[Closed] Any design lawyers on the forum? AnaNichoola & Wiggle top uncanny similarities.

Viviene Westwood also did the stars design, not sure where the idea for that came from or who did it first.

Scotjohn, is this a game where we have to guess what the product is?

I'll go for [url= http://www.deltagroundanchors.co.uk/ ]Delta ground anchors[/url].
Am I warm?

Years ago, @pple were in talks with the company about 'licensing' the hypertext product we had, for sale in retail market. All went quiet, then out came HyperCard, bundled with every Macintosh... 🙁

Happens all the time, not just in fashion..

Good to see they appear to be doing the right thing.

Just because something might not be legally wrong, doesn't make it right.

I suppose it must be a bit upsetting when you think that being able to colour between the lines makes you a "designer", only to have your bubble burst when you realise you are not the only person to think of printing stars on a cycling jersey.

Are people seriously going to boycott Wiggle over this?
What's the alternative?
Wiggle had someone pitch a rather unimaginative design to them and they didn't take it up.
Now they can then never sell a jersey that's got stars on it, in any shape, size or pattern, because they will get accused of copying it.
Is that how it works?

Is that how it works?

[img] [/img]

Ah, the classic "I'm too dull to understand the question, it's easier to accuse someone of trolling than try to answer it" STW response.

So, how different would Wiggles stars have to be to avoid accusations of plagiarism, or is really no stars ever, whatever the size or shape?

No. I'm going with troll. But you can try to convince me its the wrong choice.

This is pretty offensive and it shows either a lack of respect or understanding for design:

when you think that being able to colour between the lines makes you a "designer"

if a "designer" comes up with the idea of a jersey with stars on it, which let's face it, any five year old could have thought of

A bit of both I suppose. A lack of respect caused by a lack of understanding.
As I see it, designing a shirt with stars on is closer to a children's art class than it is to, say, a proper designer like Alex Issigonis designing a transverse engine front wheel drive car.
Explain to me where I've gone wrong.

Wouldn't you say that Alex Issigonis was more engineer than designer?

Really?

They're both designers, just different kinds of designers (and I'd say someone like Alex whatshisface is more a engineer (Edit: like CFH said)). You can argue all you want about that, and get your knickers in a twist that fashion "designers" aren't worthy of the label, but that's the label applied to their profession.

Where do you feel on graphic designers? Web designers? They don't really come up with a tangible product, surely that's even worse?

Explain to me where I've gone wrong.

But I'm on the fence over this one generally, I agree that stars on a jersey / t-shirt etc is hard to claim a right to and design ideas evolve naturally and similarities crop up all the time, designers often use similar sources for influence. It's the link that's been suggested between the 2 companies that's more the point and that's for them to work out.

Does AnaNichoola even exist anymore, their website doesn't work for me?

Her stars jersey design was on the internet over a year ago:

[img] [/img]

From Facebook:

Hi friends of Wiggle.
As promised, following our internal investigation here is our statement regarding Anna Glowinski.
At Wiggle we pride ourselves on our integrity, fairness and transparency. Therefore we have taken the claim made by Anna Glowinski (through Facebook on Friday 24th October 2014) that we have plagiarised one of her designs for our new dhb ‘Superstar’ Jersey very seriously.
After conducting a detailed and thorough internal investigation we have concluded that no plagiarism has occurred and that no designer employed by us (directly or indirectly) has broken any of our policies or, more importantly, contravened our values.
We categorically do not participate in or condone plagiarism under any circumstances. This is a zero tolerance policy for us. Our review gives us full confidence in our internal processes and the integrity of our staff in ensuring that this could not happen. We thank our colleagues for their openness and support in resolving this issue in a timely manner.
As this story is in the public domain, for our customers’ information and on behalf of our hard working colleagues that have been affected by this story, we layout our key findings below:
• On 17/1/2013, Anna Glowinski met with members of our Cycle Clothing Buying team at the London Bicycle Show at Excel.
• On 24/1/2013, Anna Glowinski sent a proposal to our Cycle Clothing Buying team regarding the possibility of her designing an exclusive collection for Wiggle.
• On 12/7/2013 our Cycle Clothing Buying team met with Anna to discuss this potential collaboration.
• On 7/8/2013, having reviewed Anna’s proposal, our Cycle Clothing Buying team emailed Anna, politely declining to range the product and sharing our feedback with her.
• On 21/7/2014, following her resignation from AnaNichoola, Anna Glowinski contacted our Cycle Clothing Buying team again, enquiring if there was the possibility of her working for Wiggle. We considered this kind offer carefully, but again decided to decline this proposal. No designs or products were discussed in these subsequent communications.
• It is important to highlight that our Cycle Clothing Buying team (based in Portsmouth) work independently from our dhb Design Team (based in London). There has never until this investigation been a conversation between these two teams at Wiggle regarding Anna Glowinski or AnaNichoola.
• Therefore it is unsurprising that in parallel (and unrelated to) the conversations and meetings between Anna and our Cycle Clothing Buying Team, our London based dhb Design team were independently working on our Autumn/Winter 2014 range, including our ‘Superstar’ Jersey. We register the intellectual property of all of our designs and to do this must save all of the ‘inspiration materials’ and initial ‘draft designs’. We can confirm with confidence by reviewing this audit trail, that the dhb Design team had no knowledge of any conversation with Anna Glowinski, nor any sight of her designs. Additionally, there had been no communication between our Portsmouth Cycle Clothing Buying Team and our London dhb Design Team relating to this new range.
• The inspiration for the Superstar Jersey (and indeed the other designs in our dhb Blok range, which it forms part of) involved many influences, including national flags and jockey jerseys – absolutely none of which could be traced from AnaNichoola or Anna Glowinski. To be clear the dhb Design team have never been in contact with Anna Glowinski or AnaNichoola Ltd at any stage.
We have shared this statement with Anna before publishing and have offered to meet up and take her though our design process and all of our inspiration material. We appreciate that the coincidence of the designs might have been puzzling for her, though there are so many designs in the marketplace today that it is unsurprising that these similarities coincidently appear from time to time. We wish Anna every success in her new endeavors.
We would also like to take this opportunity to reassure our loyal customers that we, as ever, stay true to the core ethics and principles that have led to our success to date and thank them for their continued support and custom.
Thanks for reading.
Wiggle.

