Think Jockeys, Football kit, even old school cycling kit...
That's why I like this one.
You don't need to get close enough to read the text, it's recognisable as soon as it comes in to view.
[img] 
[/img]
And yes, I have thought about doing a mark 2 version of the Vegan Cyclists kit for improved visibility.
Possibly reversing the green and black and using a brighter green.
it's recognisable as soon as it comes in to view.
What language is that bit down the middle? Is it Arabic or Cyrillic?
what makes the Singular jersey recognisable is the colour, and combination of colours, you don't necessarily need to see the logo and lettering once you know it's Singular, the visual imprint has been made
they have a particular blue, with that cream and red, a mix that no-one else has, which is why it works
that's design for you
If another manufacturer's team wore blue jerseys with their logo in red on a cream stripe, that would be plagiarism, or copyright infringement.
If they put some stars on their jerseys, it wouldn't.
Possibly reversing the green and black and using a brighter green.
This is why non-designers shouldn't try to design; or they may design in the knowledge that they're not designers and the results will generally be quite bad.
G
If another manufacturer's team wore blue jerseys with their logo in red on a cream stripe, that would be plagiarism, or copyright infringement.
So singular are guilty of plagiarism then as there must be loads of pale blue/cream/red striped jerseys going back through cycling history, what do you think were the visual references for that jersey?!? Are you really that naive?
And as for copyright infringement? Maybe you should read up out what design rights, copyright, trade marks, intellectual property etc are
]MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member
If another manufacturer's team wore blue jerseys with their logo in red on a cream stripe, that would be plagiarism, or copyright infringement.If they put some stars on their jerseys, it wouldn't.
it's hard to copyright a combination of colours, or a pattern, but you can easily plagiarise something
as in the Rapha/Torm jersey instance someone can copy your 'Thing' that's been around long enough for people to recognise it as your 'Thing' and you can be a bit peeved that someone's nicked your 'Thing' and do something about it.
it also works with stars on a jersey
and from the other side, any designer with any integrity will say, 'that looks a bit like that, i won't do that, i'll try a bit harder'
MrSmith, maybe Ananichoola should read up on design rights as well. 😉
JoBs last point in his post there ^ is significant. To make that call you need to understand what you're looking at, what it means as much as simply what it is.
it's hard to copyright a combination of colours
Didn't Orange (the phone company) copyright orange (the colour) and try to stop Easyjet using it?
These people are good, just make sure the other side end up paying your costs 😉
[url= http://www.swanturton.com ]http://www.swanturton.com[/url]
Only in relation to phones, easyjet wanted to move into telecoms and start easyphones like they did with easyrentacar etc, except Oranges Brand/logo is that colour, hence they could argue it was too similar to me in the same market. There are official lists of markets where you can/can't overlap you logos, so you could set up Meerkat bikes and have a Russian Meerkat logo, and that would be fine, as long as you didn't move into financial services.
There was no problem therefore with an airline and a phone company using the similar logo's.
Other similar cases Sunday BMX and Sunday road bikes, the latter became Sabath. And Superstar BMX and Superstar components, although I've no idea how the latter gets away with it.
Designers/artists/photographers/musicians etc borrow and are inspired by others in their field.
Just recently I shot this cover image for a magazine, it's a chemex coffee maker so I wanted to do a stylised shot a bit like a chemistry lab
[img] 
?v=1403557319[/img]
A few months later this shot appeared in a mens fitness magazine:
[img] 
[/img]
Did I wage a shitty twitter campaign? Phone the mag and demand some kind of recompense? Find out who the photographer/writer was and demand an explanation? No, was slightly bemused then flattered and carried on with my day as there really is no point getting your knickers in a twist about some ephemeral printed matter that's forgotten in a couple of months. Plus I have probably shot stuff myself that is very similar to others work, I may not have actually seen the other work but those commissioning me have and then briefed me to shoot something similar.
On the Team Jersey thing, I thought it was only important that you could recognise your team mates in a bunch or peleton so details like font size are fairly irrelevant.
I appreciate that sponsors might not always agree.
On the Team Jersey thing, I thought it was only important that you could recognise your team mates in a bunch or peleton so details like font size are fairly irrelevant.
Also in photos crossing the finishing line in first place!
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Memberit's hard to copyright a combination of colours
Didn't Orange (the phone company) copyright orange (the colour) and try to stop Easyjet using it?
That's trademarking by the way, not copyright - you don't actively copyright anything, the right exists as soon as the "work" is created. So it would still (likely) a breach of the copyright in that Singular jersey above to for example replicate the design of it but with different wording.
Not the same as Orange trademarking the use of orange (which by the way is very hard to do and relies on sustained use on a widely recognisable level - [url= http://www.thelawyer.com/news/practice-areas/intellectual-property-news/supreme-court-refuses-cadburys-permission-to-appeal-colour-purple-trademark/3018814.article ]even Cadbury's couldn't manage it with purple[/url]).
