[Closed] Another shop is biting the dust.

I love the threaded rod and washer kit people make up to fit headsets, that I've used on umpteen bikes with no drama or issue.

DrP

Well done Dr P, guess you manage where others don't personally having used many methods the Park tool headset press is one of the easiest I've used. I've also made the walk of shame to the shop to sort the things that went wrong, always more than getting it done properly...

to be fair - i dont think its the tool choice so much as the user.

ive seen headset cup where the lower lip has been folded by folk trying to press in using the "bearing cup" to press against.

Ive seen folk who have used the correct press tools wrong to the same ends.

Ive seen all manor of rounded bolts , bits of allen key , bits of stud extractor , drill bit stuck in places they shouldnt be etc .....

The right tools are as dangerous in the wrong hands as the wrong tools. The wrong tools in the right hands can be used to a reasonable ends if no other option but id still prefer to have the right tools.

"I've also made the walk of shame to the shop to sort the things that went wrong, always more than getting it done properly..."

see my previous post under "if you worked on it first " 😀

Actually, I don't 'love' it - a proper tapered headset press (or, i might find a lathe and turn a stepped-taper) would be much easier!
I was just playing devils advocate!

DrP

What's to stop ANYONE selling online?

I imagine a lack of understanding or will to change are two reasons for more traditional shops, or those with previously very reliable local trade, which is before you get into the the capital required to buy the volume of stock needed and still have a semblance of a profit margin whilst being vaguely competitive online.

What's to stop ANYONE selling online?

Nothing to stop you trying. eCommerce software is relatively cheap, but there's still a requirement for knowledge of how to use it, which you either have to have, acquire, or pay someone for.

You'll also be facing months and months before your site starts appearing anywhere in search rankings, and even then it'll be pages and pages down, and that's assuming you have anything to sell at a competitive price.

^ And that will likely be reliant on either word of mouth (very slow and limited) or a substantial advertising budget to create awareness, which is even harder than promoting in your own local area as you have to target nationally.

And after all that see how well you do against the big boys who are already there!

Some have made a decent go of it, CTBM springs to mind amongst others, but they've got some niche products to tip things in their favour, or rely on selling their own produce (SuperStar), or have a business model of buying up a lot of end-of-line stock in bulk to resell. It would be VERY hard to start up a new [i]generic [/i]online cycling store without some significant up front money or playing the very long game.

I'm another who rarely actually buys stuff from high street bike shops but do use them for servicing.

My LBS (Bromley bikes) usually has two mechanics working flat out, with the boss pitching in when really busy. There is normally a queue of people on a Saturday morning dropping off bikes for service work.

I'm mechanically minded + have a roll-cab full of tools.
Given the time, I would quite happily have a go at anything - bikes are not that complicated . (compared with pulling engines apart.

However, cycling is my hobby and with a young family I don't have whole evenings or weekends free to play about with gears/truing up wheels.

Bike shop labour rates are not expensive, and I'd rather pay my local shop £20 to sort my gears, or £15 to straighten a wheel, than waste an evenings riding time doing it myself.

I'm sure when I've retired (in about 25 years) i'll be happy to spend the day tweaking wheels and gears!

What's to stop ANYONE selling online?

A simple way of looking at it;

Everyone can buy something online - shops can't compete/provide
Not everyone can fix their own bike - shops can compete/provide

Opening longer hours and 7 days for customer convenience costs a whole kit more money in staff that most likely is not covered by the extra trade. Shops I know are busiest Mon to Fri duringn 9-5, I have known some to try later opening and found it was the quietest time as were Sundays.

the Park tool headset press is one of the easiest I've used

Which can be bought and sold on again for very little (if any) loss each time every 2-3 years when you actually need it. Or chip in with a crowd of mates who all buy one 'specialist' tool each which can then be shared around when needed.

The idea that people should think about value rather than price and that they'll miss bike shops when they're gone is something that most people would have some sympathy with I think. But in practice it's too frequently undermined by shops themselves. It's true that 'the internet can't fix your bike' but IME sometimes LBSs can't either, or at least to a standard and level of service that doesn't leave you thinking you should have done it yourself.

Obviously this isn't true for everyone but shops do need to actually provide this value that they want people to pay extra for. I appreciate there are reasons this might be difficult though, as in special's post.

