[Closed] An open letter to motorists

"One of the major junctions in York, near the train station, is being changed shortly, they are installing delayed lights where cyclists get the green light earlier than motorists to allow them to get away safely. Aparently this is the first of its kind in the country."

Actually I *think* they had them in Oxford some time ago, but I agree that they're far from common, and having more of them at busy or complex junctions would make negotiating such junctions much safer for cyclists, and remove the temptation for cyclists to RLJ. Apart from the fakengers and actual couriers, that is.

Part of me is quite surprised that there haven’t been (to my knowledge) any instances of cyclists being sued by drivers (for damages or trauma caused etc) following an accident caused by a cyclist running a red light (and I’m not saying it should happen).

Surely these lights which allow cyclists to go first will just result in more confusion as most drivers I see can't cope with understanding 3 lights let alone any more.

How about we just have a 2 lights, stop and go for cars, and a general rule that they only apply to cyclists if there is traffic or pedestrians crossing? God forbid we should empower road users with the power of common sense and responsibility.

You're not alone Piggy, I stop at the lights but if I'm late I will hop off the bike, run on the path and then on the road again which is legal but usually I just wait at the lights.

I know so many roadies and mtb'ers who just go through it and once a van driver with an open window asked me why I was waiting unlike my 'riding buddy' who shot through the red lights- "because I'm not a ****" was my answer!

Elfinsafety - Member
Come on. Central London, and the centres of many towns and cities in Britain, just aren't designed for motor vehicle traffic.

Well, bugger me. So all those grey strips of tarmac all over the place are actually snail superhighways?

What a load of tosh.

Well, bugger me. So all those grey strips of tarmac all over the place are actually snail superhighways?

I don't understand why it's so difficult to just follow the rules of the road. Never jump lights or mount pavements myself and get pissed off when others do. Seen a few end up over the bonnet of a car because they did. I just cycled passed them lying in a heap thinking they got what they deserved.

You're a little ray of sunshine, aren't you?

Never jump lights or mount pavements myself and get pissed off when others do.

Why though? Fair play if you want to live your life to the letter of some rule book, but if people who take a more pragmatic and logical view as to whether a certain rule is worth obeying annoy you, then maybe you should take a leaf out of their book?

You're a little ray of sunshine, aren't you?

Yes I am thanks. Not my fault some clown thought going through a red light straight into a car was a good idea now was it? He took the risk and it back fired. Tough shit, deal with it.

Why though? Fair play if you want to live your life to the letter of some rule book, but if people who take a more pragmatic and logical view as to whether a certain rule is worth obeying annoy you, then maybe you should take a leaf out of their book?

Rather not. I don't live to a 'rule book'. It annoys me as I fail to see how waiting a few minutes is going ruin someones day. Plenty talk on here about drivers going to fast to save a few seconds etc, well, it's just excatly the same as far as I'm concerned.

But why should it bother you whether someone else may or may not ruin their day by waiting a few minutes? And whilst you may think drivers and cyclists disobeying the rules of the road is the same, it just isn't. Maybe you should direct your ire toward a more worth target.

I appreciate what you're saying, coogan, but wishing harm on someone just because they've been a little foolish/made an error of judgement is a bit harsh, is all.

I don't live to a 'rule book'

Nor do I, if I can help it. But I'll make my own decisions as to what's safe or not. If I'm at a red light, and I consider it safe to proceed, I'll do so, and not worry about the opinions of others. If they decide to get their knickers in a twist over my 'lawlessness', then that's their call. I can't live my live worrying about what others will think, at every step of the way. I want to get places. If you chose to sit waiting needlessly at lights when riding on would make not one iota of difference in he general scheme of things, that's up to you.

There are worse things than a few cyclists running a few red lights. Driving two tonnes of metal around like a nutcase without any regard for the safety of others being one of them. Plenty more people doing that.

But why does it bother you that it bothers me? Sorry, forgot cyclists are never in the wrong on this website. 🙄

It only bothers me because there seems to be a large misguided consensus among people that the biggest issue of road safety at the moment is whether cyclists run red lights or not, and not any of the multitude issues to do with dangerous, ignorant or incompetent driving.

Yeah, I can understand your point. My point is as bad as some drivers are there are equally some bad cyclists. I cycle and drive round Edinburgh and both are as bad as each other. Yes, I know a car is heavier/bigger etc etc than a bike, but it doesn't stop the fact that some folk on a bike are a liability to themselves when it can't be avoided. And vice versa with motorists.

My point is as bad as some drivers are there are equally some bad cyclists

I don't think you [i]can[/i] say they are equally bad though. I mean if they really were equally bad, you'd see thousands of people killed and injured by cyclists every year. And, well, you don't.

Cyclists are not equally bad.

