I get the feeling that USA is just as fragmented as anywhere else. Here (Mid-Atlantic USA) is 29er central! 90% of the bikes on the trails here are 29ers and 75% are hardtails. (The trails here are far more 'technical' than most stuff I rode in 7 Stanes/Lakes/Peaks/Dales in a different way. Trails here are tight but flowing, short sharp technical climbs, rooty in places, massively rocky in other places.) People don't ride in the wet for reasons already dealt with.
However, people who have ridden in New England, or the West Coast say 26er full sus bikes are the choice there, and it sounds pretty similar to the UK, trails are ridden all year round. The USA is a big place...
The difference in rider style between Inners/GT (my old stamping round) and here is night and day. But I wouldn't want to ride my UK bike on these trails any more than I'd want to take my SS down the north side of Nan Bield.
gavinb, i think the media here reflect the riding scene and it's then self-perpetating as new riders come into it and read the mags / websites. to generalise / risk stereotyping, we have a 'get on with it' approach and are interested in the fun less than the tech. another sterotype, the german market love lightweight and tech. their media and bikes refect that.
maybe there are cultural reasons for all this, beyond the MTB scene?
cookieaa, i think that's spot on. basic riding attitudes haven't changed in all the years i've been riding. bikes have changed more than the riders attitudes and we all go through 'bike type' cycles.
I think the media here reflect the riding scene and it's then self-perpetuating as new riders come into it and read the mags / websites. To generalise / risk stereotyping, we have a 'get on with it' approach and are interested in the fun less than the tech. Another sterotype, the German market love lightweight and tech. Their media and bikes refect that.
A very good point I think James-O
You seem to omitting a whole subset of UK riders from this debate, those who have realised that their local trails are in fact rather naff, and thus opt to regress from their 6 inch AM rig to a humble CX bike and set out to own the local trails before alcohol takes a hold and one day the find themselves rocking up at CyB and feeling rather underbiked and vunerable in the carpark prior to achieving piles the size of a bunch of grapes and forearms that are truely spinach worthy of popeye in his best steroid induced form
holy lack of punctuation batman
Qwerty: i've realised that my local trails are awesome and techy, with lots of climbing, i find a hardtail makes them easier...
(unless i'm on a bridleway - in which case you're right, a hardtail makes them almost worth riding again)
.
we have a 'get on with it' approach
which is why we ride cx bikes and hardtails and ss bikes more as you say qwerty? just for fun innit.
qwerty - Member
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haha - excellent response!
it's an interesting debate but i think most of you are getting hung up on bike types and genres. i have 3 bikes - a 6" FS, an LT HT & a short travel SS. i have used them all for local XC hacking around in the winter/summer gloop, carrying them up mountains and blatting down the other side, trail centres, big countryside epics, jumping and DH specific sessions. they all worked fine and i always had/have a great time so not particularly bothered about whether they fit within the UK scene.
i'd like to give a 29er a proper run out but at the moment there are plenty more bikes i'd rather be throwing money at.
James/epicyclo.
go and find a 20" BMX(or kids mtb if you're worried the geometry is too different), a 26" MTB and a 29er. Try and 360 them on eafter another.
No rideable Geomtery or specific rake/trail/Headangle in the world will make the 29er spin better than the 26, or the 26 the 20.
Epi - If you want to use motorbikes in defence to your arguement go and find TJ he's prob the only one so set in his ways he might bite.
James - FFS = a massively tallented bike rider of most disciplines turning up for one weekend a year to one event does not make a full time freerider. the "Elbry" comment was entirely tongue in cheek
Cy Turner (cotic) gave a very interesting presentation at Sheffield Uni a few weeks ago,
part of the presentation was a small bit on 29er design...
here we go, in a nutshell:
one of the key factors affecting handling is 'trail' (google it), wheel size affects trail, as a frame designer, Cy needs to alter fork offset/head angle to get the same 'trail' effect with a 29er wheel vs a 26er.
sus' forks have only really been available for 29ers in the form of lengthened 26er forks (not ideal), with offsets of around 45mm. leaving frame designers with no choice but to steepen the head angle as the only way to get the same 'trail'
consequently, 29ers handled like drunk donkeys.
now, fork manufacturers are starting to make true 29er specific forks - with offsets of 50-something mm, which will allow slacker head angles to get the same 'trail' as before.
consequently, 29ers might be worth looking at. some of them even look good now.
GW, I have 3x 20" wheel bikes, several 26" wheel bikes, and 1x 29er. I have ridden them all extensively on the trails around here (yes, even the 20")
The 29er is the best bike.
