When I rode in the US, (Moab, Colorado & California) I saw even more On-ones than I do here, they all stay off the trails unless it's dry and without exception they made jokes about bringing their fenders when they came to visit the UK.
New Zealand on the other hand.......
That has no relevance to the OP, but someone has to agree with TJ, sometimes
Pretty funny to see people generalise the US. I've seen folks riding all sorts of diffent rigs on all sorts of terrain. From the dry rocky deserts of Utah, to the UK like riding in New England (there's a hint in the name), swamps in florida and to forests of the Northwest & Canada and Alsaka.
They're not all Californians you know! 😉
The UK is a much smaller market with much more limited access (at least compared to the West of the states) and a less diverse climate.
The riding therefore is less diverse suits more of a niche kind of bike setup.
Yes!!! my new favourite phrase...XC mincetanks
And I'd agree with your point, anything much above a 4" fork on most HTs is starting to seem OTT to me again...
We'll all be back on sensibly sized 4" forked HTs soon I reckon...
"UK stylee" of course.
'they make total sense for riding dull XC trails in a non inspiring fashion'
Well, he's right. They aren't as good in technical stuff, they don't steer as well in twisty stuff. The only thing they're good for is smoother trails and climbing since they are, in essence, hybrids.
They're for a sort of trail that doesn't really exist in the UK- those long, smooth, gently winding singletracks from the Western USA.
I think there was also some suggestion that the UK was better at DH than XC, and you had questioned that (as well as the borderline logic of clown bikes)
So, are we in the UK 'behind the curve' and will we finally 'get' 29ers in the next few years? Curious, as if it is so strong in the US, it normally follows that the Uk will adopt at some point.
IME, having spent a lot of time living and working in mainland Europe, the 'Euro' market is very heavily influenced by road racing. As such, the MTB market it is still dominated by lots of lycra and a strong XC flavour, despite the growing strength of the DH/FR scene.
Paul - XC racers go very fast up, along (and down considering their bike set-ups), 4X riders go very fast down, round corners and over jumps and obsticles from what I've witnessed most long travel hardtail riders rarely do any of these things.
GW - other than Elbry do we even have any full time competitive freeriders?
Chris Smith? By far the UK's number one pro freerider.
Makes Elbry look like he's only just progressed from stabalisers...
'they make total sense for riding dull XC trails in a non inspiring fashion'
that's teh crap geometries of most 29ers rather than the wheels themselves imo. big wheels could be good but are limited by layouts of many 29ers but yes i'd agree that they may never be the best bike for the kind of riding we think makes up typical UK trail riding.
on the long fork HT thing, it seems to be settling on 120mm for most uses. whether that's long or not i'm not sure, it depends on your perspective. but the canadians and americans gave us the first hardcore hardtail frames that we made our 'UK style' bikes from anyway. watch the original Kranked film and see where our tech-trail leanings started, a cross between large DJ frames and bikes made for where the north shore riding was going at the time. Coves, Chameleons, DS-1s and the like with 110mm bombers. not a lot different to what we tend ride now really.
there is an argument that big forks on hardtails are a fundamentally bad idea and i understand why a lot of non-uk riders simply don't get them or want them. but they are fun and we don't tend to take riding as seriously here unless it's prioritising techy trail handling - hence our XC failings vs DH success?
I'm cool with my big forked hardtail- the trails I ride often don't warrant full suspension (e.g. the Lake District, the Peak District, Laggan etc.). I'd say I wasn't a total plodder either (I got into the top run of the Mega Avalanche so I can't be that bad, though I am by no means a great DH rider). I consider them a better option than full sussers for a reasonably skilled rider as they are a lot of fun.
