[Closed] An open letter to motorists

This also pretty much meets my experiences in Croydon. I work opposite busy traffic lights, and the frightening display of rlj every day, grossly outweighs the amount of people that actually stop. I blame fixie riders, clipped in, so desperate to not stop, so they wobble, hop about a bit, and given a choice between unclipping and having the incvenience of putting a foot down, or trying to evate that juggenaught, go for the latter every time.

If it's an open letter to motorists, shouldn't you have posted this to a predominantley motor vehicle interest message board?

I might be shooting myself in the foot by saying this but the blame can probably be aimed mainly at bike couriers and all the people who try to copy their every whim. With the rise in popularity of fixie bikes people try to act like couriers too, without accepting they won't get fired if they are slow (unlike bike couriers). Fixie bikes themselves aren't the problem, they are fun to ride but it's people trying to imitate alley cat races (and the actual races themselves ofc) etc. which has lead to to such a bad image for most cyclists.

I work in that London and walk from Waterloo to St Paul's every day. During said stroll I see *lots* of bikes and I reckon it's about 60:40 split on red light stoppers/jumpers respectively.

Well, it is a bit of a polemic, I suppose. Maybe the problem isn't quite as bad as I describe, but I couldn't believe some of the behaviour.

Depends where you are in t'Smurk.

Some places are relatively well behaved, but a lot of the popular arteries 90%+ of riders (I'd hesitate to call them cyclists) jump the lights. It gets truly dull having to re-overtake them every few hundred yards. It's such a wide variety of riders too - from nervous girls on shopping bikes, via hipsters on Charge Plugs to full on lycralords on £3k+ of carbon exotica.

There are also a few places (Victoria->The Mall->Trafalgar Square where the sheer number of bikes leads to complete chaos. Cars are for the most part reasonably orderly and queue up nicely. Bikes? All ove rthe damn place without respect for any other road users or pedestrians.

(and yes for the record, I am on a bike whilst all this is happening. It's even a fixie, and no I DON'T RLJ)

I sometimes go through red lights. I would say about 90% of the time I don't.

However, I would say near 100% of motorists break the lay most every time they drive, by speeding. So really, along with all the deaths and pollution and maiming, the fracturing of communities, the out of town shopping centres and the destruction of our once great railway network, I hardly think the motorist can claim the moral high ground?

However, I would say near 100% of motorists break the lay most every time they drive, by speeding. So really, along with all the deaths and pollution and maiming, the fracturing of communities, the out of town shopping centres and the destruction of our once great railway network, I hardly think the motorist can claim the moral high ground?

two wrongs do make a right after all

It's about time that RLJing is legalised. I reckon that the main reason why people get so worked up about it is because it's illegal.

Pedestrians cross the road whenever and wherever they fancy (usually without getting run over, too) and it's fine since it's legal. Do the same in Germany and people start tutting at you since it's illegal there.

(I don't RLJ, by the way.)

[i]the destruction of our once great railway network,[/i]

I'm a motorist, I wasn't aware that Dr Beeching's report was in fact my fault...

Problem with a big city like London, is that there are red lights every 100m or so, making even a shortish journey an annoying stop-start-stop-start nightmare. The lights are there mainly for motor vehicles, for which the City's roads aren't really designed for. Many lights are for pedestrian crossings, which are essential due to the speed and size of motor vehicles. Most of them wouldn't be necessary if there were no cars etc. If you ride through central London on a bike, you pedal for so many yards, get up to speed, then you've invariably got to stop again. After doing this 20 or 30 times in a mile, you get fed up with it. I regularly ride through red lights where I pose no danger to anyone, as stopping is simply pointless. I don't really care what drivers think, as 1) I am not creating foul pollution in an already polluted place, and 2) most of them have no justifiable reason to be driving anyway, they do so simply because it's convenient.

Personally, I'd like to see all cars other than essential services banned from central London during the day, delivery and service vehicles for the West End shops etc restricted to the night time, and the streets free for cyclists and pedestrians to get about in a cleaner and safer environment. A pipe dream, I know.

