[Closed] Building a MTB trail

A section with no pedaling and no braking.

For an hour.

Most of what you described cannot be made. You have to find the location that fits that bill. If you are looking for the right location why does it have to be called a trail center?

Admitadly most good places to ride in the UK have Trail centers cited on them.

Not sure what my point is.

What would i like. somewhere you can get to on the train or bus. I hate having to drive to ride at places.

Most of what you described cannot be made

Soma-rich - I'm talking in an ideal world, not actually about building something. Although I've ridden purpose built trails with the aspects I've mentioned - well all except for the last one as the trails I'm thinking of were in NZ.

I am just curious to understand what people would want from a purpose built trail as I don't understand why there is general dislike for them. I've ridden some trail centres which are loads better than my local trails and vice versa.

This is just up the road from me. Built with volunteer labour, council funded, 3 km climb, 5 minute descent all within a loop, three downhill trails of varied skill levels. Nice. Here is a video sample of two of the descents.

[url]

cannock comes close on the no pedaling/braking front, with the exception of the 2 short climbs to get some elevation back theres nothing more than half crank turns or a quick dab for the last 3 sections. And the new climb rocks.

the new section -Some good climbs (technical)
its mostly level -Followed by some level bits to get my breath back
berm-tastic -Followed by some technical / non technical descents
never been to it but its there -Have to have a cafe / burger van at the end
maybe not, just woods, and clearfelled woods -Great views for some obligatory photo ops
theres the secret bits apparently -Optional loop for some hardcore riding (either climbs or super technical descents)
cant be much more local to most of the population, compared to wales and scotland, -Be on my doorstep

All its missing are some nice flowing tabletops, the kind that take a little effort to jump properly, but dont kill you if you come up short. Preferably progressing from about 2ft by 5ft with long landings designed to be taken fast and probably overjumped, to similar sized ones that you have to aim for the landings. Then upto some propper ones, but still with humped tops to make them ridable without crashing.

And why is there a fireroad decent after section 13? Come on!

As for the best trail center, im not telling you, but spending a weekend in the summer raking out some singletrack in the local woods is time well spent.

Soma-rich - I'm talking in an ideal world

Like one where you could ride ANY trail then

An uplift service that only takes 60 seconds to get you to the top followed by a 10 mile awesome descent that takes you back to the uplift service.

I don't want much

naked nubile young women waving at me from the side of the trail

smoke nailed it in one! 🙂 🙂

-Be on my doorstep

I'd second that one, definitely. Nothing like being able to go for a ride from your front door.

I'd say stuff that you wouldn't get on a non-MTB trail. So, all weather design and surfacing, built features like berms, drop-offs, wooden bits and jumps, just a bit of novelty or inventiveness really. All crammed in at a much higher density than your average English "natural" trail.

[i]So, all weather design and surfacing, built features like berms, drop-offs, wooden bits and jumps, just a bit of novelty or inventiveness really. All crammed in at a much higher density than your average English "natural" trail. [/i]

That exactly sums up what I don't like about trail centres. They feel 'fake'.

Instead of worrying about whether what you're riding over is "real" or "fake" why not just enjoy it? Just a suggestion, like. 😉

I don't enjoy it, because it feels fake.

This could be the start of a long and fruitful discussion. Or not. 🙄

I can't really explain why I don't like them, I just don't. Your list neatly summed it up in a way I hadn't before.

Similarly, I don't like reggae. Again I don't really know why, but I'm not just going to listen to it and enjoy it am I?

And smilies are the crutch of those who cannnot express themselves properly in written English.

😉

😆 😀 🙂 😐 🙁 😡 😥 😈

Lets help them out then IHN. Use the above "smilie scale" to describe trail centers.

Well it would have to be Whistler, minus Americans. Job done.

I think the problem with trail centres is that they can be very formulaic, and are liked by people whom some mountain bikers find annoying in their enthusiasm for something that they consider pedestrian. So the reggae metaphor is quite apt, really.

sofatester - the one fourth from the left beautifully sums up my indifference.

open with a long shallow climb for a km or so, as a nice warm up.
W
ho gives a toss if they feel fake? you know you can cane it around a blind corner without running into a horse (just be aware of dogs and crashed bikes)
that and the bike dosent need cleaning when you get home.

sure i wouldnt want to ride it everyday, but mandmade flowing rolling pumpable singletrack can be the best riding too.

horses for courses

i want to live somewhere where i can dig my own trail, wales backing onto woodland kind of idea

Nettles - This is the reason for putting the post up - to try to understand the grey area between purpose built and not. Surely there is a point where a purpose built trail can be enjoyed by someone who traditionally does not like riding these so called "fake trails"

Effectively what would make you enjoy a purpose built trail (not necessarily a trail centre)

I've never quite understood it but want to, as to me riding a bike is still riding a bike whether on road, hardpark, rock, chalk, roots, wood or metal.