"they are, in essence, hybrids"
could i change that to 'they use, in essence, hybrid geometry'?
i've ridden a couple of 29ers (wildly different designs) that changed how i saw big wheels could handle. they are different types of bike to 26ers, but saying 29ers don't handle well ids like saying FS or LT HT's don't handle well if you've only ridden bad examples. 29ers are a way off having settled on good geometry basics for the kind of riding we do in the uk most of the time and have been embraced by riders who love big rides on fast, dry, flowing, smooth trails. some people have got used to riding techy stuff on them but they're mostly not ideal.
my point on this is that when / if 29ers get accepted in the uk for what we're calling uk riding, then you may be able to say they're sorted. in other words we're pretty demanding here and handling is a priority over racy low weight and speed.
is it ****!that's teh crap geometries of most 29ers rather than the wheels themselves imo
try scrubbing a 29er?
Nope!hence our XC failings vs DH success?
that's down to our excellent (and somewhat unique) DH race scene!
Having ridden a 69er and a 29er back to back, I think it's fair to square all issues at the wheels. The turn of speed of the 29er on a straight uphill compared to the 26er highlighted the 26" wheel's inadequacies for this sort of thing nicely, but the slower acceleration of the 29er out of twists and turns and the ponderous handling of both in the turns highlighted the issues of the 29" wheel. Geometry isn't the issue since both had very different geometry.
"GW - other than Elbry do we even have any full time competitive freeriders?"
Gee Atherton? i know he's officially a DHer, but look at his red bull rampage rides.
spokescycles, those are the places in the UK that do warrant FS! 🙂 but i like the way that in the uk, we're happy to make our lives more fun / difficult / simple (delete as applicable!) as we see fit. liek the alps, fun on a uk hardtail, fun on FS, just different. all good.
Compared to some places in the Highlands and deepest darkest Wales, the Lakes and the Peak especially do not warrant a bouncer for your average rider (some trails excepted).
try scrubbing a 29er?
You're right, they do take a bit longer to clean.
🙂
FFS James. 🙄
Spokescyles - just read your little essay at the top of the page (couldn't be bothered earlier) and a lot of it made me realise why I almost never visit bike shops.
Don't understand why the antagonism towards 29ers.
They seem to me to be the best wheel size if you have an all day ride to go somewhere.
If you want to play pogosticks in a [s]play ground[/s] trail centre, then small 26" wheels with full sus is obviously better.
In case you think I'm biased, I've got a full sus bike with small wheels.
[url= http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4734692941_5d839e3077_b.jp g" target="_blank">
😆
scrubbing? sorry.. i may know what you mean by another name but i'm not sure what that is.
GW, you cant say that it's the wheels alone so decisively. big wheels will never be found on a DJ bike. there is a place along the rad moves-to-road race line that you won't find big wheels, but the place they generally at now is largely down to the compromises made by designers to fit them in to a fully geared, conventional suspension-forked frame. that's the way things are and with the US market driving them they'll probably stay, but they could potentially be quite different.
spokes, ponderous handling in corners as in wheel weight, same as slower acceleration out? that's fair, light wheels makes a massive difference on a 29er, more than on a 26. but there's plenty of slack angled bikes that could handle relatively poorly in tight singletrack too, it's just that we've learned to use wide bars, short stems and roomy front ends to balance it. few have got close to that far on with 29er design yet. it's all pros, cons and balancing them out.
FFS what?
Remember of course that the populus of this forum represents the UK riding culture as a whole
Lol. I would question that.
When i was in the alps this summer, there was people from all nationalities there.
Only the brits went out when it rained!
Don't understand why the antagonism towards 29ers.
isn't it more that people can't be bothered with yet another standard?? if you've got a few bikes its nice to be able to swap bits between them, including tyres, inner tubes, or wheelsets.
I do have similar issues with these XC bikes that seem to have DH bike angles of around 65 degrees, so it's not just a problem inherent to 29ers, but the 26" wheel keeps things manageable with a super slack HA.
"I think one of the main differences is that UK riders ride in all conditions"
Bingo TJ.
We're less hung-up on categories. Our rides blend XC terrain with DH terrain, in the wet or dry. Our bike choices reflect that.
We're less hung-up on categories
That is why there are about 17 new riding niches that have been sold to the public then? 😕
"...hence our XC failings vs DH success?
