[Closed] Are UK riders moving further away from US/Euro riding trends?

To be fair we’re generally going over and over extremes here, the Niche 29er SS crowd are not the majority nor are the IT manager on their £3K - 6” travel Dandy horses, they are extremes of the scale…

The “Typical UK trail bike” is probably a 26” wheeled, 4-5” forked, (2/3)x9 speed, hardtail, most likely with an Aluminium frame and160mm discs, this is what people can afford and justify it’s what they’ll find in many shops at various price points, and it will get you round Afan, Glentress, FOD, etc without too much fuss, you could race XC on it, you could have a pop at some DH tracks on it, it’s not a million miles from what the rest of the planet would recognise as an MTB... We ain’t that different from the rest of the world really…

29er wheel = 700c rims, so can use fat road tyres, cross tyres, or 29er tyres on my 29er. Swappage between bikes is much easier when the rims are all the same diameter. This is why I am getting rid of my 26" bikes - it's very inconvenient not being able to swap bits around.

So it only makes sense to get a 29er if you're a cyclocross rider or roadie then?? 😉

aww.. Cookeaa, you can't just go around bursting peoples bubbles like that! - there's gonna be a lot of petted lips around various offices this afternoon 😉

you can get that stable yet flickable feel on big wheels too

29er wheel = 700c rims, so can use fat road tyres, cross tyres, or 29er tyres on my 29er

I hadn't actually considered that. I guess it shows that there is a sub-group of XC rider who also road rides, for whom riding a 29 makes sense.

I'm actually a lot less interested in the 29er debate though, more the issue of how the UK scene has diverged from mainland Europe and the US, and why.

The terrain and climate may have something to do with it, sure, but does the local MTB and 'cycling' media also not have a massive amount to do with it?

Edit - and I think its really interesting that DH racing is booming in the UK with most races sold out within minutes of going online.

WTF is a 'petted lip'?

😮

GW - Member
'you can get that stable yet flickable feel on big wheels too'

here's the thing.. No you **** can't!

Garbage.

If you were right it would be impossible to ride a motorbike offroad with their big heavy wheels (compared to a bicycle).

Flickability all comes down to how much trail you have. You can get the same trail figure with a steep headangle as with a slack head angle. With a steep headangle you would use less offset compared to the slack headangle. There are other factors, but trail is the most important one.

GW, you can almost get it, close enough that you realise that layout is the key to a bike. as i said, no point trying to replicate what a 26" does well already, but no point writing it off just cos you've only ridden a heavy-wheeled, compromised geometry version.

when you say tech riding + trail flow, you mean tech as in style / tricks and DJ trails right? because riding a 20" wheel over rough ground is sht and we're talking about UK MTB traits and performance. if you're looking for DH/long travel and DJ inspired riding traits a 29er will prob never be your bike, but for someone looking for more all round trail perfrmance there is more potential there than the current majority of big wheel bikes achieve.

also, 'FFS' about what in your earlier post? i'm not sure what you were getting at there.

Motorbikes are not a fair analogy. It's easy to flick a bike when you have 40-50hp to boost it about with.

SpokesCycles - Member
Motorbikes are not a fair analogy. It's easy to flick a bike when you have 40-50hp to boost it about with.

I don't know many people who have gone back to a 26' bike from a 29er, no doubt there are a few, but it seems to me that once you have ridden a 29er, 26" wheels feel too draggy.

The terrain and climate may have something to do with it, sure, but does the local MTB and 'cycling' media also not have a massive amount to do with it?