Here is AnnaCoonda's new designer cycling sunglass to match her unique cycling top.
[img][URL= http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff215/sputnik_photos/ScreenShot2014-10-28at122132_zps3408114b.pn g" target="_blank">
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff215/sputnik_photos/ScreenShot2014-10-28at122132_zps3408114b.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL][/img]
The way I understand is that Ana was asked for some design ideas for cycle tops, she showed them her ideas with stars. Wiggle then didn't use her for the designs but some how came up with an idea that just happened to have stars on. So while it's not her exact design, they seem to have gone back and said "Hey! We seen some cracking ideas with stars on looked a bit like this, can you do that for us?".
That would surely piss anyone off.
It would if the stars were the same size, same colour and arranged in a similar pattern, but they're not are they, so we go back to my earlier question; Are Wiggle now forever banned from using stars on any jersey?
As an aside, all the star patterned stuff is showing as out of stock.
Is that because it's such a brilliant, original design that it sold out within days?
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/?s=blok
It would if the stars were the same size, same colour and arranged in a similar pattern, but they're not are they,
Not too far off I thought which is the point that you can't grasp.
As an aside, all the star patterned stuff is showing as out of stock.
Is that because it's such a brilliant, original design that it sold out within days?
Or they've withdrawn if from sale whilst this is going on.
OK then, so how far off would they have to be to avoid being considered a copy?
Are Wiggle now forever banned from using stars on any jersey?
I think there's more to it that that. There are more similarities. e.g. The stars in the two tops are substantially similar sizes, they could have been millions of 5mm ones, or hundreds of 1cm ones but there aren't, theres a similar number, and they are a similar variation in sizes between the two tops. They are both very light colours on a very dark background... and so on.
Everyone's been posting pics of "things with stars on", but they look quite different to both the DHB and Anna/Ana top.
very light colours on a very dark background
Er, isn't that kind of the point with stars, at least where they are used in large numbers as a sort of representation of the night sky?
OK then, so how far off would they have to be to avoid being considered a copy?
Horatio has answered that one. I've no doubt others have amongst the many posts on here.
Er, isn't that kind of the point with stars, at least where they are used in large numbers as a sort of representation of the night sky?
Neither top is a representation of the night sky, they are both using five point stars for decorative purposes only (the top is called "superstar" i believe, rather than "stars of the night sky" or something). Replace them with triangles if you like, the argument that they are similar would be the same.
Can TJ be let back just for this thread please?
I don't think anyone is claiming Anna invented the idea of putting stars on jerseys any more than Alec Issigonis invented the idea of putting a transverse engine in a car or James Dyson invented cyclonic filtration so we probably have enough pictures of star emblazoned jerseys now.
NEVER!*
[img] 
[/img]
*Sorry for the delay. Had stuff to do.
OK then, so how far off would they have to be to avoid being considered a copy?
Just use a different arrayed/scaled shape?
[img] 
[/img]
This cycling fashion design is dead hard you know...
Graham - initially I thought you were struggling with the vagaries of copyright law. I now realise, on reading your later posts, that the whole concept of creativity itself is clearly as mysterious and inexplicable to you as astrophysics is to me
One might thing this place is full of engineers....
One might thing this place is full of engineers....
Yeah, those IT ones who don't actually make anything.
One might thing this place is full of engineers....
Oi, I resemble that comment (and yes, copyright is a big deal in engineering too)
thisisnotaspoon - MemberI dunno, I kinda think MTG got railroaded into that position, his initial assertion that cycling jerseys on the whole didn't seem to be 'designed' was (IMO) fair enough in relation to the asthetics.
On the other hand:
Technical development of fabrics
Cut and fit
Stitching selection
Functional stuff like zips and pocketsAll 'designed' (or maybe better termed 'engineered' if we were to give it a distinction), and most people will happily pay more for X jersey over Y jersey because it has some tangible improvement. But in terms of asthetic design, most cycling kit swings wildly between 'explosion in the ADHD factory' and 'boring'. Very little seems to ever be 'designed' by someone competent.
Basicly, I think a lot of cycling kit is 'designed' by the engineers as an afterthought.
All this arguing over designs reminds me why I always ride nude
So while it's not her exact design, they seem to have gone back and said "Hey! We seen some cracking ideas with stars on looked a bit like this, can you do that for us?".That would surely piss anyone off.
Except that's what they said did NOT happen. They say the clothing team who visited her didn't have any contact with the design team. Now you can assert that is only their word but if it's proven false they'd be a laughing stock.
From my PoV, she seems to have found two items in her range that have elements that are in the new jersey and made the accusation. Neither of them seems to bear more than a passing similarity to the Wiggle jersey in my eyes.