Nope!
that's down to our excellent (and somewhat unique) DH race scene! "
thats kind of my point. XC race scene - dying a death. DH race scence, bigger social aspect and prioritising technical skills - well supported, popular and growing. the reasons DH racing in the UK is big are the reasons XC is not. hence why teh UK produces good DHers and few top XC riders.
there also may be a doping issue there but that's another debate )
Isn't it more that people can't be bothered with yet another standard?? if you've got a few bikes its nice to be able to swap bits between them, including tyres, inner tubes, or wheelsets
I think there's some truth in that.
HoratioHufnagel - Member
'Don't understand why the antagonism towards 29ers."
isn't it more that people can't be bothered with yet another standard?? if you've got a few bikes its nice to be able to swap bits between them, including tyres, inner tubes, or wheelsets.
Exactly.
29er wheel = 700c rims, so can use fat road tyres, cross tyres, or 29er tyres on my 29er. Swappage between bikes is much easier when the rims are all the same diameter. This is why I am getting rid of my 26" bikes - it's very inconvenient not being able to swap bits around.
So 29er should be the standard. 🙂
As Someone in the trade at a distribution level and aware of developments in Europe and in the states its quite interesting to see what's been happening
Tyre sizes for example, UK is ahead of the curve using 2.3" plus tyres for XC and trail, in continental Europe they're still very much 2.1/2.2" for XC, so, that has a knock on effect with rim widths and clearances,
Night riding is much more common in the UK, singlespeeding is fairly UK centric, 29'ers are growing massively in the US, very little impact in Europe, and, obviously, throughout most of continental europe and the US, winter riding is less common, as they have proper winters there, so they all go skiing instead 😀
Zulu-Eleven - Member
...throughout ... the US, winter riding is less common, as they have proper winters there, so they all go skiing instead
Winter riding is growing fast in the USA if the fatbike forums are anything to go by.
Oops, introduced another category to be scorned...
🙂
Never seen a 29er in the flesh either
Are you taking the mickey? 4-5 local riders round here have them, mayber more. 🙂
So we have average terrain, but ride it more than the rest.
GO UK! whoop
But PP I don't live where you live!
you can get that stable yet flickable feel on big wheels too.. it's different as the agles and balance need to be different, there's a bit more straight line stability and grip at the expense of a bit of flickability but if the wheels are lighter it can be comparable with a 26.
there's sod all reason to try to make a 29er that does what a well-evolved 26er does well already, but there's natural pros and cons of the wheel sizes that mean if you play to the strengths and the frame+fork work those strengths well, then it's not a lot different to the way that hardatils or any other types vary a bit between models.
not wanting to go into a 29-26 debate intentionally, but maybe there's something about UK riding trends and attitudes that are behind us not wanting to accept 29ers, rather than looking to see what can be done with them. we don't fear different fork lengths or rigid vs FS frames so i don't understand the more extreme reaction people have about 29" wheels - i can understand the reaction against bikes that doesn't suit our riding but a racy, 80mm forked, 110mm stem euro xc bike set-up doesn't mean we say 26" wheels are crap because we know there is choice and different ways to do it. currently we have very little choice in 29ers.
To be fair we’re generally going over and over extremes here, the Niche 29er SS crowd are not the majority nor are the IT manager on their £3K - 6” travel Dandy horses, they are extremes of the scale…
The “Typical UK trail bike” is probably a 26” wheeled, 4-5” forked, (2/3)x9 speed, hardtail, most likely with an Aluminium frame and160mm discs, this is what people can afford and justify it’s what they’ll find in many shops at various price points, and it will get you round Afan, Glentress, FOD, etc without too much fuss, you could race XC on it, you could have a pop at some DH tracks on it, it’s not a million miles from what the rest of the planet would recognise as an MTB... We ain’t that different from the rest of the world really…
29er wheel = 700c rims, so can use fat road tyres, cross tyres, or 29er tyres on my 29er. Swappage between bikes is much easier when the rims are all the same diameter. This is why I am getting rid of my 26" bikes - it's very inconvenient not being able to swap bits around.