I don’t think we have diverged as much as some think, and if we have it’s probably not due to the UK cycling media, they are merely the means by which the assorted “Big ideas” of foreign cycling companies (US/Euro/Japanese) are forced into peoples consciousnesses, I think it’s more evolution by environment:

People want to go faster down hills, then more suspension is adopted, they want to win XC races then low weight comes into the equation, they want to do a bit of everything well that’s where the inclusion/exclusion of certain bits of kit becomes more subtle and relative tradeoffs in function occur, throw Price into the mix and I think that’s how you probably come full circle back to the “Basic” 26er HT…

Over the last 20 odd years most of the changes in MTBs have been incremental, this sort of conversation will no doubt seem like cobblers in another 10 years time as the Emperor will have been through several new sets of clothes and we’ll still be riding largely similar bikes (with on extra cog on the back and yet another BB “Standard” maybe) trying to convince each other we’re living in the new golden age of the MTB and the UK is leading the world… It’s still just push bikes with slightly fatter tyres though…

I get the feeling that USA is just as fragmented as anywhere else. Here (Mid-Atlantic USA) is 29er central! 90% of the bikes on the trails here are 29ers and 75% are hardtails. (The trails here are far more 'technical' than most stuff I rode in 7 Stanes/Lakes/Peaks/Dales in a different way. Trails here are tight but flowing, short sharp technical climbs, rooty in places, massively rocky in other places.) People don't ride in the wet for reasons already dealt with.

However, people who have ridden in New England, or the West Coast say 26er full sus bikes are the choice there, and it sounds pretty similar to the UK, trails are ridden all year round. The USA is a big place...

The difference in rider style between Inners/GT (my old stamping round) and here is night and day. But I wouldn't want to ride my UK bike on these trails any more than I'd want to take my SS down the north side of Nan Bield.

gavinb, i think the media here reflect the riding scene and it's then self-perpetating as new riders come into it and read the mags / websites. to generalise / risk stereotyping, we have a 'get on with it' approach and are interested in the fun less than the tech. another sterotype, the german market love lightweight and tech. their media and bikes refect that.

maybe there are cultural reasons for all this, beyond the MTB scene?

cookieaa, i think that's spot on. basic riding attitudes haven't changed in all the years i've been riding. bikes have changed more than the riders attitudes and we all go through 'bike type' cycles.

I think the media here reflect the riding scene and it's then self-perpetuating as new riders come into it and read the mags / websites. To generalise / risk stereotyping, we have a 'get on with it' approach and are interested in the fun less than the tech. Another sterotype, the German market love lightweight and tech. Their media and bikes refect that.

A very good point I think James-O

You seem to omitting a whole subset of UK riders from this debate, those who have realised that their local trails are in fact rather naff, and thus opt to regress from their 6 inch AM rig to a humble CX bike and set out to own the local trails before alcohol takes a hold and one day the find themselves rocking up at CyB and feeling rather underbiked and vunerable in the carpark prior to achieving piles the size of a bunch of grapes and forearms that are truely spinach worthy of popeye in his best steroid induced form

holy lack of punctuation batman

Qwerty: i've realised that my local trails are awesome and techy, with lots of climbing, i find a hardtail makes them easier...

(unless i'm on a bridleway - in which case you're right, a hardtail makes them almost worth riding again)

.

we have a 'get on with it' approach

which is why we ride cx bikes and hardtails and ss bikes more as you say qwerty? just for fun innit.

qwerty - Member
.

haha - excellent response!

it's an interesting debate but i think most of you are getting hung up on bike types and genres. i have 3 bikes - a 6" FS, an LT HT & a short travel SS. i have used them all for local XC hacking around in the winter/summer gloop, carrying them up mountains and blatting down the other side, trail centres, big countryside epics, jumping and DH specific sessions. they all worked fine and i always had/have a great time so not particularly bothered about whether they fit within the UK scene.

i'd like to give a 29er a proper run out but at the moment there are plenty more bikes i'd rather be throwing money at.

James/epicyclo.

go and find a 20" BMX(or kids mtb if you're worried the geometry is too different), a 26" MTB and a 29er. Try and 360 them on eafter another.

No rideable Geomtery or specific rake/trail/Headangle in the world will make the 29er spin better than the 26, or the 26 the 20.