Bushwacked
I've never quite understood it but want to, as to me riding a bike is still riding a bike whether on road, hardpark, rock, chalk, roots, wood or metal.

Surely you undertand that a steep rooty rocky descent is totally different from a road ride? It requires a totally unique skill set and the feeling of reward once mastered is much greater than say blasting down a fire road.

My ideal trail would be one that has no dog poo and a retractable roof for when it rains

Of course that is impossible we are never going to get rid of the dog poo

I remember catching a dog walker on Penmachno letting his Bitch crimp one out on a hairpin corner. Right on the Apex FFS!

Tried to say it was the "dog walker further up the trail" 👿

Sausages laced with immodium, placed around the loop should do the trick!

GNATGNAT - Of course I do, but the point I was trying to make is that the surface is immaterial as it is all about riding irrespective of the surface - just get out and have fun.

Everyone has their own level and as long as people are enjoying themselves and maybe even pushing their limits then its all good.

However, I know what you are saying as cornering on a roadbike at speed can be much harder than riding some rocky descents on a full Sus!!!

They feel 'fake'.

What an odd thing to say.

Seeking out the supposed 'authenticity' of things is a strange passtime, surely. Are you some kind of fixie riding fakenger, always looking for the most 'real' experience?

Boring, maybe. Crowded, often. Unadventurous, sure. Fake, eh?

Open your mind and look again at life, I would.

Bushwacked -
GNATGNAT - Of course I do, but the point I was trying to make is that the surface is immaterial as it is all about riding irrespective of the surface - just get out and have fun.

Everyone has their own level and as long as people are enjoying themselves and maybe even pushing their limits then its all good.

However, I know what you are saying as cornering on a roadbike at speed can be much harder than riding some rocky descents on a full Sus!!!

Im sorry Bum**** but you're talking out yer hole.

No I'm not and no need to call me that! Why get personal??

Bushwacked
No I'm not and no need to call me that! Why get personal??

If you resort to misspelling my username for mildly derogatory comic effect then I'll do likewise. And you are talking out yer hole. You've started a thread about the ideal elements of a trail or trail centre then say that the surface, type of bike and style of riding is completely irrelevant to enjoyment. Nonsense.

Molgrips - exactly - its all riding whether it is man made or not. Surely it can be enjoyed in the same way and I'd like to think that man made stuff can actually be more testing of skill but also can be designed to take in some breathtaking views.

So it really comes down to the thought that it was put there for the purpose of riding rather than horseriding or walking (both the other two "purpose built" types of trails we frequent) which stops people enjoying them

So back to my question - what would make purpose built trails the best trails to ride for those who don't like purpose built cycling trails?

GG - You are missing my point - people who ride bikes get enjoyment out of riding those bikes irrespective of the sruface - its all about the riding. Now I personally prefer rocky rooty technical riding and skateparks but I know others who prefer scenic XC rides coupled with some road riding - but when we talk about riding we can all share the enjoyment we get from riding on two wheels - irrespective of surface. I know as long as I get out on a bike even if its not on my surface of preference I am happy.

What surface is best is down to personal choice.

The original reason for the post was really to understand how people who enjoy riding off road on similar surfaces to those at purpose built venues don't enjoy those purpose built venues and what it would take to get those people seeing the purpose built trails in a different light.

[i]Are you some kind of fixie riding fakenger, always looking for the most 'real' experience?[/i]

I'm really, really not.

Maybe fake is the wrong word. Maybe 'contrived' is a better word. I like riding on roads, towpaths, rocky stuff, grassy stuff, woodsy stuff, lots of stuff. I just like riding it on stuff that was there already, rather than stuff that has been purpose built for me to ride on (and yes I know that roads and towpaths are purpose built...)

[i]Open your mind and look again at life, I would. [/i]

I shan't dignify that with a response.

Nettles - LOL!!

Wall rides are ace too. There need to be more of them.

GNARGNAR - Member

Well it would have to be Whistler, minus Americans. Job done.

And Australians.....and hundreds of people riding in pyjamas...

Maybe Gargamel though.

Endless, [i]endless[/i] miles of singletrack, through dense woodland.

