[Closed] Loan Bike Returned Damaged - Did It Need Saying Beforehand?

I don't have his telephone number.
The bike doesn't get raced and it hasn't been loaned to race on. I wouldn't have let it go if it had. I'll not let it go again. You try to do a nice thing.
Much like the previous comment, I assumed it didn't need saying. In fact, I so assumed it, I didn't even think of it.

Are you pissed off that the bloke might not pay or just that the bike has been damaged at all?

If one of your colleagues took your road bike on loan for a week,

I only lend things to very good mates who understand the terms break it you bought it.

I am borrowing canoe gear from my boss this week - I offered that it was 'I break, i replace' when I asked.

I am lending one of my canoes to other folk on the river trip - again, the conversation included a 'you break it, you buy me another'.

Lender AND loaner be aware.

Both (if it comes to that). For both of us. Accidents happen. I get that. It's what happens next that will make the difference. My whole point was though, is it not taken for granted, not needed to be said that an item is returned in as good as condition as it was taken? I didn't even think to clarify it.

cyclepathologist - Member

My whole point was though, is it not taken for granted, not needed to be said that an item is returned in as good as condition as it was taken?

Not really though. It comes down to reasonable/fair usage and what you consider to be reasonable. To me, this is on the edge of that, but everyday use of a bike does include the risk of damage. If you borrowed my ming vase and broke it playing beer pong, I'd be raging, because it's not for beer pong. But if you borrow my bike and break it by riding it, that's what it's for, and I'd have considered that before ever lending it. If he broke it being careless- put it on a roofrack and drove into a height bar, or something- that'd be different again.

And that's why it's important to make sure both parties are on the same page. If I borrow a mate's bike, I'd personally expect to return it in the same condition, but I don't think that's a given; if I loan a bike and I expect it back in the same condition I will say so. But frankly, I wouldn't generally loan a bike under that condition- I'll loan things I don't mind getting scratched, I won't loan things that I do generally.

Just the fact that there's various conflicting opinions here probably tells the story clearly enough tbh

cyclepathologist - Member
My whole point was though, is it not taken for granted, not needed to be said that an item is returned in as good as condition as it was taken?

Once you've seen and discussed the bike with him I'm sure it will be fine.
You seem to like to blow hot air about this without any substance thus far.
Bloody speak to him and make sure you get it back in the nick he got it.
Don't keep going on and on about an outcome you are yet to have.

[quote=Northwind ]Just the fact that there's various conflicting opinions here probably tells the story clearly enough tbh

Who on here is suggesting that they would consider it reasonable to hand back a broken bike?

Though personally I'd consider crashing a bike and breaking it just as careless as driving into something with it on a roofrack - riding a bike is appropriate use, crashing one isn't. It breaking due to normal wear and tear JRA is a different matter, but that's not what we're talking here.

aracer - Member

riding a bike is appropriate use, crashing one isn't

I really struggle with this tbh. It's part and parcel of riding bikes.

Maybe, but if you crash a bike and break it you pay to get it fixed - that's part and parcel of it too. That's you the person crashing the bike. Seems pretty simple to me - I struggle to see how any other position can be justified.

As I wrote earlier, a very fundamental principle of a loan is that you give back what you were loaned.

We don't even know if there's anything to fix! OP talked about cosmetics and "possibly" the shifter. But then, this thread is mostly about assumptions isn't it.

It doesn't seem unreasonable for the OP to clarify what would be a reasonable position to take in advance of seeing the bike though, rather than having to react on the spot. If it's not damaged, then good.

But if you ride your own bike and break it, then you have to fix it in order to ride it again. You don't just leave it broken. If breaking a bike is part and parcel of riding it, then so is fixing it. That is why I would expect a loaned bike to be returned in the same shape as it was when it was lent.

flap_jack - Member
@jamj1974 I so wish you were right. Maybe I'm in the wrong industry.

You're not in the wrong industry chap. There are plenty of arseholes who do use people! You just don't have to be an arsehole because you are a manager.

"Once you've seen and discussed the bike with him I'm sure it will be fine.
You seem to like to blow hot air about this without any substance thus far.
Bloody speak to him and make sure you get it back in the nick he got it.
Don't keep going on and on about an outcome you are yet to have."

For the second time in this discussion (and you do rather seem to make quite a habit of it on this forum) you appear to be taking quite an aggressive stance. I suggest you seriously calm yourself down. Far from blowing hot air without any substance, it has been pretty conclusively established that some damage has been incurred. Furthermore, my quenstion to the forum was: Is it widely taken for granted that an item borrowed is returned in as good a condition as it was taken, even if this means costs are incurred for repair or replacement by the borrower or does it need to be agreed beforehand?

My absolute assumption was that it is unsaid. Clearly, a large portion either feel it should be said for clarity while others feel that it is either not the case at all, is dependant on the item and its use or have/had the same assumption as me. Then there is you, 'Iolo, wading in with your usual inflammatory, dismissive comments.

I have certainly learnt a valuable lesson from the constructive comments here and I am grateful for them. I will be sure to seek clarity and agree expectations in this and related matters should the situation arise in the future.