Epi - If you want to use motorbikes in defence to your arguement go and find TJ he's prob the only one so set in his ways he might bite.

James - FFS = a massively tallented bike rider of most disciplines turning up for one weekend a year to one event does not make a full time freerider. the "Elbry" comment was entirely tongue in cheek

Cy Turner (cotic) gave a very interesting presentation at Sheffield Uni a few weeks ago,

part of the presentation was a small bit on 29er design...

here we go, in a nutshell:

one of the key factors affecting handling is 'trail' (google it), wheel size affects trail, as a frame designer, Cy needs to alter fork offset/head angle to get the same 'trail' effect with a 29er wheel vs a 26er.

sus' forks have only really been available for 29ers in the form of lengthened 26er forks (not ideal), with offsets of around 45mm. leaving frame designers with no choice but to steepen the head angle as the only way to get the same 'trail'

consequently, 29ers handled like drunk donkeys.

now, fork manufacturers are starting to make true 29er specific forks - with offsets of 50-something mm, which will allow slacker head angles to get the same 'trail' as before.

consequently, 29ers might be worth looking at. some of them even look good now.

GW, I have 3x 20" wheel bikes, several 26" wheel bikes, and 1x 29er. I have ridden them all extensively on the trails around here (yes, even the 20")

The 29er is the best bike.

Also if the argument about the weight of the wheels had any water, then motorbikes are a relevant comparison because they have heavy wheels. It is not a relevant argument though, because the wheel weight difference between a 26" and a 29" is a minor factor.

If you are interested, try reading Phil Irving or Tony Foale (motorbike - but easy reads), and Y. LeHenaff on Dynamic Stability of the Bicycle.

Oh noes not this again!
Don't waste energy on thinking about what type of bikes others ride (too much sus, too big wheels etc etc). They don't care. Not even a little bit; they'll ride whatever they want to and have just as much fun as you.

Man with firmly held conviction argues against another man with firmly held conviction: pointless deadlock ensued.

Other Man makes comment

GW, ok point understood on Gee / 'full time'. fair point not made too clearly. rider contract details aside, there are riders in the uK that can cut it at that level if required but the uk's scene, spons opps and terrain seems to support racers better than freeriders. USA / Canada may well be quite different.

anyway, fair play if you can 360 well, but i don't think more than maybe 2 or 3 people on an MTB forum like this look for 360-ability in a trail MTB. it's just not an example that disproves what i'm saying about wheel size vs geometry for XC-trail riding. 'chuckable / flickable' in a technicaly-capable trail mtb is different to a 360-able DJ bike.

are the most technically skilled riders we all ride with on 29ers? no. is that because 29ers suck technically? in 90% of cases, probably yes. does that mean no-one will ever make a good 29er for technical trail riding? of course not. there are a few, and they may well get better. the wheels themselves are only seem to be a limiting factor in the designer's aproach to the complete bike.

yeah, this is about bike attitudes in the US/Europe/UK not 29ers, but they're a good example to highlight the differences - as well as the way people write a bike off being something that perhaps all MTB scenes have in common )

'don't like'
'why not'
'just don't, not ridden one enough to understand / don' care / think it looks odd / mate says they're crap'
'ok but i like mine so maybe you should' 🙂

time to go. sorry but my job involves NOT writing bikes off and that's been an eyeopener cos i'm just as opinionated on what i like / don't as anyone, so i can have this debate with myself 🙂

I think the big forked HT thing has a lot to do with the lack of lift assistance in the UK (understandable as the hills are mostly so dinky, especially in the Midlands). I ride a LT HT because I can, with some grunting and moaning, get it to the top by pedalling and still have a lot of fun going back down. From there it's not a big step to think, ah, I'll just get rid of the XC FS bike and ride this for everything.

epi - OMFG - I have read and do understand "trail"
but it seems clear you don't seem to understand that to get the best handling out of them, off road bicycles are not ridden in the same way as motorbikes!! On an mtb the fastest most stable way through a rock garden has very little to do with being able to turn your bars quickly but if you knew what you were talking about you'd already know that.