The biggest problem that faces cyclists and pedestrians in London and other big cities, is that drivers assume they have priority of movement, and expect everyone to give way to them. Not helped by a transport policy that seems to encourage private vehicle use. I regularly get beeped/sworn at by drivers for 'getting in their way'. Truth is, my average speed on a bike is reduced by the sheer number of cars on the roads, and it's them who are getting in my way. Plus, the consequences of me hitting them are far, far less than the other way round. Therefore, I have little respect for such attitudes. I appreciate the increase in the number of cyclists has led to problems in central London, but the biggest problem is cars, not bikes.

No, but the motor car was one of the main reasons it was seen to be a good idea to scrap most of the network.

Hear hear elfinsafety.

[url= http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1695668.ece ]Obeying Highway Code deadly to women.[/url]

Interesting - in London where traffic crawls along at a relatively slow pace i'm guessing cars don't get the chance to jump reds?

Round here (Leeds) at rush hour it amazes me the number of car drivers who'll speed up and run a red - and they must do as the green man comes on on crossings as they are completing this manouvere.

Works both ways.

What is really winding me up at the moment is the ****ers who do stop at lights but then push their way to the front. These people are generally the slowest away and cause all those cyclists waiting patiently to try and overtake again. I did try asking a very nice looking lady on a dutch style bike why she felt the need to push her way to the front, the answer being '.....you arrogant pr**k'. I wish it didn't wind me up - I have managed to take most other goings-on as just life cycling round London but pushing in....it's just not cricket.

I used to be one of the 'RLJers give cyclists a bad name' brigade and religiously stopped at red lights for years. These days I find myself going through them on an increasing basis. Why? Well firstly I've come to the conclusion that in a lot of cases, it's a lot safer to do so (ie. to avoid being stuck just in front of 2 or 3 lanes of impatient, ignorant and unobservant drivers waiting to storm off the minute the amber light comes on). Secondly I'm not willing to sacrifice this increase in safety to improve the reputation of cyclists when the majority of drivers don't care anyway. And thirdly because ultimately me running a red light at a left turn, empty ped crossing, or getting a headstart at a crossroads when it is safe is not going to endanger anyone, and isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

Women don't end up under lorries because they wait at lights, they do so because they'll filter blithely up the left side of a left-turning (and usually indicating) lorry and either not make it to the front of the queue in time or not be assertive enough to place themselves in front of it. Waiting at lights is *not* the issue.

FWIW, I do from Finsbury Park to Victoria most days via a variety of routes and while some spots are worse than others I'd say the majority of cyclists I see do obey the lights (with the exception of the pedestrian crossings that seem to be on timers, not by demand). Maybe because I go early and come back late I don't see so many of the 9-5ers?

I love the ones who just keep riding along as if there is nothing there (ie no red light, no intersection, no give way sign), dont look for cars with right of way. Then oh there's something stopped in front of me, no problem, I'll just mount the foot path and ride around then ride off again right into the traffic which is now moving again. Why check for traffic, they will all avoid me... toodley doo, tumpdy dum.

I used to think pedestrains were the scariest (after getting knocked off by one) but recently the good weather has brought out all the summer cyclists 🙁

gimps

Elfinsafety put it much better than I ever could.

Well, motorists, yesterday I rode in London at rush hour for the first time

See, you've based your opinions on very little experience. I suggest you come down and talk to people who cycle regularly in London, and listen to what they have to say. And ignore most drivers; they're more concerned with their own journey than they are the safety of others. And maybe spend the time to find out the actual statistics of injuries caused by cyclists, and by motor vehicles. Have a chat with ambulance crews who regularly deal with motor vehicle accidents. Then you'll realise that many cyclists are merely riding defensively, rather than 'aggressively' as you seem to suggest.

And for all those RLJs, how many accidents did you see?

And for all those RLJs, how many accidents did you see?

not enough...

That's nice Boarding Bob; you'd like to see someone hurt or killed, just because someone rode through a red light? Teach them a lesson, eh?