[i]"I really struggle with this tbh. It's part and parcel of riding bikes.[/i]"

This is a road bike. Crashing is not part and parcel of anything.

Even off-road, crashing [i]might[/i] be part and parcel of riding [i]one's own[/i] bike (for me it's not, but I know that doesn't apply to everyone; but then you can usually tell those people because if you were to borrow their bike it'd be pretty beaten up already) but it's [i]not[/i] part and parcel of borrowing other people's stuff unless, before you actually walk off into the sunset with it, you pipe up with "by the way, I'm planning on ragging the tits off this; you don't mind, do you?" Yes I do: give me my bike back, you bloody lunatic.

Firmly on the "hand it back at least as good as it was before" side of the fence here.

Give the man a phone call, just clarifying that you'll expect any damage to be fixed before it's returned. The he will know beore you see it - it m ight take an extra few days until you see it, though/

As noted earlier, I sadly don't have his telephone number. We'll have a chat when I collect it tomorrow. See how it goes. Accidents happen but how we resolve the situation is the key.

I have to say Im an old fashioned type and like to believe people have a similar morality to myself.

Most of the time Im glad to say that Ive not been let down but there have been occasions.

I say the above as Im like the OP to be honest. If I were to borrow something (anything) from someone it would be under my own terms and conditions as much as their own. I mean to say, if I borrowed something and I damaged/ lost it I would be straight on the phone to the person expressing my genuine regret and letting them know I would resolve the problem ASAP at my cost and time.

I suppose the key is to only lend to people that have similar views on such stuff as yourself. Trouble is you dont find that sort of thing out till it has already gone pear shaped.

Hope it all goes well for you anyway my friend. Hopefully it proves to be a moot point and he offers to get it sorted anyway.

Just wanted you to know your not the only person out there that thinks this way!

(Oh, I NEVER borrow stuff more expensive than I could hope to replace or repair if something happens to go wrong on "my watch" either. Thats another self imposed rule I like to live by.)

Generally, I only lend stuff to people who I know would look after it - and (not by coincidence) these are also the same people that wouldn't dream of handing something back in a worse condition than which it was given to them. Hence no need to declare the "universal rules of borrowing" up front - I would't insult a mate like that.

It doesn't sound like you/we have any idea how this guy is going to handle this....... as long as he hands it back with a "I'm really sorry - tell me how much the bill is going to be" I don't see a problem.

If he doesn't, then it's a simple "oh dear that seems to have broken - I'll let you know how much a new one is" should let the guy know what your expectation is.

Seems like some people on here would have you contacting solicitors before you've even spoken to the bloke

The point I am trying to make, and you seem to be missing, is that you might have no problem and whatever repairs needed might already have been carried out. If not, he might cover whatever cost needed to bring it to the condition it was when you lent it.
The what if scenario and the guys an arse comments are currently unjustified.

It sounds(?) like he isnt a hobby cyclist. I wouldnt lend any £££ kit to any non-equal enthusiast.

How can you expect proper correction of situation?

What if I ask a mate if he can lend me a camera for a school event etc and he lends me a £2,000 digital camera? I break it and think its probably a £300 jobbie. If I knew it was 2k I'd be soooo over careful it'd be unreal.

Lend anyone a bike and theres a high chance they would put a scratch on it.

Especially a mountain bike. Would you ask a mate for £300 for a new csu due to a stanchion minor scratch?

The msg from me? If hes going to be aware of the true value, then you should have made it clear at the start. As it stands you should take some sort of hit on the chin. Brnd it/mend it is obvious on a car. On something specialist you need to forewarn.

Any damaged (beyond cosmetic) parts I'd expect replaced, scratches would be a different issue though, I'd be pissed off but I would see that as a risk when loaning it (which is why I wouldn't have in the first place to someone that's just a work colleague...), I wouldn't expect a paint respray.

My friends and I went for a weekend away and I was asked if I could provide bikes for everyone, as it happened, i couldn't as I didn't have the right sizes for all, so we decided hiring was fairer to everyone.

Having seen how my friends handled the bikes, I'm SO glad they didn't borrow mine. Whenever we came to a rest stop, the bikes were slammed up against one another with a horrible clash and clatter, two ended up in a hedge, one on its side going down the road...

Ultimately, if people have never owned nice bikes, they're simply not aware of the value and treat them like they did when they were children.

We, on STW, often keep our bikes like cars, well maintained and well treated, used, but certainly not abused.

I borrowed a mates Yamaha R1 last week at Mallory. It was made clear that if I destroyed it I was handing over £8000+

I was perfectly fine with this. Although really really glad I never crashed it!

Someone borrowed my road bike once. Had obviously turned it upside down to put wheels on. Scratched the top of my 1 year old STI's. I was bloody livid.

[b]Loan Bike Returned Damaged [/b]

Erm...

I've not got the bike yet but it may even be possible that the left hand 105 shifter has been over shifted and is now broken as well.

We don't even know if there's anything to fix! OP talked about cosmetics and "possibly" the shifter. But then, this thread is mostly about assumptions isn't it.

