futon river crossing says it best.
A lot of knowledge gained from the advertorial in MBUK has been aired.
ooOOoo - that's a brilliant clip!
I'd ask these people for a view
Dave Beeley from Big Bear Bikes
he rode most of the 2010 season on a top end Trek 26" full suspension, switched at the end of the season to a Trek FS 29er, did his results improve? ask him
(Twinkly)Dave Powell on the Ragley rigid 29er, did the dodgy barge like slow handling slow him? (then ask him about Racing Ralph's at Lee Quarry :wink:)
Dave (Minnellium) Haygarth on his scandal, did this cramp his style, did his wheels crumple on the doubles and table tops?
all these riders [b]raced[/b] 29ers on one of the more technical XC venues in the UK against 26 FS, 26 long travel hardtail, 26, short travel hardtail etc etc all will have real world views based on more than "tried it once and didn't like it"
ask Singular Sam/ Brant/ Stevo about their views on 29er geometry as they actually have 29er frames in production aimed at the UK market rather than simply clinging to the single view of someone yet to have one in production for the US market
there is plenty of room in the UK market for 29er's, the biggest restriction has been the lack of availability due to decisions made by large manufacturers/ importers who have the associated shop network based on their "view" of the market. (they should really expand their market research from the annual cup of coffee with spokebloke :wink:)
there is also plenty of life in 26er's, there isn't a "right" answer to wheel size, it always depends on the rider 🙂
Going back to the different riding styles. Here in Tenerife there is a definite difference in the type of riding enjoyed by the local riders. It seems to be split into 2 distinct camps. One is DH riding where the guys run a mix of long travel DH rigs and dubious cobbled together death traps down long DH trails. Then there are the out and out XC boys and girls who will climb for hours on gravel roads only to descend on tarmac because descending on gravel is too dangerous for them.
There seems to be no or at least very very little cross over into riding singletrack etc which is probably where the biggest "scene" is in the UK.
I think Brits are generally more independent thinking and less marketing-led. So we homebrew these oddly configured bikes that international bike companies latch on to and call "UK special project" e.g. Rocky Mountain.
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So yes I do think we make our own slant on things.
We're getting regular queries from "Eurozone" about the availability of mmmbops, so I don't think the markets are that far apart.
AWHiles didn't get it quite right with the numbers, but the thrust of what I said was there. Original 29er forks had around 38mm offset like 26" forks, and this is what created the crazy steep head angles and suspect handling from a few years back. Most of the current forks are around 46mm, which has still resulted in me needing to steepen the head angle of the bike I'm designing by 1 deg to get the trail back to similar level as the Cotic 26" bikes. This causes all sorts of other knock on effects that I didn't cover, mainly surrounding weight distribution as the front centre is shortened quite significantly, yet the rear centre (chainstay length) is increased significantly to accomodate the big wheel. This pushes the riders weight a long way further forward in the wheelbase compared to the 26" bikes, so certain measures have to be taken to try and reduce this issue. My final parting shot was that I still don't believe 46mm offset is enough and that the Fisher G2 forks with 51mm offset, and the Jones bikes with 55mm offset allow you to apply known 26" bike principles to 29" bike design. It's no accident that Fishers and Jones are very well thought of. My mates Jones felt amazing. Would love to have a longer shot on it with regular bars.
29" wheels are just different. They're possibly better for covering distance and faster, flowy riding where they carry speed. For technical stuff, I don't know yet, I've not done very tech riding on one yet. I'll let you know how my prototype feels when I get it 😉 Have to say I'm looking forward to how fast mine's likely to be down hills with some good forks and proper tyres.
GW - Member
^^ they make total sense for riding dull XC trails in a non inspiring fashion
GW - at a DH mates race this summer steve peat rocked up on the 29er tall boy, smoked everyone and drank some beer.
i`d agree not everyone is as good as SP tho.
on the flip side there are quite a few 29ers on the south downs but then the trails are fairly minceworthy.
what i dont get is this trend for long wheelbase slack 6" ht`s. if i ride a ht i want something i can throw around and is a bit nippy.
just looked at the specs of an orange 5 vs a turner 5.spot
really not a lot in it, frame and geometry wise, which therefore suggests not really.
Giant and Trek don't do a 140mm bike, both have adjustable travel etc but from the numbers given, again not heaps of difference.
Overall, there isn't that much diff TBH in terms of what is being produced, although there are differences in what the markets are demanding in terms of volumes of type of bike sold.
well I read very little of this thread but I'd like to comment on this:
So other nations don't?
Actually no they don't mark. If I take for example french people, when winter comes,bike goes in the cave and riders goes to ski stations. People turn to road riding or more wintery activities. It's been 3 weeks of rain around here and we are just waiting for it to stop to ride again, no big deal. And we're among the less weather shy. When I was in the UK I use to ride regardless of the weather, mainly because it was a constant all year long.