I cycle commute 6 miles each direction in London every day (from NW to S) and the attitude / conduct of the majority of cyclists I encounter is f*cking disgraceful and downright dangerous

There are 14 traffic lights on my commute, and at every light 3/4 of the cyclists will jump the red light, some having very near misses with pedestrians and motor vehicles

there is no excuse for jumping red lights or ignoring pedestrian crossings, if you are not safe on the road it because you lack road awareness whilst cycling in heavy traffic, nothing to do with other road users like cars or taxis

the most common "near misses" I currently have (every day) as a law-obeying cyclist is idiot cyclists that will not stop for a red light on their approach and cycle at me, at full speed even though I am going through on a green light, and will then turn round and tell me to "f*ck off" when I comment on their stupidity

police need to start nicking law breaking cyclists with stiff financial penalties and then they might start getting the message into their thick and arrogant heads!

i used to live near a busy crossroads in that london, there was a 'no left turn' light and it was scary how many drivers jumped it, scattering peds crossing on the green man. happens all over the place, but some people prefer to get their knickers in a twist about cyclists.

cyclists rarely stop at reds here (spain), but people don't tend to moan about it as it's trivial compared to the horrendous driving standards.

I have no idea why people can't understand this: it is the motor vehicles that are dangerous, not the cyclists or pedestrians. The accident statistics bear this out.

If it's an open letter to motorists, shouldn't you have posted this to a predominantley motor vehicle interest message board?

I was down in London a couple of weeks ago. Used to live and cycle there regularly, now I only visit once in a while. The sheer number of cyclists on the road in some places is incredible and obviously there are wildly varying standards. Traffic seems to have got worse as well after a period where it seemed to be easing up thanks to the congestion charge. Maybe it's due to all the roadworks everywhere.

I reckoned it was about 50:50 RLJ:stoppers and I can see the point that, on a bike, it's much less of an issue jumping lights since bikes are much more nimble, can fit through smaller gaps and it means you escape from dangerous junctions before the crowd of impatient motorists behind accelerates forward.

On the other hand, imagine the complete carnage that would ensue if motorists broke the rules like (some) cyclists do...

Elfinsafety - Member

Well, motorists, yesterday I rode in London at rush hour for the first time

See, you've based your opinions on very little experience

I know the arguments. I've heard them all before, from both sides. I'm not arguing the merit or lack thereof of jumping the lights. I usually commute in the suburbs/Surrey countryside, but that ride in London just made me adjust my attitude a bit. I can see why people get so peed off.

I apologise if this is too measured or reasonable.

police need to start nicking law breaking cyclists with stiff financial penalties and then they might start getting the message into their thick and arrogant heads!

No, what needs to happen, as already mentioned, is that certain lights should be re-evaluated in terms of how necessary it is for cyclists to have to stop, and for some sensible, rational, realistic common sense to be applied. Maybe signs indicating cyclists can go through on red, or a new law which states cyclists have to stop only when is necessary, like I believe they have in Holland and other places.

It's the 'law breaking' bit that gets up people's noses. Esher shore; as well as the cyclists' misdemeanours, how many car drivers did you see breaking traffic regulations (driving whilst on the 'phone, not indicating, speeding, not using mirrors effectively, driving without due care and attention etc) because if you didn't see any of that, then maybe you lack sufficient observational skills needed to be able to ride safely in busy congested areas.

And only 14 sets of lights in 6 miles? What route is that?

I drive round London every week in the lorry and have never really found the cyclists a problem. I love driving round the place. It's the only city in the UK where you can drive like a stabbed rat and nobody bats an eye lid.

I have no idea why people can't understand this: it is the motor vehicles that are dangerous, not the cyclists or pedestrians. The accident statistics bear this out.

some motor vehicles are driven very sensibly. Some bicycles are cycled very dangerously. Some people do not pay enough attention when walking.

When London centre is totally given over to the bicycle it will be total carnage. At least the vehicles keep us in check a bit. No cars will equal a no-holds-barred cycle free for all. I reckon we'll see more 'cycling' related accidents and [url=

lot more of this[/url]

could be fun

Hi
I live in York, I'm firmly of the tut tut brigade re: red light jumping in my city and others like it but I have also ridden a lot in London and Elfinsafety has made some killer points. Depends where you are, to some extent, I suppose, even if I get stopped at every red light in York it is hardly an issue....

