Forum menu
THere's an interesting article on PB about the new setup on the Zerode G3 which is in conjuntion with Hope on the tensioner etc.
But i'm curious as to whether people are viewing the gearbox/belt setups yet as viable in any way ?
As some may know, i've just ordered an Atherton A200, but it was a toss-up between the Atherton and a Zerode G3. But nothing really jumped out at me with the Zerode due to i guess a lack of results, lack of spares at a race weekend, etc etc...
The boy has tried both and loved both, but not timed runs on the Zerode to test that theory, but not many people have one in the paddocks so it's hard to test.
I’ve had a belt drive pinion gearbox Nicolai Ion since 2016. It does reduce unsprung weight, it does require less maintenance and it is way less vulnerable to damage than a derailleur BUT downhill bikes use smaller cassettes and mechs reducing those advantages and I’m not aware of damage to mechs being a big problem in DH racing (or is it?). My opinion after nine years of ownership is gearboxes don’t deserve much of the criticism they get but at the same time I’m not surprised they haven’t set the world on fire.
Two things I’ve reluctantly had to accept this year,
1. The belted purse has made it clear a belt and gearbox is an option not a giant leap forward
2. Fox’s Podium has proven upside down forks aren’t better on an MTB
I think you made the right choice going for the Atherton
I love the idea of one, but they are too pricey for me and I'm not riding 10,000 of mile a year so the benefit don't make up for the cost.
Although I have bent either the mech or the hangar on one bike and one 2nd hand rear mech has died on another bike in the last 2 months.
. The belted purse has made it clear a belt and gearbox is an option not a giant leap forward
is this some weird autocorrect issue or am I out of touch?
. The belted purse has made it clear a belt and gearbox is an option not a giant leap forward
is this some weird autocorrect issue or am I out of touch?
In World Cup DH there's a prize of $100,000 to the first person to win on a belted bike... As he says, this has encouraged people like Atherton and Gamux to try and increase their stake in gearbox bikes.... But as he says, in terms of results, they've not exactly set the world on fire.
They're fast and good, but so are all the other bikes... Hence, being an 'option' rather than a first choice for people.
Thank Weeksy, a spot on translation of my ramble 😀
But i'm curious as to whether people are viewing the gearbox/belt setups yet as viable in any way ?
Viable for what?
One of the lads' coaches is sponsored by Zerode. He has the enduro and DH. I asked him what he thought and he said he loves them...but I didn't chat for long.
I think we need to give it another year or two to decide about belts in DH - there are obviously a few teething problems to work out - and if Kolb had stayed on Atherton it might have been a different story already.
Can't see myself ever going over to them, but I'd love to see more teams give them a go at the World Cups.
I don't think your average person keeps a bike long enough to warrant the additional expense or see the extra lifespan as a benefit. I like the idea of one but as someone who runs a fairly cheap Deore drivetrain, it's likely to be a long time before a gearbox is a realistic possibility for me.
I've said before, but I don't really want a gearbox, I just want the current system moved around a bit.
Something like the Phaser 'gearbox' (which is just two cassettes and a front mech on a slider) on a Starling Sturn (jack drive with the main pivot also being the upper Bottom Bracket).
Not sure if all that makes sense but it seems like a simple solution to moving all the gear change mechanics away from the rear wheel.
Oli Clark won a Junior DH on the MS Zerode.
He did yes.. And it did OK in females at times too. But Oli is a brilliant rider anyway and would have done well on whatever bike..
If you look at the riders like Hatton, Madley, Waite, Harnden, Wilson, none of them really stepped higher than you'd honestly expect. Maybe even the opposite due to being on the gearbox... I thought Hatton had a disappointing season considering his talent for example. George Madley had a good season, but was that due to the gearbox bike, or in spite of it.... Mmmmm
I don't think there is any performance or competitive advantage to be had with either a gearbox or a belt drive.
I love the idea of a gearbox bike and would have bought a Zerode had they been a bit more widely available. I'm an Engineer and I see the overall durability improvement as worth going the 'extra-mile'
Belts look cool but I don't think they offer any advantage, I don't think a belt drive is any better than a chain. So I won't be bothering with that. Even if someone wins a World DH Cup race ;o)
I have no inside info or anything, but I feel Hatton might have suffered for not having that partnership with Kolb any more. They were such a great pair and I think Andreas must be the perfect team mate. He's got such a great, positive personality.