Given the web is not going away why not find the opportunity, perhaps offer a collection serivce with basic bulid or even a bike fit?

Did you really just suggest a collection service bike fit?

Interesting thread. Trying to compete on-line as a small business is damn near impossible unless you have a niche that the big boys are not interested in and you're not up against smaller businesses that are desperate to sell at any price because they are going down the pan. Not only are you disadvantaged by you lack of buying power on the products but the same is true of shipping too, which is exacerbated by the distance selling rules which make postage refundable as well as the product what every the reason for the return. Adding to that is your inability to compete on Google shopping - it's now done on a bid basis, so if you can't bid high enough you won't appear, even if your the cheapest around. Google also changes its requirements on data feeds on a fairly regular basis, the cost in time for a small business to keep on top of that alone is just crippling. I was in the outdoor industry which seems to be going down the pan quicker than the bike trade. I'm not a Luddite, I realise change happens but those smugly stating "its just the way thing are man up" should be aware that this can happen to any business sector and probably will - they may well be next to be saying it's not fair, something need to be done, etc.

Did you really just suggest a collection service bike fit?

Yep, customer orders a bike from Tredz, gets it delivered to LBS so doesn't have to be at home, gets it t
recieved and built for £50 or fitted for £100.

Customers gets a service, LBS gets £100 possibly some accesory sales and probably ongoing custom.

Just a suggestion as an alternative to going online and moaning, I'm sure theres other options too.

Fitted without the customer present, interesting...

They have to collect it.

But then the customer still has to find time in their busy schedule to go to a shop anyway - and isn't the point of buying online the convenience and not having to talk to ****less bikeshop types who are only out to fleece you to enlarge their mansions?

Possibly inside your head, anyone who thinks like that deserves to gonout of business pronto.

Wow, you sound cross.
Need a hug?

Its a competitive market. As bikes get more expensive and reviews extol the virtues of the top end kit, buyers will want it (no one wants second best) and have to find it as cheaply as possible to afford it - i.e. online.

Bike shops have to find a unique selling point to stay around. If they think customer loyalty alone will do that then they are kidding themselves. Shop rides, weekends away, discount schemes, coffee, cake, advice, a good atmosphere, old fashioned salesmanship, servicing, suspension tuning, free bike demos, stocking non-discounted brands etc. All things you can't get online easily.

When I was in my teens I was good friends with the LBS owner, talking to him was enough to put me off a career in a bike shop. He used to hate Christmas, lots of cheap kids bikes to assemble and parents whining about £75 being too much. He had to sell to that market to keep afloat though as the roadie/MTB scene wasn't enough to support the shop (not helped by the attitude of expecting free repairs for life if you bought the bike there) and a lot of that was before Internet sales being a big thing.

Eventually there will be a correction and cafe/workshop/collect+ business will pop up to take the place of the majority of LBS's and the bigger traditional retail LBSs will still be around, just not so many of them and not so local for most.

Adam@BikeWorks - Member
Wow, you sound cross.
Need a hug?

Is that your attempt to divert an argument you cant support?

BikeWorks is the analogue answer to your bicycle needs in an age of digital disappointment.

and this

- and isn't the point of buying online the convenience and not having to talk to ****less bikeshop types who are only out to fleece you to enlarge their mansions?

Suggest you are the one with a chip on the shoulder.

Given the high price of top end bikes, surprised not to see a webuyanybike business. Reselling a £6000 pinarello for 20% for example might be viable business?

wilburt - Member
Is that your attempt to divert an argument you cant support?

I wasn't aware that I'd made an argument. Could you point me to it so I can see what it's all about?

Suggest you are the one with a chip on the shoulder.

Not at all - last I checked my shoulders were surprisingly chip free!

Given the high price of top end bikes, surprised not to see a webuyanybike business. Reselling a £6000 pinarello for 20% for example might be viable business?

Google seems to think there are such businesses...

I've never been tempted to go into Blazing Saddles purely because of the kit their roadies wear. Some of the riders you meet at races are nice, some not so much, as you'd expect, but the kit was gopping.

Still sad to think you won't see them around and the shop will be gone though, but like others have said there is no shortage of other local shops around, and quite a few have been springing up in slightly more prominent places like in Shoreham.

I've heard Freedom bikes in Brighton will probably be gone soon as well, which is another shop that would do a lot better in a different location.