[i]sigh[/i] Another conspiracy theory bites the dust.

So will all the 'disgruntled of the internet' posters be back buying from them again now then?

[img] [/img]

"My God... It's full of stars... "

- Wiggle boss opening the design inspiration folder earlier today 😀

What a load of cock.

The opening line 'following the claim of'

Bet they were pissed that she went on social media first and resolved to come out fighting.

I wont be shopping at wiggle.

A combative wiggle. Nice.

I wont be shopping at wiggle.

A combative wiggle. Nice.

*listens to the grisly sound of loud splats as half a dozen senior Wiggle execs take off from the window ledge*

I wont be shopping at wiggle.

A combative wiggle. Nice.

What should they do then, if their version of events is accurate?

What should they do then, if their version of events is accurate?

MrSalmon the tone is both formal and on the attack. Tbh there are so many better competiyors out there that their response helps put a negative feel and spin around the whole event. Its hardened their brand in my eyes anyway.

MrSalmon the tone is both formal and on the attack.

I find it refreshing in an age of trial by social media that Wiggle haven't adopted the "Innocent Smoothie" style of slushie internet correspondence in response to an accusation that they weren't given the chance to discuss privately.

This happens regularly in many industries

Years ago my fledgling suspension frame company was approached by a well known Northern fruit-themed bike company with a view to us selling our designs. Our riders had been spotted at an NPS DH doing very competitive runs.

We declined but crude prototypes appeared at the next DH race, until the realisation that we did not own the rear suspension design but were licensing it from a well known American company (who ended up selling to Specialized)

No further communication from my company but the prototypes were not seen again....

Sounds like she's just pissed off because wiggle wouldn't give her a job,its just stars on a cycling top,hardly original is it.

*listens to the grisly sound of loud splats as half a dozen senior Wiggle execs take off from the window ledge*

Grisly splats? All I heard is whooping and hi-5s.

[img] [/img]

The wiggle response makes me more suspicious, not less, the Ana Nichoola stars jersey was a big success for a small brand.

It would be one thing to say 'it was on the inspiration board, along with hundreds of other things', its quite another to say 'Ana who?' while you've been negotiating with the designer. Google search for 'womens stars cycling jersey brings it up on the first page but we're to believe Wiggles design team didn't look?

+1

[quote=MrSynthpop ]Google search for 'womens stars cycling jersey brings it up on the first page
It does today, because everyone has been googling it 🙄

[quote=MrSynthpop ]It would be one thing to say 'it was on the inspiration board, along with hundreds of other things', its quite another to say 'Ana who?' while you've been negotiating with the designer.

Good job they didn't say that then. Did you actually read their statement, where it explained the separation between the team designing the dhb kit and the people who'd spoken with Anna, and that therefore none of the discussions with Anna had any input to the designs? Feel free to suggest they're lying if you want, but they quite clearly explain the lack of direct influence.

Has anybody yet found whether Anna has any tin foil hat designs for you lot?