Same goes with spain as far as I am aware.
at a DH mates race this summer steve peat rocked up on the 29er tall boy, smoked everyone and drank some beer
not sure you can judge a bike by how well steve peat can ride it TBH iirc he is quite good on bikes
in interview [november this year] he said this
One last thing – we hear Bryceland has been trying out a Santa Cruz Tallboy 29er. How about you?
I’ve ridden one once and I’ll be ordering one this year, just as a fun bike. I can’t see me ever putting 29ers on a V10 though!
http://www.socaltrailriders.org/forum/adrenaline-factory/47671-peaty-tallboy.html
When I was in the UK I use to ride regardless of the weather, mainly because it was a constant all year long.
Even the weather goes on strike in Spain and France then must like as short working week and a Siesta 😉
jnkyard yes but it only last a couple of week 😉
I think the future of the uk riding scene is in 29ers for mile munchers and less technical riding. and 100mm to 120mm trail bikes for uk 'all mountain riders' which are slightly more relaxed than xc race full sussers- due to people starting to realise they don't need a big 5 or 6inch all mountain bike for the uk's singletrack. the sooner a lot of riders get on a bike with less travel- the easier the climbs get and the more fun the decents and singletrack gets.
I need a sit down and a brew after reading this thread
GW - at a DH mates race this summer steve peat rocked up on the 29er tall boy, smoked everyone and drank some beer.i`d agree not everyone is as good as SP tho.
well the guy did came from doing very well in XC to smoking everyone the UK in DH on a fully rigid Kona. There's absolutley no denying Peaty is one of the fastest DH riders in the world ever and being so tall should be able to handle the larger wheels a bit better than most too but it's funny you use him as an example because IMO out of the top 20 DH riders in the world right now I'd prob put Peat's old skool riding style down as the absolutley least inspiring from a spectators point of view.
Santa Cruz pay their top riders handsomly so they'd be complete idiots not to have them seen riding their latest bikes even if they were shit.
I need a sit down and a beer after watching that video.
Why should I ride when it rains, it only rains for about 30 wet days per year and you can't ride everyday. 😉
"I'd prob put Peat's old skool riding style down as the absolutley least inspiring from a spectators point of view"
Can you explain what an "old skool riding style" is, and why it's not inspiring? I'm not joking, I just don't understand what you meant.
buzz - how long have you followed DH racing? and I'll try and explain.
Love the video ooOOoo.
Not sure wheel size had much to do with Gee Atherton winning that contest though. Looks like better bike handling and maintaining flow to me.
I don't really see that much difference between us and our Euro chums, other than slight fashion differences. This vid could easily be a STW meet. Although, I agree with ivantate, in parts of mainland Europe it's probably not as well developed as a 'leisure activity' as it is in the UK.
Yeah no idea about wheels either TBH 🙂
I think Gee can just have better flow as his bike doesn't weigh more than he does.
I wouldn't worry your head thinking about why. it was just a "top Gear" style publicity stunt for RedBull.. Gee's 10yrs+ experience riding/racing the FW track Vs. Night's couple of practice runs meant in true Top Gear style there was nothing even vaguely fair about the race.
True... bit of a set-up, but great to watch 😀
"buzz - how long have you followed DH racing? and I'll try and explain."
I started watched some World Cup DH on freecaster last year and managed to see 4/6 World Cup events this season and the mens' World Champs, but that's all.
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[url= http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/mtbwelcome.htm ][b]2retro4u[/b][/url]
Marin County, Cali
I live in California. In my crowd it's about half and half 29/26 and everyone seems to be able to accomplish the same feats. We don't generally ride when it's raining because pretty soon it won't be raining. The rain gauge in my back yard shows about six inches since the beginning of October, all from four short rainy spells.
A few months ago I was riding off the top of Mount Tamalpais on my GF Rumblefish2, a 29er FS with 5" or so, down a wide but very rough trail with rocks the size of toasters. It's just the sort of thing the bike is made for and I thought I was going pretty good, and then some guy smoked me on a hard tail.
I don't think it's the bike.
Santa Cruz pay their top riders handsomly so they'd be complete idiots not to have them seen riding their latest bikes even if they were shit.
I thought the V 10 was supposed to be quite good.
If it's as shit as you say it's no wonder Peaty rode a Tallboy at a private low key gathering.
you knew exactly what I mean't but I'd imagine it'd make **** all difference what a V10 was like to you Stu.
Buzz - watch some WC DH footage from say, 1998ish and compare the riders styles (and track style too to be fair) to what you saw this season and hopefully you'll get the idea. (there will be plenty Eurosport footage on You tube)
the New School of younger DH rider is more flamboyant and stylish with many looking more ragged and on the edge.. Gracia and Pascal (some may say Palmer too) were among the few inspiring riders back to show similar style.
people starting to realise they don't need a big 5 or 6inch all mountain bike for the uk's singletrack.
I don't know why this keeps popping up.
What if you like to ride singletrack AND go on uplifts AND take your bike on hols to BC, alps etc?
Should we buy 2 or 3 bikes? of course not. A 5.5" or 6" bike is the perfect compromise for those who might not have the money, space or inclination to have a load of bikes. These bikes aren't too heavy, burdonsome to pedal or maintenance intensive anymore. I think we'll se more of them as they improve further.