J - being able to actually 360 well is irrelivent, it was simply an example to show you two that wheel size does actually matter in terms of "chuckability/flickability" - there's a hell of a lot more to cornering than turning the bars 😉

FWIW - I never said I didn't like 29ers. I completely "get" them but even on trails much more suited to a 29er than a 26" mtb I wouldn't want to be on one, coz I'll always find something fun/interesting to ride even on the dullest terrain.

i think we can agree that it makes a difference. and i can appreciate what makes a 'funner' 26" bike preferable to many riders on any terrain, my 26s tend to be biased that way since i was into 4x and DH on my chameleon years ago but i still loved it on all day xc hacks, i just don't do that kind of wheels off the ground riding much anymore.
However when a rider can move a 26" FS DH bike that's 38lbs around like good DHers can, and knowing how varied 29ers can feel to hop / jump / drop over day to day trail obstacles, i honestly believe that the wheel size is of minor importance compared to other factors in the bikes design for how you corner and move it around.

up to me to try to prove it sometime i guess..

some laughable thread content and some good comments between the repetitive dross through.

I think the uk still follows what happens in the usa. Whether due to fashion, effectiveness or just parts availability i am not sure. most of the homegrown brands are trying to carve a slightly different rut as there is a small demand for it by 'forward thinking riders' but mainly because you cant compete with the big companies head on for the majority of the market. showroom appeal, marketing, brand, xt rear mechs sell more bikes over here than anything else.

In mainland europe mountain biking is still a bit of a niche for road guys to play with, it is changing but still heavily influences the bikes and style.
this is changing gradually and is likely to produce some very good riders in the future.

One thing that does seem clear is that everyone has more terrain to ride on, we just use what we have effectively.

29ers, not tried one yet but will do and like the idea for some things. i have heard that germany is the only place in europe where sales are starting to take off.

anyone got a cannondale hooligan? new niche maybe. ummm i think we use the word niche too often to make ourselves feel special.

Also, if we have such special conditions and demands why is it we only produce frames (that should really be design not produce) can someone not make a super mud compatible gear system and sell loads?
The big stores also seem to take euro bikes and sell them over here far more readily than they sell our brands over there.
Thankfully cycling has the diversity that the automotive industry is losing, i hope it continues.

Going back to my post - my point was that, other than a few more 29ers coming in to the UK (as well as home grown), nothing has really changed. Forks might get a bit longer, but the HT remains, the FS is still there and so are the niches. I don't really see a 'trend' in Europe or the USA that is specific to them that we're ignoring or picking up.

As for ahwiles' post - either Cy Turner is 3 years out of date with his 'research', or you've gone astray a bit on what he said. It's a bit like saying 'suspension forks were a bit rubbish once - they are better now'. 😕

You could be right I think Ivantate.

Perhaps a big factor in the difference between the UK scene and the US/Euro scene is where we're coming from. I've run an MTB Club at the school I work at for nearly 10yrs now and invariably the kids come from BMX/skateboarding into MTB, and as such, want to play in the woods on their bikes, many moving on to downhill, dirt jump and trials. Out of the hundred or so kids I've taken out riding over the years, only 2 or 3 have moved onto road cycling (one very successfully I hasten to add). Kids coming into the sport are ultimately what are driving the UK scene.

I get the impression that in the USA and Europe especially, mountain biking is more of a niche aside from the bigger road cycling scene (perhaps why 29ers are more popular as the standard seems more familiar?). Our kids are generally not so attracted to road cycling as a sport to take up, despite our success on the track etc recently. Freeride / Downhill / Trials etc on the other hand are readily available to them in an attractive form on YouTube etc. The boys I take out are currently obsessed with Red Bull Rampage footage for example (not my cup of tea!).

Kids just want to do what they think is cool, and as new entrants onto our UK scene they are in the driving seat over the next decade.