Also if the argument about the weight of the wheels had any water, then motorbikes are a relevant comparison because they have heavy wheels. It is not a relevant argument though, because the wheel weight difference between a 26" and a 29" is a minor factor.
If you are interested, try reading Phil Irving or Tony Foale (motorbike - but easy reads), and Y. LeHenaff on Dynamic Stability of the Bicycle.
Oh noes not this again!
Don't waste energy on thinking about what type of bikes others ride (too much sus, too big wheels etc etc). They don't care. Not even a little bit; they'll ride whatever they want to and have just as much fun as you.
Man with firmly held conviction argues against another man with firmly held conviction: pointless deadlock ensued.
Other Man makes comment
GW, ok point understood on Gee / 'full time'. fair point not made too clearly. rider contract details aside, there are riders in the uK that can cut it at that level if required but the uk's scene, spons opps and terrain seems to support racers better than freeriders. USA / Canada may well be quite different.
anyway, fair play if you can 360 well, but i don't think more than maybe 2 or 3 people on an MTB forum like this look for 360-ability in a trail MTB. it's just not an example that disproves what i'm saying about wheel size vs geometry for XC-trail riding. 'chuckable / flickable' in a technicaly-capable trail mtb is different to a 360-able DJ bike.
are the most technically skilled riders we all ride with on 29ers? no. is that because 29ers suck technically? in 90% of cases, probably yes. does that mean no-one will ever make a good 29er for technical trail riding? of course not. there are a few, and they may well get better. the wheels themselves are only seem to be a limiting factor in the designer's aproach to the complete bike.
yeah, this is about bike attitudes in the US/Europe/UK not 29ers, but they're a good example to highlight the differences - as well as the way people write a bike off being something that perhaps all MTB scenes have in common )
'don't like'
'why not'
'just don't, not ridden one enough to understand / don' care / think it looks odd / mate says they're crap'
'ok but i like mine so maybe you should' 🙂
time to go. sorry but my job involves NOT writing bikes off and that's been an eyeopener cos i'm just as opinionated on what i like / don't as anyone, so i can have this debate with myself 🙂
I think the big forked HT thing has a lot to do with the lack of lift assistance in the UK (understandable as the hills are mostly so dinky, especially in the Midlands). I ride a LT HT because I can, with some grunting and moaning, get it to the top by pedalling and still have a lot of fun going back down. From there it's not a big step to think, ah, I'll just get rid of the XC FS bike and ride this for everything.
epi - OMFG - I have read and do understand "trail"
but it seems clear you don't seem to understand that to get the best handling out of them, off road bicycles are not ridden in the same way as motorbikes!! On an mtb the fastest most stable way through a rock garden has very little to do with being able to turn your bars quickly but if you knew what you were talking about you'd already know that.
J - being able to actually 360 well is irrelivent, it was simply an example to show you two that wheel size does actually matter in terms of "chuckability/flickability" - there's a hell of a lot more to cornering than turning the bars 😉
FWIW - I never said I didn't like 29ers. I completely "get" them but even on trails much more suited to a 29er than a 26" mtb I wouldn't want to be on one, coz I'll always find something fun/interesting to ride even on the dullest terrain.
i think we can agree that it makes a difference. and i can appreciate what makes a 'funner' 26" bike preferable to many riders on any terrain, my 26s tend to be biased that way since i was into 4x and DH on my chameleon years ago but i still loved it on all day xc hacks, i just don't do that kind of wheels off the ground riding much anymore.
However when a rider can move a 26" FS DH bike that's 38lbs around like good DHers can, and knowing how varied 29ers can feel to hop / jump / drop over day to day trail obstacles, i honestly believe that the wheel size is of minor importance compared to other factors in the bikes design for how you corner and move it around.
up to me to try to prove it sometime i guess..
some laughable thread content and some good comments between the repetitive dross through.
I think the uk still follows what happens in the usa. Whether due to fashion, effectiveness or just parts availability i am not sure. most of the homegrown brands are trying to carve a slightly different rut as there is a small demand for it by 'forward thinking riders' but mainly because you cant compete with the big companies head on for the majority of the market. showroom appeal, marketing, brand, xt rear mechs sell more bikes over here than anything else.
In mainland europe mountain biking is still a bit of a niche for road guys to play with, it is changing but still heavily influences the bikes and style.
this is changing gradually and is likely to produce some very good riders in the future.
One thing that does seem clear is that everyone has more terrain to ride on, we just use what we have effectively.