To go on even more of a tangent, I have a hunch that Kolb might get signed by Spesh for next year.
Oli Clark won a Junior DH on the MS Zerode.
He did yes.. And it did OK in females at times too. But Oli is a brilliant rider anyway and would have done well on whatever bike..
If you look at the riders like Hatton, Madley, Waite, Harnden, Wilson, none of them really stepped higher than you'd honestly expect. Maybe even the opposite due to being on the gearbox... I thought Hatton had a disappointing season considering his talent for example. George Madley had a good season, but was that due to the gearbox bike, or in spite of it.... Mmmmm
Hattie hasn't had a brilliant season in DH with injuries. She did win the opening EDR on a gearbox Nicolai though...
In the elite men I think Reece is probably the one that will bother the podium if he stay injury free.
Not doubting Charlie Hatton's abilities, but he's only been top 10 a few times, other than his World Champs win he hasn't podiumed that I can see. I think if Kolb had stayed he would have at least podiumed on the gear box.
Something like the Phaser 'gearbox' (which is just two cassettes and a front mech on a slider) on a Starling Sturn (jack drive with the main pivot also being the upper Bottom Bracket).
Not sure if all that makes sense but it seems like a simple solution to moving all the gear change mechanics away from the rear wheel.
Hadn't you noticed? We're now all removing front mechs and moving as much of the gear change mechanics TOWARDS the rear wheel, keep up! 😎
I have no inside info or anything, but I feel Hatton might have suffered for not having that partnership with Kolb any more. They were such a great pair and I think Andreas must be the perfect team mate. He's got such a great, positive personality.
To go on even more of a tangent, I have a hunch that Kolb might get signed by Spesh for next year.
Rumour I've heard is Orbea FMD....
Rumour I've heard is Orbea FMD....
Ooh right, that would be cool.
Him and Martin would make a great pair too - and some of the stoke might rub off on Tahnee if she's still racing.
I'd be a convert if I could afford/justify yet another bike. I like the Geometron GPI but it would be a pig as a trail bike compared to my Druid V2. A gravity focused, mullet version could be an option when I retire the Airdrop from DH duties.
I also really like the e-bike version with the Pinion MGU but again, it's an absolute monster in both weight and price.
I really like the Zerode but think the factory tension system is a bit jerry-rig. I've heard of people snapping pivot bolts and getting wobbly linkages. The Hope bike looks nicer but I'd wait until all those solutions are standard. Maybe wait for the G4.
Having no need for a proper DH bike is the main hurdle for me.
I'll have a gearbox/belt when they're attached to a bike I want to buy, not when I want a gearbox/belt but they're attached to something unsuitable.
I’m very curious about the Pinion MGU. I think it would be great on a commuter bike. Simple, clean and low maintenance.
I don’t have the budget or need to really justify it. But if I was flush with cash and it was burning a hole in my pocket, a commuter bike with the MGU would be near the top of the list.
I have a Pinion Ti Broken Road, Its a bike packing bike and for that use its perfect as you don't want to get caught out with a broken mech miles away from anywhere with a loaded bike. The unsprung mass thing is less of a benefit than on a hardtail. Its heavy, its expensive and offers marginally more range that 11 speed Deore which is my go to groupset which you can get an entire drive train for £150. It's an indulgence for me but I figure a Titanium bike packing is as close as a bike for life as you can get so I don't mind
you don't want to get caught out with a broken mech miles away from anywhere with a loaded bike.
Its heavy, its expensive and offers marginally more range that 11 speed Deore which is my go to groupset
OK, I'm just being mischievous here, but I bet you could strap a spare mech and chain (or two) to the normal version and it'd still be lighter than the Pinion one 😉
I have no inside info or anything, but I feel Hatton might have suffered for not having that partnership with Kolb any more. They were such a great pair and I think Andreas must be the perfect team mate. He's got such a great, positive personality.
To go on even more of a tangent, I have a hunch that Kolb might get signed by Spesh for next year.
Rumour I've heard is Orbea FMD....
Wonder why he was wearing syndicate kit, pushing a V10 around yesterday then?
I'm sure you could but I'd rather not have to deal with that on a loaded bike. I said it was an indulgence, I've managed one overnight trip on it a few day rides on it this year at this rate I'll never have to change the oil.