It's a bit like saying 'suspension forks were a bit rubbish once - they are better now'.

Isn't this true though TooTall?

Surely designs improve over time as more manufacturers / designers / engineers / testers and ultimately consumers become involved. 29ers seem to be improving in this way, as have carbon frames and components etc.

Although AH seems to have quoted Cy Turner almost word for word I am sure at the end of the 29er bit he mentioned that although the fork crown offset standard has been changed for 29ers now it is only about half of what he would want to be added for the kind of riding he designs his bikes for.

Also, as he is now selling frames in the US there will have to be a 29er in the Cotic line up, what he didnt say was if it would be designed to ride as close to a big wheeled Soul or whether the rest of the bike would be designed to suit the riding dictated by the steering geometry.

a bit off topic but atleast shows that no matter how small the %age of sales you have to have a 29er in the line up to have a crack at the US market.

SpokesCycles - Member

Motorbikes are not a fair analogy. It's easy to flick a bike when you have 40-50hp to boost it about with.

You've never raced an offroad motorbike have you...

You make some quite stupid claims from time to time but that one realy made me laugh.

Paceman - the fork trail issue was dealt with a few years ago - it just takes an entrenched public a few more years to catch up.

Road cycling - the USA has a more roadie-friendly network of roads - those smooth surfaces have to be a good thing. The MTB scene in the USA is there and big - just not the coverage. They even have schools competing against each other - that has to be good. 29er has nothing to do with familiar standards - they have a lot of racers and a lot of big country riding that suits the bikes - we have a small, crowded island where we cram a lot into small spaces! I think more people just ride bikes now - I know some hardcore roadies commenting on the '******* sportif riders' being dangerous in higher Cat races - blurred edges between the niches.

Never seen a 29er in the flesh either
Are you taking the mickey? 4-5 local riders round here have them, mayber more.

Never seen anyone on a 29er round here either (W Yorks/Peaks/Calderdale)

Anyone thought about another aspect of the 29er thing? I think they will catch on more with the taller riders but at 5'7" in height I think 26" is best for me.

A bit OT but still relevent.

When I lived over in Germany in the late 90's I met up with a few m/c's and rode regularly with them over the summer/autumn. And then found that they all parked up their m/c's for winter (as they only had 'term-time' insurance). They were amazed that I kept mine insured and did in fact ride it, even if only now-and-again.

One of them worked for BMW, and it dawned on him why the vast majority of UK owners specified heated grips...

And as said by someone else, my continental friends ski/snowboard in winter, or road/CX.

Also took a German to Afan, he ran up the steep uphills - and then was surprised that we rode the downhills..., at home his riding was more about k's and meters-ascended - mostly fireroad.

I've just found some belly button fluff. Anyone else?

GW - Member
epi - ...it seems clear you don't seem to understand that to get the best handling out of them, off road bicycles are not ridden in the same way as motorbikes!! On an mtb the fastest most stable way through a rock garden has very little to do with being able to turn your bars quickly but if you knew what you were talking about you'd already know that...

Mmm, I think you've convinced me. I'll forget all the practical experimentation I have done, and recognise that my experience riding a trials bike is worthless. Irving and Foale are now fools in my eyes.

Hear me, hear me! I recant, [b]small wheels are better[/b]!

Now off to take my Dahon around the 'Puffer course.

It's got 20" wheels so with the superior insight I have gained from your knowledge that will be even better than 26", won't it?

So what size wheels does this mbike have ? 😀

Hear me, hear me! I recant, [b]small wheels are better[/b] at changing direction! and larger wheels are better for rolling over bumps in a straight line..

So now we agree you can stop being a dick about it and get back to being nicher than anyone else around your local woods.

Braaaaaaaaapppppp!!!

I'm with robdob etc, I think I've seen 1 29er in all the time I've been riding (Calderdale, West Yorks in general, NYM and regular trail centre trips etc).