29ers, not tried one yet but will do and like the idea for some things. i have heard that germany is the only place in europe where sales are starting to take off.
anyone got a cannondale hooligan? new niche maybe. ummm i think we use the word niche too often to make ourselves feel special.
Also, if we have such special conditions and demands why is it we only produce frames (that should really be design not produce) can someone not make a super mud compatible gear system and sell loads?
The big stores also seem to take euro bikes and sell them over here far more readily than they sell our brands over there.
Thankfully cycling has the diversity that the automotive industry is losing, i hope it continues.
Going back to my post - my point was that, other than a few more 29ers coming in to the UK (as well as home grown), nothing has really changed. Forks might get a bit longer, but the HT remains, the FS is still there and so are the niches. I don't really see a 'trend' in Europe or the USA that is specific to them that we're ignoring or picking up.
As for ahwiles' post - either Cy Turner is 3 years out of date with his 'research', or you've gone astray a bit on what he said. It's a bit like saying 'suspension forks were a bit rubbish once - they are better now'. 😕
You could be right I think Ivantate.
Perhaps a big factor in the difference between the UK scene and the US/Euro scene is where we're coming from. I've run an MTB Club at the school I work at for nearly 10yrs now and invariably the kids come from BMX/skateboarding into MTB, and as such, want to play in the woods on their bikes, many moving on to downhill, dirt jump and trials. Out of the hundred or so kids I've taken out riding over the years, only 2 or 3 have moved onto road cycling (one very successfully I hasten to add). Kids coming into the sport are ultimately what are driving the UK scene.
I get the impression that in the USA and Europe especially, mountain biking is more of a niche aside from the bigger road cycling scene (perhaps why 29ers are more popular as the standard seems more familiar?). Our kids are generally not so attracted to road cycling as a sport to take up, despite our success on the track etc recently. Freeride / Downhill / Trials etc on the other hand are readily available to them in an attractive form on YouTube etc. The boys I take out are currently obsessed with Red Bull Rampage footage for example (not my cup of tea!).
Kids just want to do what they think is cool, and as new entrants onto our UK scene they are in the driving seat over the next decade.
It's a bit like saying 'suspension forks were a bit rubbish once - they are better now'.
Isn't this true though TooTall?
Surely designs improve over time as more manufacturers / designers / engineers / testers and ultimately consumers become involved. 29ers seem to be improving in this way, as have carbon frames and components etc.
Although AH seems to have quoted Cy Turner almost word for word I am sure at the end of the 29er bit he mentioned that although the fork crown offset standard has been changed for 29ers now it is only about half of what he would want to be added for the kind of riding he designs his bikes for.
Also, as he is now selling frames in the US there will have to be a 29er in the Cotic line up, what he didnt say was if it would be designed to ride as close to a big wheeled Soul or whether the rest of the bike would be designed to suit the riding dictated by the steering geometry.
a bit off topic but atleast shows that no matter how small the %age of sales you have to have a 29er in the line up to have a crack at the US market.
SpokesCycles - MemberMotorbikes are not a fair analogy. It's easy to flick a bike when you have 40-50hp to boost it about with.
You've never raced an offroad motorbike have you...
You make some quite stupid claims from time to time but that one realy made me laugh.
Paceman - the fork trail issue was dealt with a few years ago - it just takes an entrenched public a few more years to catch up.
Road cycling - the USA has a more roadie-friendly network of roads - those smooth surfaces have to be a good thing. The MTB scene in the USA is there and big - just not the coverage. They even have schools competing against each other - that has to be good. 29er has nothing to do with familiar standards - they have a lot of racers and a lot of big country riding that suits the bikes - we have a small, crowded island where we cram a lot into small spaces! I think more people just ride bikes now - I know some hardcore roadies commenting on the '******* sportif riders' being dangerous in higher Cat races - blurred edges between the niches.
Never seen a 29er in the flesh either
Are you taking the mickey? 4-5 local riders round here have them, mayber more.
Never seen anyone on a 29er round here either (W Yorks/Peaks/Calderdale)
Anyone thought about another aspect of the 29er thing? I think they will catch on more with the taller riders but at 5'7" in height I think 26" is best for me.
A bit OT but still relevent.
When I lived over in Germany in the late 90's I met up with a few m/c's and rode regularly with them over the summer/autumn. And then found that they all parked up their m/c's for winter (as they only had 'term-time' insurance). They were amazed that I kept mine insured and did in fact ride it, even if only now-and-again.
One of them worked for BMW, and it dawned on him why the vast majority of UK owners specified heated grips...
And as said by someone else, my continental friends ski/snowboard in winter, or road/CX.