So it only makes sense to get a 29er if you're a cyclocross rider or roadie then?? 😉
aww.. Cookeaa, you can't just go around bursting peoples bubbles like that! - there's gonna be a lot of petted lips around various offices this afternoon 😉
you can get that stable yet flickable feel on big wheels too
here's the thing.. No you ****ing can't!
for the same reasons 26" MTB will never equal 20" BMX for technical riding or even trail flow for that matter
29er wheel = 700c rims, so can use fat road tyres, cross tyres, or 29er tyres on my 29er
I hadn't actually considered that. I guess it shows that there is a sub-group of XC rider who also road rides, for whom riding a 29 makes sense.
I'm actually a lot less interested in the 29er debate though, more the issue of how the UK scene has diverged from mainland Europe and the US, and why.
The terrain and climate may have something to do with it, sure, but does the local MTB and 'cycling' media also not have a massive amount to do with it?
Edit - and I think its really interesting that DH racing is booming in the UK with most races sold out within minutes of going online.
WTF is a 'petted lip'?
😮
GW - Member
'you can get that stable yet flickable feel on big wheels too'here's the thing.. No you **** can't!
Garbage.
If you were right it would be impossible to ride a motorbike offroad with their big heavy wheels (compared to a bicycle).
Flickability all comes down to how much trail you have. You can get the same trail figure with a steep headangle as with a slack head angle. With a steep headangle you would use less offset compared to the slack headangle. There are other factors, but trail is the most important one.
GW, you can almost get it, close enough that you realise that layout is the key to a bike. as i said, no point trying to replicate what a 26" does well already, but no point writing it off just cos you've only ridden a heavy-wheeled, compromised geometry version.
when you say tech riding + trail flow, you mean tech as in style / tricks and DJ trails right? because riding a 20" wheel over rough ground is sht and we're talking about UK MTB traits and performance. if you're looking for DH/long travel and DJ inspired riding traits a 29er will prob never be your bike, but for someone looking for more all round trail perfrmance there is more potential there than the current majority of big wheel bikes achieve.
also, 'FFS' about what in your earlier post? i'm not sure what you were getting at there.
Motorbikes are not a fair analogy. It's easy to flick a bike when you have 40-50hp to boost it about with.
SpokesCycles - Member
Motorbikes are not a fair analogy. It's easy to flick a bike when you have 40-50hp to boost it about with.
I'm not talking about using the power to flick the back end out, I'm talking about the ability to pick your way through a rock garden and the like where the ability to turn the bars quickly is important.
I don't know many people who have gone back to a 26' bike from a 29er, no doubt there are a few, but it seems to me that once you have ridden a 29er, 26" wheels feel too draggy.
The terrain and climate may have something to do with it, sure, but does the local MTB and 'cycling' media also not have a massive amount to do with it?
I don’t think we have diverged as much as some think, and if we have it’s probably not due to the UK cycling media, they are merely the means by which the assorted “Big ideas” of foreign cycling companies (US/Euro/Japanese) are forced into peoples consciousnesses, I think it’s more evolution by environment:
People want to go faster down hills, then more suspension is adopted, they want to win XC races then low weight comes into the equation, they want to do a bit of everything well that’s where the inclusion/exclusion of certain bits of kit becomes more subtle and relative tradeoffs in function occur, throw Price into the mix and I think that’s how you probably come full circle back to the “Basic” 26er HT…
Over the last 20 odd years most of the changes in MTBs have been incremental, this sort of conversation will no doubt seem like cobblers in another 10 years time as the Emperor will have been through several new sets of clothes and we’ll still be riding largely similar bikes (with on extra cog on the back and yet another BB “Standard” maybe) trying to convince each other we’re living in the new golden age of the MTB and the UK is leading the world… It’s still just push bikes with slightly fatter tyres though…