Much as above, I am not sure that they make a significant performance improvement for DH racing.
The rear wheel I am sure feels more sensitive unsprung mass etc, but can't see it saving seconds of a race run.
So, think the fastest rider will win, regardless of drive train.
For normal riders/ride I can see the functional upside, less maintenance, less chance of a ride ruining mechanical
Having never ridden one, the elephant in the room for that is the extra drag, are you prepared for the climbs to feel harder for the upsides? Is it a real problem?
If I was looking for a winch & plummet enduro type bike I would be looking pretty closely at the geometron GPI
But its heavy and its expensive, how much that matters to you is up for debate.
Likewise, if I was after a ebike, I would be looking closely at the pinion MGU options, but for me, the remote & tensioners of the system still feel like they have a way to be improved.
And again, the bike options are limited and not quite what I would be looking for.
So, for me, not convinced just yet, but want to be.... and for e-bikes, it has to be the future right, as the really only downsides are weight, that is a smaller proportional issue on a heavy ebike anyway, and drag, that you have a motor for.....
I have no inside info or anything, but I feel Hatton might have suffered for not having that partnership with Kolb any more. They were such a great pair and I think Andreas must be the perfect team mate. He's got such a great, positive personality.
To go on even more of a tangent, I have a hunch that Kolb might get signed by Spesh for next year.
Rumour I've heard is Orbea FMD....
Wonder why he was wearing syndicate kit, pushing a V10 around yesterday then?
Just jumped over to Vital, and yes, there's a pic of Kolb with Syndicate stuff on - I stand corrected. Although I did say 'rumour' - had heard he'd been spending a fair bit of time chatting to Tony Seagrave over the last couple of rounds. Perhaps that was plan B lol
One of the lads' coaches is sponsored by Zerode.
I asked him what he thought and he said he loves them....
Well he would say that. . . . . lol
Don't get me wrong - I'm a believer even if I haven't ridden one. My money no object Alps bikes would be a long travel Geometron G1 GP1 Pinion for uplifts and a S16 MGU for pedal adventures.
I'd like an MGU ebike but they're sufficiently complicated that I'll stick with wearing out chains and cassettes too quickly until the inevitable teething problems have been dealt with.
I don't think there's enough of a performance advantage to switch, it's in reliability and durability that a gearbox should win - but that's not easy with a complex new product (especially with a motor involved), when conventional gears have had decades of refinement.
We have belt drive on our e-cargo bike and my commuter, both hub gears. I love it. Ideal for urban use where the bikes get used and abused and not necessarily cleaned on a regular basis.
For a mtb id be tempted with a pinion based belt drive hardtail, but I’m still happy with normal gears
But i'm curious as to whether people are viewing the gearbox/belt setups yet as viable in any way ?
As a performance differentiator in a competitive environment...? Not at all... Won't be for a VERY long time if at all! Hats off to Gates for throwing the $100k purse into the mix to try and create a bit of innovation in the sport though, but when it comes down to it, the drivetrain is the least important part of a DH bike by some margin and there's easier/cheaper ways to improve the sprung/unsprung mass ratio than bolting a gearbox into the middle of the bike...
Besides... When was the last time you saw a motorbike win a race with a belt drive?!?! I know Harley Davidson road bikes come fitted with them and they last a long time, but for racing applications, the belts are always replaced with a good old chain and sprocket setup...
Where gearboxes, and to a lesser extent belt drives, really work, is for those who ride lots in all conditions and will take a slight weight/performance/efficiency/cost tradeoff for a significant improvement in robustness and a lack of maintenance... Belt drives are great for commuters, ideally on a hardtail frame where they don't need additional tensioners and anything that increases their complexity and introduces more failure points... Gearboxes likewise also making a significant use case in the world of eMTB too... In fact, having ridden the Nicolai/Geometron S16 MGU, I can attest to just how effective the Pinion MGU is, albeit it definitely does have some way to come to match the refinement and integration of the likes of a Bosch Gen5 CX setup, it shows immense potential and will likely only improve massively with subsequent revisions... In fact, I was close to ordering one earlier this year... I only relented due to personal financial circumstances and the realisation that a next gen MGU is likely to be so much better than the current system and probably isn't too far away, but I can see one in my future for sure... Just drop the range from 600% to maybe 450-500%, drop from 12 speeds to 9, doing so should save a bit of weight and complexity out of the system without any real compromises (10th, 11th and 12th were all totally redundant gears on the S16 when I rode it, unless you really feel you need to pedal on the flat above the 15.5mph assist limit at sub 50rpm cadence levels)...