Also took a German to Afan, he ran up the steep uphills - and then was surprised that we rode the downhills..., at home his riding was more about k's and meters-ascended - mostly fireroad.
I've just found some belly button fluff. Anyone else?
GW - Member
epi - ...it seems clear you don't seem to understand that to get the best handling out of them, off road bicycles are not ridden in the same way as motorbikes!! On an mtb the fastest most stable way through a rock garden has very little to do with being able to turn your bars quickly but if you knew what you were talking about you'd already know that...
Mmm, I think you've convinced me. I'll forget all the practical experimentation I have done, and recognise that my experience riding a trials bike is worthless. Irving and Foale are now fools in my eyes.
Hear me, hear me! I recant, [b]small wheels are better[/b]!
Now off to take my Dahon around the 'Puffer course.
It's got 20" wheels so with the superior insight I have gained from your knowledge that will be even better than 26", won't it?
So what size wheels does this mbike have ? 😀
FIXED! 😉Hear me, hear me! I recant, [b]small wheels are better[/b] at changing direction! and larger wheels are better for rolling over bumps in a straight line..
So now we agree you can stop being a dick about it and get back to being nicher than anyone else around your local woods.
Braaaaaaaaapppppp!!!
I'm with robdob etc, I think I've seen 1 29er in all the time I've been riding (Calderdale, West Yorks in general, NYM and regular trail centre trips etc).
I think all bikes are mint, its just that some (CX and 29ers/69ers) are a bit less mint than others (26" short travel, slack hardtails/full sussers built for ragging in the woods and continual grin inducement). But its whatever floats your boat...
easier to 360 a micro scooter than a bmx.
don't see how that makes it a better mtb though?
"Although AH seems to have quoted Cy Turner almost word for word I am sure at the end of the 29er bit he mentioned that although the fork crown offset standard has been changed for 29ers now it is only about half of what he would want to be added for the kind of riding he designs his bikes for. "
that's where the Jones bikes are rake-wise. There may well be a few more Jones-style geometry bikes over the next few years and they may catch on more than the current 29ers do here.
We'll then be moving towards a USA-born niche.
easier to 360 a micro scooter than a bmx.
don't see how that makes it a better mtb though?
That's coz you are being a bit dumb about it and trying to cause more argument, as is everyone else who can not see the reason why whoever posted about 360ing a bmx did so. The smaller the wheels size the more manoeuverable the bike, so when this thread got onto 'flick-ability' (for want of a better term) of a bike the point was to illustrate that the smaller the wheels the easier it is to manoeuver the bike through rocks and roots. It IS easier to spin a smaller wheeled bike. In the same way, freestyle skis and snowboards are shorter than their off-piste, back country counterparts as they have been designed more with spinning tricks in mind. As the topic of conversation at the time was about the merits and negatives of the 26 vs 29 wheel the poster was saying that the smaller wheel (26) would fare better. He was correct to state that a BMX would be easier to 360 than a 26/29 mtb just as you are correct to state that the micro scooter would be easier to 3 than a BMX. So you actually highlighted his point further.
What he wasn't saying was that the smaller the wheel the less rolling resistance it would have on rocks, as we all know the bigger the wheel the more inclined it will be to roll over stuff. This is why if you put a BMX against and mtb (26 or 29) on an offroad track it would lose, it would struggle to get over many of the obstacles that a bigger wheeled bike would roll over. Ever ridden a micro-scooter and flipped over the bars when you hit the smallest pebble? Neither have I, but you get the picture.
I'm taking all the "I've never seen a 29er" comments with a pinch of salt given that they're usually ridden by freakishly tall people, which means it's quite hard to tell what size their wheels are. A better yardstick would be "I've stopped seeing all those grown men riding around my local trails on children's bicycles".
Last time I looked we are part of Europe? Good to see some people on here recognize this....
Ooops
"Last time I looked we are part of Europe? Good to see some people on here recognize this...."
I was originally referring to Eurozone at the start of this thread 😉
Personally I like the fact that we're going our own way with the UK mountain bike scene. Too many other areas of our lives / culture are being heavily influenced by the USA.
Yeah, like all the damn WHOOOOOPPPING on TV talent shows 👿
With sorted geometry - you can make a 29er with great handling, regardless of wheel weight/size - mine has a fat front wheel with an all up weight (tyre/tube/rim/disck/etc) of 3.1kg 😀 - but when you combine all the little details of geo + rigid fork, stiff wheel - 135mm hub and symmetrical build, 55mm offset on the fork, short chainstays, you get a very responsive ride - more so that my 26" full susser.
Yes some 29ers probably do handle like a barge, not all of them though.
