting them to the same degree of performance as a good set of hubs running top end cartridge bearings would be quite hard if not impossible

So C+C will only "function"? What is this "performance" you are talking about? All I can think it could b is bearing friction - which is in either case is tiny compared to all the other losses on an mtb. Turn a cartridge bearing hub in your hand...my experience is there's more drag than a C+C hub.

TandemJeremy - Member
aracer - IME cartidge bearing stay within tolerances IE no play for ages then fail quickly whereas cap and cone once they start to wear and develop play will never be right again no matter how carefully you adjust them.

Basically once any bearing wears enough to develop play its scrap unless yo are prepared to put up with less than optimal bearings

None of my cartridge bearing hubs are either rough or have freeplay detectable at the rim. NOne have had the bearings changed for a long time. two cup and cone bearings are rough and will not adjust to give no play and no roughness

I've got 8 bikes and only 1 is on cartridge bearing hubs (road bike, to get light hubs), 2 of those hubs are 22 years old and all are in fine condition. I've trashed some in the past - usually an immersion followed by no maintenance. Mostly they get a check and a squirt of grease or a clean-out every wee while. This accords with my lbs experience. So if your C+C hubs are ****ed then AFAIAC it's down to your own lack of maintenance - you have to accept this varies with riders/use. I've also run rough C+C hubs smooth - it worked fine.

/THREAD CLOSED/ 😉

Cynic al - once a cup an cone wears it can never be 100% no matter how you adjust it, Wear is wear. These bearings have hardened surfaces

Anyone who claims as you did that a rough and pitted bearing will wear smooth shows your lack of mechanical sympathy.

TandemJeremy - Member
Cynic al - once a cup an cone wears it can never be 100% no matter how you adjust it, Wear is wear. These bearings have hardened surfaces

Anyone who claims as you did that a rough and pitted bearing will wear smooth shows your lack of mechanical sympathy.

I don't see how wear itself (rather than corrosion and pitting) has any effect - you adjust to compensate. However you barely see any significant wear - it's 99% corrosion and pitting....which I HAVE SEEN WITH MY OWN EYES wear smooth again.

Shame you have to make this personal and say I have "no mechanical sympathy" (whatever that means - and I did ask you not to get personal). For me the hub has to rotate in a reliable and low friction manner. I don't need the innards to stand up to microscopic inspection or have hermetically sealed hygiene - what on earth is the point in spending money on that? Just so you can say you have "mechanical sympathy"? Your "mechanically sympathetic" hubs are doing their job no better, you've just spent more money on them.

I guess I am the only one old enough to remember servicing cup and cone BBS with screw in cups and a lockring.

My Dawes Super Galaxy tandem has two such BBs. I serviced them at about 20 years. And needn't have bothered. They are soooo smooth, far better than the indestructible UN71s.

I also much prefer servicing cup and cone hubs. All you need is a decent set of cone spanners and a little mechanical sympathy.

My experience of any kind of ball-bearing bearing wear is that it isnt even, you get that rollercoaster effect. Why is that?

djaustin - no way on mtbs, they require too much servicing.

sugdenr I don't know what you mean...unless it's the cone wear you are talking about?

I guess I am the only one old enough to remember servicing cup and cone BBS with screw in cups and a lockring.

I had a similar bb on my first Rockhopper. I managed to strip the thread on my crank so I couldn't get at it to service it and I kept in running for a very long time by pouring oil down the seat tube.

A wheel built on an XTR hub will spin fantastically for a long time.
A wheel built on a DT240 will spin pretty well for a while
A wheel built on a Pro 2 will do a few revolutions and stop

What is the criteria for 'better'?

They roll better and smoother. They are heavier and there is potential to do more catastrophic damage. Yes you can replace cups from a donor hub, but if you do that on an XTR hub (or need to do it on some Dura Ace wheels as a friend did) then that's a lot more expensive than some cartridge bearings.

Cartridge bearing are idiot proof, generally less maintanence, lighter, but don't roll as well.

On balance I'd choose cartridge bearing, but wouldn't shy away from decent cup and cone at all.

I have spent most of this week seriving peoples rough and losse hubs. New balls of grade 25 or better, good quality grease such as rock n rolls super web or similiar and they run smooth again. Some customers just do not reliase how bad they have become. However any pitting on the cones means they must be replaced. Any pitting on the hub means a new hub but hubs only pit/brinel if poor quality bearing are used or they are left to run dry and riden. Weldite bearings for example are grade 1000 I believe, utterly pointless in an engineering application.

I have cartidge bearings in my hope hubs and loose ball in my shimano hubs. Boths run smoothly. When I service even cheap hubs they all run smooth by the time I am finished with them, the more expensives one can be made super smooth. I like them.

Any pitting on the hub means a new hub

Not necessarily true - you can knock the cone out of a donor hub and press it into an old one. Shimano say you can't, but you can. Dunno about other brands of hub.

I think njee20 as summed my feeling up on this debate. Cup and cone bearings roll a lot better on the bike, I have had 20 or more sets of wheels mainly with Hope hubs. XC, Bulb the newer Pro2 and DT swiss hubs too. Some cheaper brands DMR revolvers, On One----

I have also had maybe the same amount of wheels with cup and cones over the years.

Wheels with cup and cones spin better just try it on the bike. When they are set up correctly with the cones adjusted to perfection and not too much grease in them, they will spin forever a day. This as got to equate to less drag than cartridge bearings! All my cartridge bearing wheels have never spun as free as the cup and cone ones, by quite some way in the case of some of the hubs. Hope hubs seem to have more drag than any other I have used especially the older XC models.

You can't get away from the fact Shimano wheels have terrible freehub bodys, which should be taken into account with this argument! They don't last a year with me riding them in mud 17 stone rider. They are expensive and Shimano are always making subtle changes and you will not be able to get them after a few years due to this. You cant service them too unlike Hope or other cartridge bearing hubs.

Shimano Hubs are heavier in the mid range Deore, SLX and XT. The newer lighter XT M775 hubs are lighter than there predecessors but are really fiddly to set up and freehubs on those are even worse than any other Shimano hub ever made!

Hope freehubs last for ages and can be made to run like new with a set of springs and pawls and two cartridge bearings. I know people running them for 12 years and they can still get spares easy enough and cheaply. Try that with Shimano, axles, freehubs cones etc

So there is a bigger picture to look at than is cup and cone better than cartridge bearings.

Basically they are better, but not being able to change the races without buying new hubs to knock them out, crap freehubs and heavy weight, sealing not as good for heavy muddy riding and lack of longevity for spares. That will always make me buy a more draggy Hope hub over the Shimano!

I'm not really adding anything to this discussion but I knackered the cup and cone bearings in my rear Formula hub through lack of maintenance and probably though over enthusiastic cleaning even though a pressure washer wasn't used. I know this was my fault, even though the hubs were low quality, but when I replaced it I decided to get a cartridge bearing hub so that it wouldn't be difficult to replace them in case I was stupid enough not to look after C&C bearings again.

I know C&C are better if they are good quality and welmaintaineded but I personally prefer cartridge bearings so they can be easily replaced if/when I don't look after them.

Doesn't the argument that all bearings are created equally have something to do with it
And a lot of the time things for bikes are designed to fit not designed to suit the loadings
Cup and cone allows the same conditions to roughly be catered for as angular contact bearings a cartridge has a set clearance shit bearings and shit fits and shit sizing equals shit bearing life