And for anyone who wants to cross the world by bike... Well it's a small niche market for sure, but those that are into that kind of exploration are all over the regular Pinion gearboxes these days, having proven themselves so robust and reliable, when combined with a belt (carry a spare just in case), that they no longer need to run basic derailleur setups just so they can find spares in any bike shop the world over any longer!
Back to your point @weeksy...
It is purely a marketing exercise by Gates sticking a $100k purse up for the first win on a belt drive... To raise awareness for the system on bicycles, to a public otherwise ignorant to the fact that a belt drive is even an option on a bicycle... Personally, as much as I want an MGU eMTB in my future quite badly, I'd much rather continue providing the drive to the rear wheel with a chain as though they need more maintenance, they tend to be more robust to the elements and cheaper and easier to replace as and when anything does go wrong... I don't ride enough mileage to get the benefits out of a belt drive by a looooooong way either... Which only proves to serve just how ludicrous the idea of a belt drive on a DH MTB being a performance differentiator is, when you consider how few miles those bikes travel, how little time is spent pedalling on them etc...
I have a belt drive commute/utility bike bit with hub gears. Price over the equivalent chain/derailleur bike was about £400 if I remember right, I suspect that most of the additional cost is down to the belt and associated chainring as a hub costs about £170 retail.
It's doing ok reliability wise, 3.5 years old and about 8000 miles, but I had single speed chains that lasted donkies years before this bike and they are really cheap to replace too, whereas I reckon it's going to be £250+ for the belt and stuff come the time.
With this knowledge and the cost of a gearbox, I probably wouldn't bother on a mountain bike.
The best advancement for gearboxes is electric shifting, not belts.
Makes shifting no different, at all, to a regular derailleur set up.
I’ve a cable set up, with triggers, on long travel alps bike and it’s OK, but I can see a switch in the future.
Didn't someone do a drivetrain where the free hub was in the BB and the cassette & chain were constantly moving - allowing shifting without pedalling so in the right gear before you stomp on the pedals.
Surely this would be better for a DH as the free hub in the BB would do the same as the O-Chain etc.?
Didn't someone do a drivetrain where the free hub was in the BB and the cassette & chain were constantly moving - allowing shifting without pedalling so in the right gear before you stomp on the pedals.
Surely this would be better for a DH as the free hub in the BB would do the same as the O-Chain etc.?
Not sure about previous versions but that's what this is
https://www.williamsracingproducts.com/shop/p/centrehub-pre-order
To go on even more of a tangent, I have a hunch that Kolb might get signed by Spesh for next year.
Well you got the first letter right.
I like the idea of belt drive.
However until XC mtb racers are all using them it’s clearly not viable
Bit like the shift to disc brakes on road bikes. Well ok that was slightly different…
Besides... When was the last time you saw a motorbike win a race with a belt drive?!?! I know Harley Davidson road bikes come fitted with them and they last a long time, but for racing applications, the belts are always replaced with a good old chain and sprocket setup...
I don't understand the relevance of the comparison between a racing motorbike that is powered by an engine and a mountain bike powered by legs.
they tend to be more robust to the elements
I've read this a few times but have yet to see any detail on why this is a problem. Without looking hard there's this thread where a few people say mud is no bother Gates belt drive and mud? – Bike Forum – Singletrack World Magazine Forum
I know a WC mechanic and he was saying that at the start of the season in the mud belt retention was an issue - probably why MS have gone to Hope for a solution.
It's interesting. On one hand there's a lot on Zerode's site about how belt and box is much better in mud than chain and sprockets, and I'm sure I saw Reece (or someone else?) talking about the same at the beginning of the season. Obviously, I get why they would say this.
On the other hand, there's a lot of talk about potential belt-shedding.
But i've never seen any images of belt carnage. Maybe this a Big Chain conspiracy?
I'd be interested if some of the top EDR riders were to run belts to see how they went over a season without mechanics on hand every 2.5km. Did anyone do that this year? (aside from Hattie's one(?) race).
Personally I love the idea of Zerode or something similar as a novelty, but I expect it's like wireless gears. Within half a ride it's just normalised anyway.