One of the major junctions in York, near the train station, is being changed shortly, they are installing delayed lights where cyclists get the green light earlier than motorists to allow them to get away safely. Aparently this is the first of its kind in the country.

I read recently that a TfL survey found that 80% of cyclists did stop. However we are much more likely to notice those that don't.

I stop for the record, but also understand why some don't at some junctions / lights.

A w4nker on a bike is annoying to everyone else, a w4nker in a car is [i]deadly[/i] to everyone else.

This is quite a big distinction.

As for RLJing I used to be dead against it, now I'm not so sure. In a lot of instances (busy crossroads, pedestrian crossings) its dangerous and stupid. In other cases (turning left, T junctions) it limits the risk to cyclists as they aren't having tend with a queue of traffic pulling away when the light goes green.

Everyone on the road needs to calm down, motorists slow down and realise the guy on a bike is making more space for you on the road. Peds need to stop wandering around like bloody zombies and actually look before they step onto a road and cyclists need to realise the risks they take when they ride like idiots and start acting accordingly

Motorist kill or seriously injure around 3500 cyclists and pedestrians a year.
There are speed cameras that generate £1000000 a year income from fines at £60 a time.

And yet, here on STW, we have [i]another[/i] thread about RLJing. 🙄

police need to start nicking law breaking cyclists with stiff financial penalties and then they might start getting the message into their thick and arrogant heads!

MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member

Motorist kill or seriously injure around 3500 cyclists and pedestrians a year.
There are speed cameras that generate £1000000 a year income from fines at £60 a time.

And yet, here on STW, we have another thread about RLJing.

hmmm... i think i know you from another forum.... hello! 🙂

When London centre is totally given over to the bicycle it will be total carnage

Ha ha! This is like 'If they let the Darkies in they'll rape our women and take our jobs and murder our swans and eat them and all our children will end up speaking only in Urdu!' (I am not for a second suggesting you're in any way like that, Whippersnapper!).

Come on. Central London, and the centres of many towns and cities in Britain, just aren't designed for motor vehicle traffic. The bicycle is the best form of transport, in so many ways. The recent 'explosion' in cycle use has led to some problems, but once again, the worst problem is too many cars. Pure and simple.

I tell you what I love doing; riding around the City on a Sunday, when it's all quiet. The best time to enjoy the place. Hardly any cars or people, it's actually amazingly serene and peaceful. It's then that the idea of banning cars really makes sense. Seriously, give it a go. You might just enjoy it!

(And you'll probably be able to jump a few red lights without anyone noticing...)

We only need to look to certain parts of Europe to understand that mass transportation cycling would make our cities cleaner, quieter, safer, more pleasant, and quicker to move about. There are so many part time cyclists, full time drivers on here.

i counted over 40 sets of traffic lights on my 4 mile commute in london.

As with others, when i started comuting i stopped at them all, but most of the time i was waiting round like a chump in front of an empty road.

I think lots of drivers would dislike cyclist even if all of them followed the highway code to the letter. Complaining about RLJ'ing is just a rubbish attempt at rationalising it, like complaining about 'road tax'.

>At least the vehicles keep us in check a bit. No cars will equal a no-holds-barred cycle free for all. I reckon we'll see more 'cycling' related accidents

Yeah, absolutely *terrible* fist-fights all over China before car ownership became more common, I dunno how they all survived...

'If they let the Darkies in they'll rape our women and take our jobs and murder our swans and eat them and all our children will end up speaking only in Urdu!'

hee hee, I must take after my grandmother after all 😉

I share your sentiments about vehicles in the city centre Elfinsafety. I was just thinking aloud I suppose, based on the actions of the many self important cyclists about (Clerkenwell in particular).

I like you make use of sunday mornings for a spot of quiet city centre sight seeing. It is ace. Evenings after rush hour (but before the pubs close) is good too.