It's always interesting how we blame "market forces" when we want to justify being a selfish arsehole. We usually don't even realise we're doing it.

Well of course we're all going to pay as little as we can - market forces, innit? Whether that's bike bits, milk, taxis or music downloads. If you can't compete with the market, you don't deserve to be in it. Logic.

So if the LBS needs to charge the retail price on parts, or a labour rate that I think is expensive, so they can keep afloat while maintaining a location and opening hours that are convenient for we customers, that's "being greedy" and we all start asking who they think they are, trying to make a profit from our demand for instant stuff and free labour.

So we're not "being greedy" when we decide to pay less to Wiggle/CRC / Amazon et al, because we choose not to see the warehouses full of zero-hours employees on minimum wages working round the clock and the tax-evading company groups making mind-boggling sums of money for venture capital funds, the delivery drivers who earn pennies per delivery and have to pay their own fuel and expenses, and the manufacturers effectively held to ransom by those companies.

Because it's all market forces, innit.

Nothing to do with market forces. It is because they don't sell what I want and know less than I do about my chosen style of bike.

Bike shops have to find a unique selling point to stay around. If they think customer loyalty alone will do that then they are kidding themselves. Shop rides, weekends away, discount schemes, coffee, cake, advice, a good atmosphere, old fashioned salesmanship, servicing, suspension tuning, free bike demos, stocking non-discounted brands etc. All things you can't get online easily.

Interestingly Spesh UK are trying to support LBSs to some degree by not supplying kit to the large online shops. How that will work out we will see, but it certainly seems to be a nod toward the bricks and mortar shop, even if they supply Evans and Cycle Surgery too (who, to be fair, are still bricks and mortar shops).

Everyone take a deep breath and try not to flame me for my opinion. Our prices are on our website and on chalkboards in the shop for everyone to see.

We've been open 5 1/2 years now and we are now doing less retail than ever. There is a finite amount of work that can go through the stand in a working day. The staff still need paying and when I work out the hours I do I'm on way less than minimum let alone living wage.

So, do we put our workshop prices to cover the loss in retail? Please bear in mind we *cannot* compete with online. We just can't. We can't get access to the grey/oem market in the way online retailers can. I'm experienced, qualified and passionate but people don't want to pay for that.

You are going to see a lot of bike shops pack up in the next year. I like a bargain as much as the next person but it doesn't come without it's consequences.

I know there are some bad bike shops out there. But we're going to lose the good ones as well.

There ends my rambly two penneth.

Aye, this is the problem - in many shops (mine included) the repairs and other time-consuming things aren't profitable enough on their own, bike sales have to subsidise them. That's not true of all businesses, but it's true of many.

Garagebikes, you dont need me to tell you how to compete in a very competitive marketplace so i won't, i will however tell you from a consumers point of view why or what i would like from a LBS.

As for pricing, with most things, charge accordingly. If i walk in off the street with a snapped gear cable for instance.......... and you are woring on a customers bike and have to stop, I would expect to be charged accordingly, i'd expect you to explain to me why this is, in the nicest possible way you understand 🙂

Likewise, if i stumble upon a SRAM Force 10 Speed Crankset at a bargain price from an online retailer and i do not posses the tools or the skills to fit it and get the gears set up i would again pay good money to get this fitted first time right with no crank arm falling off etc, there's got to be a market for good reliable know how, honest advice at a decent price.

Like Grimsby Fish, it cant all be from Grimsby on a Friday afternoon but you pay more for it at your front door, Likewise Ringtons Tea, A good fish N Chip shop or a proper butcher. Cyclists are a particular type of consumer. Generally though they will pay for what they want not necessarily what they need.

Everyone take a deep breath and try not to flame me for my opinion.

Unfortunately you sound like most shops I know of. It's bloody tough out there. Anyway you can diversify further? The obvious one is selling something like coffee, but that's also obviously not always appropriate or relevant.

My guess is that niches are there that can be filled, or as written by a former colleague of mine recently, get in bed with a big brand: https://cyclingindustry.news/sales-agents-view-the-toxification-of-the-bicycle-industry-supply-chain/

This is also worth a quick read: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/the-changing-face-of-the-british-bike-shop-165426

for pricing, with most things, charge accordingly. If i walk in off the street with a snapped gear cable for instance.......... and you are woring on a customers bike and have to stop, I would expect to be charged accordingly, i'd expect you to explain to me why this is, in the nicest possible way you understand

Aye, right 😆 I can see the thread on here now

LBS tried to charge me £50 to fit a gear cable!!11!