I think all bikes are mint, its just that some (CX and 29ers/69ers) are a bit less mint than others (26" short travel, slack hardtails/full sussers built for ragging in the woods and continual grin inducement). But its whatever floats your boat...

easier to 360 a micro scooter than a bmx.

don't see how that makes it a better mtb though?

"Although AH seems to have quoted Cy Turner almost word for word I am sure at the end of the 29er bit he mentioned that although the fork crown offset standard has been changed for 29ers now it is only about half of what he would want to be added for the kind of riding he designs his bikes for. "

that's where the Jones bikes are rake-wise. There may well be a few more Jones-style geometry bikes over the next few years and they may catch on more than the current 29ers do here.

We'll then be moving towards a USA-born niche.

easier to 360 a micro scooter than a bmx.
don't see how that makes it a better mtb though?

That's coz you are being a bit dumb about it and trying to cause more argument, as is everyone else who can not see the reason why whoever posted about 360ing a bmx did so. The smaller the wheels size the more manoeuverable the bike, so when this thread got onto 'flick-ability' (for want of a better term) of a bike the point was to illustrate that the smaller the wheels the easier it is to manoeuver the bike through rocks and roots. It IS easier to spin a smaller wheeled bike. In the same way, freestyle skis and snowboards are shorter than their off-piste, back country counterparts as they have been designed more with spinning tricks in mind. As the topic of conversation at the time was about the merits and negatives of the 26 vs 29 wheel the poster was saying that the smaller wheel (26) would fare better. He was correct to state that a BMX would be easier to 360 than a 26/29 mtb just as you are correct to state that the micro scooter would be easier to 3 than a BMX. So you actually highlighted his point further.

What he wasn't saying was that the smaller the wheel the less rolling resistance it would have on rocks, as we all know the bigger the wheel the more inclined it will be to roll over stuff. This is why if you put a BMX against and mtb (26 or 29) on an offroad track it would lose, it would struggle to get over many of the obstacles that a bigger wheeled bike would roll over. Ever ridden a micro-scooter and flipped over the bars when you hit the smallest pebble? Neither have I, but you get the picture.

I'm taking all the "I've never seen a 29er" comments with a pinch of salt given that they're usually ridden by freakishly tall people, which means it's quite hard to tell what size their wheels are. A better yardstick would be "I've stopped seeing all those grown men riding around my local trails on children's bicycles".

Last time I looked we are part of Europe? Good to see some people on here recognize this....

Ooops

"Last time I looked we are part of Europe? Good to see some people on here recognize this...."

I was originally referring to Eurozone at the start of this thread 😉

Personally I like the fact that we're going our own way with the UK mountain bike scene. Too many other areas of our lives / culture are being heavily influenced by the USA.

Yeah, like all the damn WHOOOOOPPPING on TV talent shows 👿

With sorted geometry - you can make a 29er with great handling, regardless of wheel weight/size - mine has a fat front wheel with an all up weight (tyre/tube/rim/disck/etc) of 3.1kg 😀 - but when you combine all the little details of geo + rigid fork, stiff wheel - 135mm hub and symmetrical build, 55mm offset on the fork, short chainstays, you get a very responsive ride - more so that my 26" full susser.

Yes some 29ers probably do handle like a barge, not all of them though.

futon river crossing says it best.

A lot of knowledge gained from the advertorial in MBUK has been aired.

ooOOoo - that's a brilliant clip!