This is, however, STW 😉

I agree though, until you pick the bike up and discuss it in person this is a none-issue.

This is, however, STW 😉

As for constructive comments, here's one:

Get a grip, be a grown-up, and wait and see what tomorrow brings when you actually go to collect the bike!

Are there really [i]that[/i] many people that don't know the value of a nice bike? I'm sure some people are completely clueless, but most people would know to within +/- 50% of the value, I'd have thought?

I wouldn't lend out an expensive bike except to a very good friend. Even the drivetrain / wheels / tyres wear and tear would probably cost £20/ride on a £2000+ bike. So the lender is losing out even if nothing gets damaged / broken. If I borrowed a nice bike, I'd be conscious of that and at least bung the lender a bottle of wine or something. If you break it though that's different again - It gets fixed.

[i]Are there really that many people that don't know the value of a nice bike? I'm sure some people are completely clueless, but most people would know to within +/- 50% of the value, I'd have thought?[/i]

Don't be daft, that's like saying I should know what a fishing rod is worth - or my wife's handbag.

Most folk would be amazed that you can pay +£250 for a (dropper) seat-post, when they consider £250 is an expensive bike.

Errm.....if you'd bothered to read, it has been confirmed that at least [i]some[/i] damage has been incurred and I'm [i]"not going to like it"[/i].
You appear to be struggling with comprehension so please allow me to remind you. My original and only real question was: Is it widely accepted that you return something in at least as good condition as it was loaned or does it need to be agreed in advance?
As for getting a grip and growing up? Well, this is the Internet and a message board where people seem to type anything they like when they probably wouldn't be as anything like as rude in person seems to be the way of it.

B r I'm amazed we see a £250 dropper as 'normal'. I think over time it becomes normalised but then I was talking to two 70+ ramblers and one told me he paid £400 for a roadbike 40(?) years ago.

I now think 1.5k+ frames is ridiculous regardless of material.

Superficial: is your bike made of cheese that it costs you £20 in wear and tear PER RIDE...????

Even the drivetrain / wheels / tyres wear and tear would probably cost £20/ride on a £2000+ bike.

superficial, you're taking the piss. I have a £2k road bike, and after 100 rides at the worst I might expect to need to replace the tyres and the chain (in reality I've done far more rides than that on it on the original chain). So that's maybe £1 a ride.

Superficial: is your bike made of cheese that it costs you £20 in wear and tear PER RIDE...????

Do you ride on hot lava under the sea?

*Shrugs* Peak district?

New chains +/- cassettes (I'm running XX1...)
Tyres (3C Maxxis don't last forever and they're not cheap)
Stans sealant / tubes
Grips
Shock bushings / bearings etc
General bits and bobs that need fixing / replacing over time

Add up your yearly expenditure on bike parts (Excluding new bikes) and divide by the number of rides. You can factor in frame scuffs etc and depreciation if you like. I don't think £20 is too far off the mark. Perhaps road bikes are a bit cheaper to run. My point was that there is a quantifiable cost to lending your bike out, as well as the risk factor. Maybe my (completely plucked out of thin air) estimates are out by a few quids, but the point remains.

Maybe my (completely plucked out of thin air) estimates are out by a few quids

It's back. It's hammered if not completely wrecked. Left hand shifter pushed too hard and now it is floppy. Right hand shifter has a huge scrape down to the alloy. Bar tape is in tatters at the end with the bar plug missing. I'm assuming this happened from the fall. Right hand pedal also gouged down to the alloy body. Rear mech gouged although the shifting seems fine. I can't tell if the front mech still shifts as the shifter is useless. By far the worst is a massive gouge in the carbon seat stay. I am gutted. Quite sick.
He wasn't home when I picked it up and his partner didn't seem very comfortable in giving me his phone number so I didn't press for it nor in watching me take photo's of it on my telephone.
I've explained to her that the bike was in near perfect condition when he took it and now it is obviously not. Even his partner had the grace to make some embarrassed noises and could see that things are not good.
I'll speak with him tomorrow at work but I'm going to be asking for full replacement of all the parts damaged, even if this means a new frame as well.

Bummer.Maybe you can you ask him to buy the bike off you?
Pics of damage please?

Not much help but why would you lend your bike to someone who you don't even know well enough to have his phone number?

When you say he was wasn't home when you picked it up, is he still in hospital?
Usually when somebody kills a bike that comprehensively they need patching up themselves.

Condolences for your loss, but I agree with most above - don't lend stuff to people that don't know the too-obvious-to-be-stated rules. And don't lend bikes to people that can't ride bikes.

Can't you just borrow his car and crash it?

any picz?

New frame, new STI's, new pedals. That's what I'd be asking for.

If I'd borrowed the bike I would have already ordered the replacements before handing the bike back, I would then rebuild it for them even better than before to say sorry.

Anyone thinks anything less is acceptable has waaaay too much money and by the way, you're not borrowing anything of mine!

Not much help but why would you lend your bike to someone who you don't even know well enough to have his phone number?

This x10000!!!!

Why on earth did you lend it to someone from work who you hardly know ? I don't get this at all..