Yeah it was 530 on a Friday night and I needed it for Saturday, and the mechanic was having to stay late to clear a backlog, but it's not like it's rocket science! I even bought the cable from the shop! Shysters!

Can't gloat over someones business going to the wall. My own angle is I shop carefully (bikestuff and clothes) partly out of habit having grown up poor. Lots of working people are seeing their surplus monthly salary squeezed tight due to spiralling bills and childcare costs. One thing has to give, I.e spare money for hobbies.

RIP shop 🙁

Another view - I wanted a particular pair of shorts for a particular race and I occasionally get discounted/sponsored equipment. I phoned Mavic HQ and they were very keen for me to support my LBS and obtain the shorts from them..... I duly phoned the shop in Chichester and placed the order. The shop proceeded to forget to order from head-office, then ordered the wrong style, then promised the shorts would be with me in another week and that I could have them at a discounted price.
This all took three weeks.

I cancelled the order and purchased with the help of Mr Google and the right pair arrived in 48 hours.

Some LBS don't help themselves (and this particular shop is a sponsor of our mountain bike club)

At times LBS don't help themselves unfortunately, I've had 2 new bikes from one shop with issues straight out the door, one bike had the indexing completely out and the other had finger tight stem bolts 🙁

Interestingly Spesh UK are trying to support LBSs to some degree by not supplying kit to the large online shops. How that will work out we will see, but it certainly seems to be a nod toward the bricks and mortar shop,

A shift from the whole industry to value the LBS would make a huge difference, supplying the LBS with parts at a competitive rate etc. but it won't fix the main problem. People are unable to ask or too scared to call, so may threads end up with it's not on the website so it doesn't exist, it wasn't on the shelf so they don't have it. Peoples retail habits have changed massively and both shops need to catch up and consumers need to be a little braver. Most shops here this time of year (end of line) will be getting a weekly email from the distributor with all the clearout stock on it. There are some gems that will never be worth putting online as they will be gone but if you ask about 29r wheel sets or these bikes there could be heaps of bargains.

Bike shops are there for people who want a tyre, a seat, a pedal etc,. for their bike.
Halfords can offer this.

Online shops via ability to search 100's of them are there for people who want specific items, i.e. A brand of tyre in a specific model and size in correct compound choice, protection layer etc,.
LBS will never do this. As soon as they say the words "I will order one in" they have lost as I can order one in straight to my door.

You can blame the internet/online retail but it is not all about price, it is about choice. I buy at least 90% of my stuff online (all stuff not just bike) and it is driven by getting the items I want ahead of getting a better price.

Bike shops are there for people who want a tyre, a seat, a pedal etc,. for their bike.
Halfords can offer this.

You can blame the internet/online retail but it is not all about price, it is about choice.

I've wondered for a while if there was a model for a LBS that involved a cooperative approach with LBSs ganging together with a 'mothership' warehouse and slimmed down bricks and mortar shops. Online presence and distribution from the warehouse with the option of it being delivered to the shop for fitting. Bulk buying power from a group of shops that might challenge the big hitter online outfits. The ability of the shops to get their hands on a broader range of stock with the outlay covered by more operations making going into an actual shop more attractive again. Some of the shops, depending on location, being bog standard kids and family outfits and others doing the niche stuff. The ability to market/sponsors events with the resources of a group rather than an individual.

As a LBS owner (in common I guess with lots of other markets) faced with oblivion I would have thought a certain flexibility about the direction the business needs to go in order to survive must be needed. I guess the only thing that has saved some is the rapid rise of the commuter cyclist and the mamil meaning there is a little more wealth to spread and crumbs to catch.

hatter - Member

Noone ever took their first steps in this brilliant little pastime of ours because of Canyon or CRC.

Sure about that? Maybe if you lived near either of their two bike shops you would change your mind. CRC is an LBS to an awful lot of people. The sport has taken off massively over here in last few years and CRC has done very well from the noobs. Most seasoned riders prefer to support smaller bike shops rather than feed the machine. If i need something quickly, i'll pop over as it's can be handy having the worlds largest bike shop a 10 minute drive away.