I'd ask these people for a view

Dave Beeley from Big Bear Bikes
he rode most of the 2010 season on a top end Trek 26" full suspension, switched at the end of the season to a Trek FS 29er, did his results improve? ask him

(Twinkly)Dave Powell on the Ragley rigid 29er, did the dodgy barge like slow handling slow him? (then ask him about Racing Ralph's at Lee Quarry :wink:)

Dave (Minnellium) Haygarth on his scandal, did this cramp his style, did his wheels crumple on the doubles and table tops?

all these riders [b]raced[/b] 29ers on one of the more technical XC venues in the UK against 26 FS, 26 long travel hardtail, 26, short travel hardtail etc etc all will have real world views based on more than "tried it once and didn't like it"

ask Singular Sam/ Brant/ Stevo about their views on 29er geometry as they actually have 29er frames in production aimed at the UK market rather than simply clinging to the single view of someone yet to have one in production for the US market

there is plenty of room in the UK market for 29er's, the biggest restriction has been the lack of availability due to decisions made by large manufacturers/ importers who have the associated shop network based on their "view" of the market. (they should really expand their market research from the annual cup of coffee with spokebloke :wink:)

there is also plenty of life in 26er's, there isn't a "right" answer to wheel size, it always depends on the rider 🙂

Going back to the different riding styles. Here in Tenerife there is a definite difference in the type of riding enjoyed by the local riders. It seems to be split into 2 distinct camps. One is DH riding where the guys run a mix of long travel DH rigs and dubious cobbled together death traps down long DH trails. Then there are the out and out XC boys and girls who will climb for hours on gravel roads only to descend on tarmac because descending on gravel is too dangerous for them.
There seems to be no or at least very very little cross over into riding singletrack etc which is probably where the biggest "scene" is in the UK.

I think Brits are generally more independent thinking and less marketing-led. So we homebrew these oddly configured bikes that international bike companies latch on to and call "UK special project" e.g. Rocky Mountain.
[img] [/img]
So yes I do think we make our own slant on things.

We're getting regular queries from "Eurozone" about the availability of mmmbops, so I don't think the markets are that far apart.

AWHiles didn't get it quite right with the numbers, but the thrust of what I said was there. Original 29er forks had around 38mm offset like 26" forks, and this is what created the crazy steep head angles and suspect handling from a few years back. Most of the current forks are around 46mm, which has still resulted in me needing to steepen the head angle of the bike I'm designing by 1 deg to get the trail back to similar level as the Cotic 26" bikes. This causes all sorts of other knock on effects that I didn't cover, mainly surrounding weight distribution as the front centre is shortened quite significantly, yet the rear centre (chainstay length) is increased significantly to accomodate the big wheel. This pushes the riders weight a long way further forward in the wheelbase compared to the 26" bikes, so certain measures have to be taken to try and reduce this issue. My final parting shot was that I still don't believe 46mm offset is enough and that the Fisher G2 forks with 51mm offset, and the Jones bikes with 55mm offset allow you to apply known 26" bike principles to 29" bike design. It's no accident that Fishers and Jones are very well thought of. My mates Jones felt amazing. Would love to have a longer shot on it with regular bars.

29" wheels are just different. They're possibly better for covering distance and faster, flowy riding where they carry speed. For technical stuff, I don't know yet, I've not done very tech riding on one yet. I'll let you know how my prototype feels when I get it 😉 Have to say I'm looking forward to how fast mine's likely to be down hills with some good forks and proper tyres.

GW - Member
^^ they make total sense for riding dull XC trails in a non inspiring fashion

GW - at a DH mates race this summer steve peat rocked up on the 29er tall boy, smoked everyone and drank some beer.

i`d agree not everyone is as good as SP tho.

on the flip side there are quite a few 29ers on the south downs but then the trails are fairly minceworthy.

what i dont get is this trend for long wheelbase slack 6" ht`s. if i ride a ht i want something i can throw around and is a bit nippy.

just looked at the specs of an orange 5 vs a turner 5.spot

really not a lot in it, frame and geometry wise, which therefore suggests not really.

Giant and Trek don't do a 140mm bike, both have adjustable travel etc but from the numbers given, again not heaps of difference.

Overall, there isn't that much diff TBH in terms of what is being produced, although there are differences in what the markets are demanding in terms of volumes of type of bike sold.

well I read very little of this thread but I'd like to comment on this:

So other nations don't?