Reality is I couldn't be arsed with the extra cost, plus needing a 142mm rear wheel to go with the Boost and SuperBoost wheels in the shed.
I don't understand the relevance of the comparison between a racing motorbike that is powered by an engine and a mountain bike powered by legs.
No, you're right... They're completely different things! 🤣
Except... They are of course, absolutely not... Your legs are simply two big pistons, pushing up and down on a crank, turning linear up and down movement into a rotational force that then goes through a gearbox/drivetrain which then powers the rear wheel... In EXACTLY the same fashion that a Twin cylinder engine on a motorbike does would you believe! Shock horror!!!
I need to find it but there's a brilliant interview on YouTube somewhere with Chris Porter, where he goes into just how everyone in the bicycle trade likes to believe how different bicycles are compared to motorbikes and how somehow they would all have you believe that the laws of physics and maths don't apply to bicycles in the same way that they do motorbikes... 🤣 It's superb! Genuinely the biggest differences between bicycles and motorbikes are that the rider is a much higher % of the system weight on a bicycle than on a motorbike, therefore contributes much more directly to the dynamics of how the bike behaves than on a motorbike. Also your legs will only spin at a fraction of the speed even the lowest revving motorbike engines run at, so forces tend to be smoother and more predictable on a motorbike than on a bicycle, though they are typically much higher of course, especially when multiplied through a gearbox and final drive ratio that is required to put the power down from an engine spinning at many thousands of rpm vs the 80-100 rpm that your legs can spin at... Otherwise, they are incredibly similar...
You do realise that the BIGGEST selling point of a belt drive compared to a chain is its resistance to torque and its durability over distance/time... Right...?
A DH mountain bike ridden for maybe 3 or 4 minutes at a time, where the rider is freewheeling for 95% of the time and aside from maybe 3/4 pedal strokes out of the gate where they're pushing hard, the rest of the pedalling being done is at a high cadence with minimal torque going through the drivetrain, DOES NOT strike me as an obvious use case for a belt drive...
A 1900+cc V-Twin motorbike with a torque curve that looks like Table Mountain, on a big heavy machine, doing many thousands of miles over a period of years and where minimal maintenance would really be a big benefit, does... 👍
Are you still struggling...? Maybe measure the torque your legs can put out and then compare it to that of a big Harley Davidson engine, and then add in the multiplication factor that the gearbox and final drive ratio on the bike will add too (on a bicycle, once you're above a 1:1 ratio you're reducing your effective torque anyway)...
Trust me here... Gates' $100k purse is all about raising the profile of the brand in the wider cycling world... NOT about its suitability as a high performance product!
I've read this a few times but have yet to see any detail on why this is a problem. Without looking hard there's this thread where a few people say mud is no bother
And I know many people that have snapped them in UK conditions, and I know Taylor Vernon's Dad (who is his mechanic) quite well personally, and I know how much trouble they were having originally trying to get the belt drive to stay on the bike in thick muddy conditions...
I know a WC mechanic and he was saying that at the start of the season in the mud belt retention was an issue - probably why MS have gone to Hope for a solution.
Touché
I'm mechanically naive, clearly. But...
Also your legs will only spin at a fraction of the speed even the lowest revving motorbike engines run at, so forces tend to be smoother and more predictable on a motorbike than on a bicycle, though they are typically much higher of course, especially when multiplied through a gearbox and final drive ratio that is required to put the power down from an engine spinning at many thousands of rpm vs the 80-100 rpm that your legs can spin at...
... yes, that was kinda my point. Just much wordier 🤣
And I know many people that have snapped them in UK conditions, and I know Taylor Vernon's Dad (who is his mechanic) quite well personally, and I know how much trouble they were having originally trying to get the belt drive to stay on the bike in thick muddy conditions...
I hadn't heard or read that from anyone ever before, so thanks for clearing it up. Many sounds like a lot though, i'm surprised I haven't seen any videos of people walking down tracks with belts flapping around ... or am I right in thinking there was a woman at Lake Placid or maybe the race before that did a run with a dislodged belt?
Trust me here... Gates' $100k purse is all about raising the profile of the brand in the wider cycling world... NOT about its suitability as a high performance product!
Well really?
It’s not $100,000 it’s €100,000 which is actually $116,209.50. Not everything is American.
... except, ironically, the Gates Corporation