Good job they didn't say that then. Did you actually read their statement, where it explained the separation between the team designing the dhb kit and the people who'd spoken with Anna, and that therefore none of the discussions with Anna had any input to the designs? Feel free to suggest they're lying if you want, but they quite clearly explain the lack of direct influence.

Sorry, I was implying that designers often do research before roughing, developing and finalising work, usually that involves looking into prior art and considering influences both inside and outside of the marketplace that could impact on the final design - mood boards and the like. Colours, fabric swatches, styles etc.

I was expressing surprise that Wiggles 'london based' design team managed to 100% miss the widely available Ana Nichoola range that was sold in Harrods as well as a bunch of other bike shops up and down the country, was on national TV's only cycling show, was on display at multiple national bike shows etc

Sounds like she's just pissed off because wiggle wouldn't give her a job,its just stars on a cycling top,hardly original is it.

Think Wiggle have responded well to this. The Wiggle top is quite different from the design Ana did.

MrSynthpop - Member
The wiggle response makes me more suspicious, not less, the Ana Nichoola stars jersey was a big success for a small brand.

It would be one thing to say 'it was on the inspiration board, along with hundreds of other things', its quite another to say 'Ana who?' while you've been negotiating with the designer. Google search for 'womens stars cycling jersey brings it up on the first page but we're to believe Wiggles design team didn't look?

agreed,
but what else were wiggle going to say though ?...... the threat of lawyers and damage to their reputation

and if I was her id be suspicous too, personally i thnk the statement is BS and theres a designer at DHB right now feelng a little sweaty under the collar about what hes been up to

ultimately its their word against hers cant see itll go anywhere

Good lawyers! The Wiggle response gives the impression that it is a denial that the design was based on the existing work, but doesn't actually say that. It says that their design team didn't see the new designs passed to them, and that they were influenced by other prior art, and that prior art was not linked to the designer in question. It does not deny that the starting point of the design may well have been, “make us one like that, but improve on it in some way”. Fashion designers pretty much have to live with this the whole time I imagine.

Think Wiggle have responded well to this. The Wiggle top is quite different from the design Ana did.

It's very much like it, but I think they've improved on it. I'd be surprised if it was developed without seeing the designer's existing work first though, wouldn't you?

and if I was her id be suspicous too, personally i thnk the statement is BS and theres a designer at DHB right now feelng a little sweaty under the collar about what hes been up to

You think the route to market goes Designer > Shop Floor? Many other people have a hand in getting their kit out, and I doubt any are particularly sweaty

It's a jersey with stars on it, hardly groundbreaking. Is she going to sue everyone who makes a jersey with stars on it?

I'd never heard of this designer before, in fact, I didn't even know there was such a thing as cycling kit designers.
However, this "...[i]Ana Nichoola range that was sold in Harrods[/i]..." tells me everything I need to know. This is all about getting free publicity, regardless of the outcome with Wiggle.

I suspect there's a bit of Madeleine McCann Syndrome going on as well.
How much outrage would there be if Wiggle had stolen (or not stolen, as the case may be) a design from an ugly bloke from Hong Kong rather than a pretty white girl?

...in fact, I didn't even know there was such a thing as cycling kit designers

If I was a cynic, I'd say you're just being wilfully obtuse.

Well it's nice that it's all resolved then, the company accused of plagiarism has had a look round at a few things and decided that they defiantly didn't. Should save a lot of time in court if we can resolve things like that.
"Did you do that?"
"No."
"OK then"

I'd not expect them to admit to it on social media if they did.

Well, obviously [i]someone[/i] designs the patterns on cycling kit, I just didn't realise it was a full time job.

Looking at the two AN jerseys on the first page and the dhb offering it seems obvious that they've used her designs to create it. Totally amazed some people can't see it 😯
But really, wiggle-dhb and a designer label sold in Harrods ! I can't see much of a crossover in sales. Bit like all the Primark stuff inspired by major fashion house designs.

[quote=taxi25 ]Looking at the two AN jerseys on the first page and the dhb offering it seems obvious that they've used her designs to create it. Totally amazed some people can't see it

We can't see it because the only similarity is the use of stars and the use of stripes - design features which have appeared on cycling kit many many times before Anna ever designed anything. Those seeing the similarity appear not to be able to see past them both having stars on, a totally non-unique design. The stripe bit also bears no similarity apart from the use of horizontal lines.

Those who are still convinced one is based on the other, maybe you could explain why the dhb one is more similar to the AN one than any of the other starry tops which have been posted on this thread - other designs which actually have a regular geometric pattern just like the dhb top and unlike the AN top.