Some kind of bothy, with chan marshall in it, playing guitar.

Trail centers have a purpose...people can chat on forums before and after riding, knowing that they will all share the same trail/line...and can compare experiances etc......

Whistler has 2 examples of trail centers... well.. areas of riding that are purpose built for riding.

The bike park is a phenomenal example of how to purpose build trail for bike riding and a good example of one that some people love, some people hate. Simply put though, if thats what you are looking for, theres nothing better.

If, i'm sure like most of you here, prefer to pedal and earn your ride, then the cross country trail network is possibly the perfect example of a trail centre. Every trail is accessible by riding to it from your doorstep, everything has been maintained with a view to bikes being ridden along them (I hesitate from using built as many of the trails were existing hiking, hunting and logging access trails that have been purpose adapted, not purpose built) and pretty much everything has a natural feel and has been maintained in a way that keeps the essence of riding pure.
Of course there are trails that have been purpose built. Many lovingly built by hand as well as those that make use of machine based construction and copious amounts of pea gravel. These machine built trails still serve a purpose and do have a welcome place in the Whistler trail inventory as areas that help to encourage people into mountain biking.

Anyway, love them or hate them, I believe trail centers are an important and integral part of riding culture although it'll probably be a long long time before the UK sees a trail center that gets close to the 250+kms of XC riding that Whistler has on offer. I for one hope that it does happen.

One thing that Whistler is missing, is a high alpine XC trail - So, thats what I would build if I could.
Give it a couple of years and we will see high alpine XC riding with lift support in Whistler.

Gonna have to get my butt to Whistler sometime before I pop my clogs.

get yourself to bc,canada!

There's some issues with parks in the Whistler alpine. Once you start heading out around Singing Pass you're in a protected wilderness zone, and they're pretty restrictive about the kinds of activities you can do out there.

smoke - Member

There's some issues with parks in the Whistler alpine. Once you start heading out around Singing Pass you're in a protected wilderness zone, and they're pretty restrictive about the kinds of activities you can do out there.

Absolutely, other options include heading out over towards the Cheakamus side.. or over Blackcomb way... Peak to Peak is intended to increase summer visits and I'm pretty sure we'll see the bike park activities develop on the Blackcomb side in the next few years.
Whistler Blackcomb have already guided Khybers on XC bikes... so that kind of riding is on the radar.

Do you guys in Canada have the same issues with people shunning trail centres as they are purpose built??

ah wow cove-transition-genesis like the you tube video! 🙂

IHN:

Maybe 'contrived' is a better word.

Hmm.. so you get on your bike, ride around in a big circle back to where you started, on man-made trails (they are all man made of course) and you are worried about things being contrived?

It just seems like a really strange reason for not liking trail centres, and further to that it seems that you are bringing preconceived ideas to the trail centres and letting that cloud your experience of the actual trails. But I could be wrong 🙂

When I rode the original Karrimor trail all I thought was 'what brilliant singletrack'. It all looks a bit old now tho.

So back to my question - what would make purpose built trails the best trails to ride for those who don't like purpose built cycling trails?

Well, I'd like to see all round black XC trails - some more technical stuff like the climb at Cwmcarn with some harder downhill bits interspersed - maybe like the Whyte's black or like the top section of DH course at Cwmcarn. Then there could be red trails like the current Whyte's, Penhydd etc for a change or for less experienced riders - that could include swoopy fast stuff like Brechfa. There should also be blue/green trails like Brechfa - easy for beginners but still interesting, and still brilliant fun for experienced riders to ride dead fast.

There should also be at least one downhill run with a chairlift, and a rideable climb back to the top or to various points along it.

In addition, all these trails should interlink and overlap so that you can mix and match sections as you like. There also needs to be signposts or waymarks on some of the natural trails in the area, of which there should be plenty over a large area - like that waymarked route in the Beacons.

Oh and a jump park too.

Interlinking trails would be awesome so you can make up your own using different sections of the trails - endless fun.

The trails out in New Zealand have this in abundance and I could have spent weeks exploring them all and deciding on my favorite route. The places that stick in my mind were Rotorua, Woodhills and Wanaka, the latter was a tiny place but loads of trails packed in. Bit like loads of sections of Cannock all linking up.

[url= http://www.bikepark.co.nz/trail_map.pdf ]Here's a link to the Woodhills map to give you an idea (Clicky)[/url]

[url] [/url]

Here's Rotorua's

Jeez, mucho trails. That first map looks like an early Jackson Pollock..