Same goes with spain as far as I am aware.

at a DH mates race this summer steve peat rocked up on the 29er tall boy, smoked everyone and drank some beer

in interview [november this year] he said this

One last thing – we hear Bryceland has been trying out a Santa Cruz Tallboy 29er. How about you?
I’ve ridden one once and I’ll be ordering one this year, just as a fun bike. I can’t see me ever putting 29ers on a V10 though!

When I was in the UK I use to ride regardless of the weather, mainly because it was a constant all year long.

jnkyard yes but it only last a couple of week 😉

I think the future of the uk riding scene is in 29ers for mile munchers and less technical riding. and 100mm to 120mm trail bikes for uk 'all mountain riders' which are slightly more relaxed than xc race full sussers- due to people starting to realise they don't need a big 5 or 6inch all mountain bike for the uk's singletrack. the sooner a lot of riders get on a bike with less travel- the easier the climbs get and the more fun the decents and singletrack gets.

I need a sit down and a brew after reading this thread

GW - at a DH mates race this summer steve peat rocked up on the 29er tall boy, smoked everyone and drank some beer.

i`d agree not everyone is as good as SP tho.

well the guy did came from doing very well in XC to smoking everyone the UK in DH on a fully rigid Kona. There's absolutley no denying Peaty is one of the fastest DH riders in the world ever and being so tall should be able to handle the larger wheels a bit better than most too but it's funny you use him as an example because IMO out of the top 20 DH riders in the world right now I'd prob put Peat's old skool riding style down as the absolutley least inspiring from a spectators point of view.

Santa Cruz pay their top riders handsomly so they'd be complete idiots not to have them seen riding their latest bikes even if they were shit.

I need a sit down and a beer after watching that video.

Why should I ride when it rains, it only rains for about 30 wet days per year and you can't ride everyday. 😉

"I'd prob put Peat's old skool riding style down as the absolutley least inspiring from a spectators point of view"

Can you explain what an "old skool riding style" is, and why it's not inspiring? I'm not joking, I just don't understand what you meant.

buzz - how long have you followed DH racing? and I'll try and explain.

Love the video ooOOoo.

Not sure wheel size had much to do with Gee Atherton winning that contest though. Looks like better bike handling and maintaining flow to me.

I don't really see that much difference between us and our Euro chums, other than slight fashion differences. This vid could easily be a STW meet. Although, I agree with ivantate, in parts of mainland Europe it's probably not as well developed as a 'leisure activity' as it is in the UK.

Yeah no idea about wheels either TBH 🙂
I think Gee can just have better flow as his bike doesn't weigh more than he does.

I wouldn't worry your head thinking about why. it was just a "top Gear" style publicity stunt for RedBull.. Gee's 10yrs+ experience riding/racing the FW track Vs. Night's couple of practice runs meant in true Top Gear style there was nothing even vaguely fair about the race.

True... bit of a set-up, but great to watch 😀

"buzz - how long have you followed DH racing? and I'll try and explain."

I started watched some World Cup DH on freecaster last year and managed to see 4/6 World Cup events this season and the mens' World Champs, but that's all.

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Marin County, Cali

I live in California. In my crowd it's about half and half 29/26 and everyone seems to be able to accomplish the same feats. We don't generally ride when it's raining because pretty soon it won't be raining. The rain gauge in my back yard shows about six inches since the beginning of October, all from four short rainy spells.

A few months ago I was riding off the top of Mount Tamalpais on my GF Rumblefish2, a 29er FS with 5" or so, down a wide but very rough trail with rocks the size of toasters. It's just the sort of thing the bike is made for and I thought I was going pretty good, and then some guy smoked me on a hard tail.

I don't think it's the bike.

Santa Cruz pay their top riders handsomly so they'd be complete idiots not to have them seen riding their latest bikes even if they were shit.

I thought the V 10 was supposed to be quite good.

If it's as shit as you say it's no wonder Peaty rode a Tallboy at a private low key gathering.