As an aside, why would you launch the attack on Friday afternoon, only email Wiggle almost 8 hours later then continue going on about it over a bloody weekend. A professional would at least try to resolve it before pursuing the nuclear option. Even if she is right, she comes across badly in this anyway; someone you wouldn't want to do business with.
[quote=MrSmith]Yeah, those IT ones who don't actually make anything.
Other than, you know, software on pretty much every device you use every single day. And the devices those connect to. And so on. It's not tangible like a chainring but it's certainly "made"
Nah, this is a proper made IT puter. 🙄
[img] 
[/img]
Is it possible to ban people on the grounds of repeated blatant fuddery?
[i]Dictionary slang - fuddery - A collection of activities in which fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) is spread. See Wikipedia Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt.[/i]
There would be no forum.
That would be preferable to this circular nonsense!
So MrSmith (remember to elongate the vowels), a character from the Matrix, is accusing the I.T. industry of not creating anything via the medium which he accused of not being created/creative
So MrSmith (remember to elongate the vowels), a character from the Matrix, is accusing the I.T. industry of not creating anything via the medium which he accused of not being created/creative
That's all lies. I didn't accuse the IT industry of anything. Why are you accusing me of something I didn't say?
I have nothing to do with the matrix trilogy or characters depicted in those motion pictures either.
All this arguing over designs reminds me why I always ride nude
[img] 
[/img]
Maybe it is just me but I rather thought that the Wiggle one's 'inspiration' was the American flag. Hence the stars'n'stripes albeit bastardised in a different colour. That is primarily why I don't see it as a ripoff. I also think that Wiggle's reply is reasonable and plausible, although they could of cour be lying through their teeth.
I would say that the majority of reasonable people being as objective as they could would agree that there are similarities between the two designs. Whether or not there was inspiration or worse that led to that similarity we will likely never know, and I would guess will never be tested in a claim (if AG has any sense).
binners - MemberA mate I went to uni with, on the same graphics course as me, went into fashion, and is now the senior designer at a major label. He designs the clothing, particularly t shirt prints. He earns a massive 6 figure salary, and is regularly dangled even bigger salaries by other high street brands trying to poach him
Why do you think they do this? Because... well... they just like things to look pretty? Or because he's a shit hot 'designer', and his stuff sells by the thousands of units, making them a fortune?
Is this your classmate, binners? 😆
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5586/14796919773_931ca60c23_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5586/14796919773_931ca60c23_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/oxy5Jr ]The Original Wonder Woman[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/34544977@N00/ ]trev2005[/url], on Flickr
[quote=HoratioHufnagel ]I think there's more to it that that. There are more similarities. e.g. The stars in the two tops are substantially similar sizes, they could have been millions of 5mm ones, or hundreds of 1cm ones but there aren't, theres a similar number, and they are a similar variation in sizes between the two tops. They are both very light colours on a very dark background... and so on.
Everyone's been posting pics of "things with stars on", but they look quite different to both the DHB and Anna/Ana top.
Hmm, dhb one has some very small stars on which the AN doesn't, hence the size variation comparison fails; CBA to count the number of stars, but they certainly look denser on the dhb top - if there are a similar number then that's because there is also a significant difference in the amount of the top with stars on; the USA top on page 1 (along with a lot of the other tops pictured) have white stars on a background of similar shade to the AN top - the dhb one has non-white stars on a much darker background.
Though the real kicker is that the distinctive design feature of the AN top is the "random" pattern of differently sized stars. This is indeed something different to all of the other tops people have posted [b]including[/b] the dhb one.
So I'm afraid the suggestion that the star pattern of the dhb top is clearly derived from the star pattern of the AN top fails at a very basic level.
[quote=theflatboy ]I would say that the majority of reasonable people being as objective as they could would agree that there are similarities between the two designs.
Yes, they both have stars on, they both have stars of different sizes. I think that's about it.
She seems to have been quiet since Wiggle's new press release. Taking legal advice or just given up, I wonder
WTF is going on with Wonder Womans pants? Looks more like a nappy and a pretty full one at that.
On the Ana/DHB tops question the DHB one is much better looking IMO.
1. Company contacts you regarding coming up with some 'concepts' for them
2. You spend days of your time coming up with ideas*
3. You present them to said company, and they say they'll get back to you
4. Nothing
5. After chasing them up you may get some vague statement about 'deciding not to proceed with the project'
6. Designs appear that are identical to yours, just slightly tweaked in some half arsed way to make it 'different'
I turned down another free “pitch” “opportunity” recently… it was easy once I started recalling all the times the above has happened after past pitches.
Any company worth working for will agree to pay for initial ideas, even if they then choose to either ignore them, or get someone in house to work them up into something different/better/onbrand, without any more involvement from you.
Wiggle are turning over more than £150 million a year now.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs, they can afford [s]better[/s] lawyers so unless they decide to make a bit of an about face on this due to social media pressure I suspect this will go quiet now.