Bushwacked - Member

Do you guys in Canada have the same issues with people shunning trail centres as they are purpose built??

Well, not exactly. We don't have "trail centers" in the sense that you're referring to. We have bike parks, like Whistler and Silverstar. Lift serviced downhill trails. They're fun, but they're not exatly the same as the "off-piste" trails. You don't go to the parks to ride XC either, so there's no purpose built stuff like you're referring to. We're building trails for specifically for bikes, but consider the topography we get to play with.

It's a bit different when you can access 5000' of vertical behind a winery, and with so much crown land around there's not the same kind of issues as in the UK where almost everything is private.

Generally speaking, I much prefer the non-park riding. The trails tend to be nicer, as they're not ridden on so much and they just stay in better condition. But certain things can only be done at bike parks, so I ride those a few times a year as well. I'm spoiled, though. I've got literally thousands of km of singletrack within 4 hours, and 2 major bike parks withing daytrip distance. Another one is due to come online within a few years, and Whistler is only 5 hours away.

Smoke - it sounds too perfect to be true - I'm off to bed to dream of the world you live in!!! 😉

The other point to make about MTB specific trails in BC is that they are not built to the lowest common denominator like they often can be in the UK. I've ridden 'XC' trails around Whistler that are harder than any DH race track that I've been on in the UK. These are official WORCA sanctioned trails that are mapped and signed, not cheeky trails. Even the easiest trails on Mt Fromme up the road from where I work are at least as hard as anything in dumbed down era Coed Y Brenin. This is a key reason why BC 'trail centres' or areas with MTB specific trails are respected, not scoffed at and why many Canadians are so damned good on a bike.

GT Black wouldn't be too far away from my ideal trail - Nice length, great scenery, beautifully balanced in terms of different trail types. It just lacks a bit of technical stuff on the ups and downs. A class trail has to have at least one climb and one descent that you don't make all the time, where it feels great to ride it clean. This could probably be done for the climbs at GT, say make 1 or 2 sections of the radio mast climb a lot rockier (sure this would be very popular :)). The descents are what they are I guess, difficult to make the boundary trail very interesting short of a total re-reroute.

What bushwhacked said about interlinking trails.
I've been on a few road trips up to Rotorua and there is so much scope for linking different trails together depending on your mood/bike.

As for Wanaka, Sticky Forest has quite possibly the worst trail map I've ever seen in my life. Good riding but without a local guide it sucks.

Cove-transition-genesis, not seen that vid of the Wainui trails before but I know them well. Makara, Wrights Hill, Polmont and Mt Vic are all a lot closer to me but I often end up driving the extra KM's out and doing a few loops. Occasionly with a couple of loops of Danzig/The Slide in Belmont after.

Yeah - the Wanaka map sucks - I was given some advice on trails to look out for but there was so much to explore - wish the FC built or allowed trails to be built in the same way over here...

I'll take a real beast of a climb,technichal, physically tiring, and just a complete bitch. Maybe an hour and a half or so with the odd bit of flat to rest on. Then when i get to the top i'd like to find one of those new trek session 88's. Then from there, a really technichal, steep, route back down. ANd can i have some big drops please? Something along the lines of the CHampery Dh course

As to whether i could ride the above, I'm not sure...

is it just me that thinks soem traisl can be too technical? Take the beast for example, unless you've got a death with it's a slow plod allong down to the bottom (or an off the brakes run up followed by shittting yourself). Where'as stanage plantation run and blaka moor are much more fun as off the brakes for as long as you dare kind of rides.

ohh, and corners that reward you for good technique, not just berms followed by imediately by a downhill slope for numpties to regain their speed on.

ideal trail center should be rideable off the brakes, on a singlespeed (in other words, a giant 50 mile pump track would be nice 🙂 )

Sometimes I like the kind of scailectric biking you get at places like Afan, but i think in general, i enjoy tecnichal stuff more. Its still great fun... The beast is a good track, but I wouldn't say its really technichal... Unless you tried to climb it.

thisisnotaspoon -

ideal trail center should be rideable off the brakes, on a singlespeed (in other words, a giant 50 mile pump track would be nice )

Dear God no. That is exactly what a trail centre should not be, if you want that, go on a rollercoaster.

What walleater says is 100% on the money. Somewhere like whistler (although almost impossible in the uk on that scale) is the perfect "trail centre". People who've never been have this misconception that it's all just like A-line, the reality is it has every level and style of riding you could possibly wish for. There are huge "natural" dh trails in whistler that are some of the best, most technical and difficult you're likely to find. You rarely see them in videos because they arent photogenic and dont appeal to "trail park" riders.