Oh and I like peatys style, composed and efficient IMO.
but I'd imagine it'd make **** all difference what a V10 was like to you Stu.
Why's that then?
If you're trying to question my riding ability come back when you've been a member of a national squad representing your country at a few world championships. 😉
You DH boys think you're so Gnar. Take up MX or Enduros if you think you've got some skillz. 😛
simples when they stop making 26 and go fully 29er we have no choice in the matter and it is not that far away.
Having had a "snow day" this has been an interesting thread...
looks like i need to sell all my bikes!
Surly karate Monkey 29er-which i love as best fitting bike ever and most comfortable "all day" bike ever,its a great bikepacking tourer,
Slow on singletrack? er...no, never cant keep up with anyone,never last.
And i like a wee wheelie and i have to say best balance point bike i have ever owned for wheelies and manuals...
One One 456 with 5" pikes...cheap,reliable,use all the fork travel no probs and this i use instead of a full suss latest must have bike which i just cant afford...
Then the Surly Pugsley..designed in MN USA for sub zero winter riding, Yes there are states in the USA called Minnesota and Alaska where folk ride in winter often at -40C on snow and ice.i think thats winter conditions... with temperatures twice as cold as the UK.
I ride my fatbike on the beach...you may notice we have 1600 miles of coastline here in the UK, but it must be not cool as not in UK magazines...
Frankly i couldnt give a toss about what any UK magazine or forum says what bike we should ride, i bought each bike i own for where i live and the terrain, folk need to spend more time not worrying and just go ride there bikes and enjoy themselves 😮
singlespeedstu - Member
'but I'd imagine it'd make **** all difference what a V10 was like to you Stu.'
Why's that then?...
Don't worry Stu, GW has already told me I don't know what I'm talking about too. He's obviously an expert because he can criticise Steve Peat's riding for not being 'inspiring' enough, so he must be better than you too.
Shortly he'll accuse you of being in a niche...
Shortly he'll accuse you of being in a niche...
Being a British Team ISDE rider is quite a small niche to be in so i'd have a agree with him. 😆
Is that mountain biking stu? (honest question)
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Six_Days_Enduro [/url]
It's the word team championsips for Moto Enduro.
Great thread
I have to say well done Gary Fisher. He has pushed through two geometry changes. Longer top tube shorter stem and now greater fork offset on a 29er. I think thats pretty good going
Because as far as I'm aware you don't ride/race DH simple as that.Why's that then?
Yeah, from what you said about riding rock gardens, you honestly didn't seem to and on that count I'm still happy for you to prove me wrong.Don't worry Stu, GW has already told me I don't know what I'm talking about too.
comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point so I'll say it again.. [b]"least inspiring [u]from a spectators point of view"[/u][/b].He's obviously an expert because he can criticise Steve Peat's riding for not being 'inspiring' enough, so he must be better than you too.
It goes without saying that from a rider/racers point of view he's massively inspiring.. getting to the finish quickest is all that matters, style doesn't come into it.
anybody remember former WC DH champion Corrado Herrin? 😉
Shortly he'll accuse you of being in a niche...
how was the "Dahon around the 'Puffer course"?. 🙄
nothing more really needed saying after Peachos post on the last page TBH but you obviously want a pointless arguement whether you're right or wrong (s'pose that's what STWs here for, eh?)
Because as far as I'm aware you don't ride/race DH simple as that.
No i don't but I have enough experience of riding long travel bikes (MX/Enduro)to know how a good suspension system works.
And as far as i'm aware you've not ridden many if any 29ers for you to form an opinion. Doesn't seem to stop you trying though does it. 😉
Touche (only, I've actually ridden quite a few 29ers)
as for the opinion I aired, I suggest you also go back and read Peachos post.
"quite a few" 😆
but you obviously want a pointless arguement whether you're right or wrong
Seem to sum [b]yourself[/b] up quite well there. 😉
coastkid - Member...there are states in the USA called Minnesota and Alaska where folk ride in winter often at -40C ... with temperatures twice as cold as the UK.
no, just 15% less warm.
i am a pedant.
nah Stu, not really.
Thing is, I'm right and you know it 😉
Been thinking about our slow take-up on the 29er phenomenon in the UK, perhaps is partly down to our liking for big-volume tyres which means we partly get the advantages of bigger wheels anyway.
I switched from traditional XC sized tyres up to 2.35's a couple of years ago and definately felt a difference. ❓
bike packing/off road touring is becoming more popular here - which seems to be in parallel with the states.
also endurance racing, which seems to be understandably linked in, seems to be taking off point to point rather than 24 hr laps. Kielder 100 is ehat i'm talking about - the scene in the states is swelling year on year.
i have no idea whether they like it on the continent?
🙄 @ GW. 😉
Thing is, I'm right and you know it
In your own world you are yes 😆
Paceman - you obviously have not tried a big volume 29er tyre - 2.55" on a 35mm rim 🙂