This is why the more I think about it the more I think interlinking trails are the way forward.

Imagine a number of trails - take all the trail centre trails in the UK - running down the same hill roughly in parallel and broken into sections, so you can pick and choose which sections you want to ride. (obviously not necessarily cutting across each other at the fast points but at points where speed / chance of collisions is less). So you start on section 26 and at the end of that section you could go onto Sections 15, 32 or 8 for example depending on what you wanted to do and your skill level.

So some days you want something which is gentle and flowing and maybe something for the beginners (or for a hangover), other days something quick, other days something with a bit of northshore or jumps and other days something seriously crazy for the big bikes or you may just want to mix it all up...

It would be awesome - something for everyone and almost endless options for creating the kind of ride you want to do that day... I bet it could be easily done in places like the current trail centres - just need to start putting in some trails running kinda parallel.

Interesting about the "Lowest common denominator" remark. Check this out:

[url= http://www.whistler.ca/images/stories/PDF/Resort%20Experience/Cycling_Committee/trail_standards_first_edition.pdf ]Whistler Trail Standards[/url]

That's a legal document that covers trail building standards that is being adopted worldwide as the way to do it. It's excellent, and it lets you build pretty much anything.

Even stuff that Jedi likes.

Interlinked trail systems are the natural way to go, but they work better in areas with more vertical. It's more difficult to make them functional in flatter areas, as you get so many variables with peoples skill vs fitness that you get more limitations on where you can put the various options. What we see more of is optional difficult sections and "TTF's" on trails that will keep the more technically minded riders amused while still giving an easy out for less skilled. It's all in that link.

from the self confessed warped view of whistler that whistler diaries gives, that was what i was trying to describe! Anyway, whats wrong with a rollercoaster? Pesonaly i like the fact theres only a few corners at canock that need any brakeing, and im aiming to get them sorted into the brakeless cateory this weekend!

Personaly I cant wait for innerleithen to get its chairlift, just hope it gets used to the best potential with whistler style trails for everyone, includig a World level DH track, some national tracks, some local tracks, some smooth tracks, smooth tracks with jumps, smooth tracks without jumps, jumpy tracks with no smooth, the list goes on......

thisisnotaspoon - Member
from the self confessed warped view of whistler that whistler diaries gives, that was what i was trying to describe! Anyway, whats wrong with a rollercoaster? Pesonaly i like the fact theres only a few corners at canock that need any brakeing, and im aiming to get them sorted into the brakeless cateory this weekend!

There is nothing "wrong" with smooth flowy trails, but I strongly favour a natural, more technical style of trail as I find them more of a challenge and more rewarding. I'll take Champery dh track over a line because I'll feel a greater sense of achievement having overcome a greater challenge.

If we are talking about building trails then obviously I'd prefer that new imaginary trails would cater to my tastes, anyone would. Smooth flowy trails are all well and good for a momentary diversion but I dont think any trail centre should be predominately man made rollercoaster style trails as they actually get away from my idea of what mtbing is about.

Oh and tut tut to you for believing anything in whistler diaries.

Not all trail centres are smooth flow. Cwmcarn isn't, at least not for much of it - now that it's eroded in nicely and is good and rocky. I'd like more Cwmcarn-like trails at say Afan.

The Whistler trail standards are superb although its worth noting that as soon as these standards are applied to trails on private land - they're not worth much as private land owners are still quite nervous about the inherent risks of liability associated with TTF's. This is probably a major reason that the UK doesn't see a higher level of technicality at all trail centers. Not because its too expensive to build natural trail, but because its potentially more likely to lead to legal issues.
Ultimately I'd imagine that machine built trail is more expensive to build than a well built natural trail.
Chris Markle (of Comfortably Numb fame) spend months building some superb woodwork in a new development in Whistler under the employment of the developer, only be told to take it down as the developer was concerned about the potential risk on their land. These features were all built to the trail standards.

Another great thing about Whistlers bike club is that now that trails are becoming legally recognised, WORCA can operate in a no net loss method whereby if a land developer intends to remove existing trail they have to rebuild (re-route) trail to a higher standard and in more quantity.

Also worth pointing out is that existing trail that fail to meet the trail standards guidelines are being brought up to standard, re-routed or in cases - decommissioned.

Theres certainly a lot to be learned from Whistler and many other BC riding communities too. Theres also still lots for Whistler to learn.