Sorry, forgot cyclists are never in the wrong on this website. 🙄

[b]It's the 'law breaking' bit that gets up people's noses. Esher shore; as well as the cyclists' misdemeanours, how many car drivers did you see breaking traffic regulations (driving whilst on the 'phone, not indicating, speeding, not using mirrors effectively, driving without due care and attention etc) because if you didn't see any of that, then maybe you lack sufficient observational skills needed to be able to ride safely in busy congested areas.

And only 14 sets of lights in 6 miles? What route is that? [/b]

14 sets of traffic lights in 6 miles is called smart commuting - finding a back street route to minimize use of main roads - yet even with my "only" 14 sets of lights, I find the majority of cyclists jumping the lights!

yes, there are always bad examples of motorists in London and I am extremely observant of all traffic whilst riding even during my back street commute - however the traffic speeds are relatively low in London, and I ride defensively giving clear indication to motorized road users...which is something MANY cyclists do not do

giving NO hand signals and making sudden turns = wondering why a motorist has nearly run into the back of them?

yes there are motorists using mobile phones, trying to speed in short clear gaps on the roads, but bad motoring does not excuse cyclists from acting like complete pricks and ignoring the rules of the road, or even just using any "common sense"

I have seen plenty of crashes over the years from traffic light jumpers, including attending a fatality which was not pleasent!

something to understand about the highway code - IF you are involved in a serious road traffic accident and have jumped a red light, don't expect the "law" to view your situation with any sympathy especially if you try to bring a civil claim against a motorist

stopping at traffic lights and giving way to pedestrians on crossings does not ruin your commute, just adds a little time - if you are that tight on time, try leaving your house 2-3 minutes earlier!

people need to take responsibility for their actions, and cycling like a prick does not help anyone

I appreciate what you're saying, coogan, but wishing harm on someone just because they've been a little foolish/made an error of judgement is a bit harsh, is all.

At which point did I wish harm on someone?

Interesting stuff.

When I used to commute through a big town I only followed one rule:

"Never do anything that causes any other road user or pedestrian to have to alter their own course of action."

With this you can go through red lights, ride on pavements, anything really as long as you're aware of everything around you.

Worked for me - I almost never had to stop.

Then I saw [url=

VIDEO[/url] and realised what real skill is 😯

At which point did I wish harm on someone?

Well, you did say this:

I just cycled passed them lying in a heap thinking they got what they deserved.

From that I gather that you didn't stop to ensure they were ok. A bit callous, no? And does someone 'deserve' to be hurt for being foolish or making a bad decision? Their behaviour is hardly malicious.

At which point did I wish harm on someone?

some folk on a bike are a liability to themselves when it can't be avoided. And vice versa with motorists.

I'm not a fan of cyclists RLJing either but there's much more worthy targets for my disdain. Get the death by car numbers right down [i]then[/i] start nailing RLJers to the wall if you so wish.

Well this morning on my 4 mile commute from Levenshulme to Manchester city centre, I went through 2 of the 5 red lights I was stopped at. One at a crossroads which had no traffic crossing which enabled me to get a headstart on the 2 lanes of traffic behind me, and another nipping through a crossroads when the ped crossing was on the green man and there were no peds.

In the same ride I also had a car cut in on me without looking in a cycle lane so that it could undertake another car turning right, and another car turn right across me at some lights.

So in one, fairly typical, ride I had two events which could have caused a bad crash simply because the idiot drivers weren't looking where they were going, yet probably still what you would hear is people going on about the fact I jumped a couple of red lights which affected no one.

From that I gather that you didn't stop to ensure they were ok. A bit callous, no? And does someone 'deserve' to be hurt for being foolish or making a bad decision? Their behaviour is hardly malicious.

Still not sure how that is wishing harm on someone. No I didn't stop, he was clearly fine, just with a massively dented ego. No, no one deserves to get hurt, but when you go through a red light in traffic and hit a car going through a green light, you also don't deserve any sympathy.

[url=

-
"Then I saw THIS VIDEO and realised what real skill is"

Lol, i wondered how long it would be until somebody posted a Lucas Brunelle video on here 😮 [url=

is one they did in London, I fully accept this is an extreme and is nowhere near the more trivial light jumping we're mainly discussing but meh...

Thanks Mooo I've been on his site and looked at most of his vids and some of them are pretty cool.

THe NYC one is my all time fave on Youtube - but in another guise with a more laidback soundtrack.

I think the London one is a bit less controlled than the NY one, maybe some of the riders aren't as skilled or maybe the different traffic/road set-up makes it harder? ONe guy even falls off in the carpark at the start.

I guess you can take elements of what they do and tone it down and icorporate it into your own commute to enable swifter progress.

Or just watch and enjoy 😀

No problem 😀 He was originally a road cyclist I think but got kicked out of his team for getting into fights (hmm, no surprises there). Their technical ability is impressive and on most of the red lights there is no traffic at all but... a lot of it is just stupid tbh. Quite near the start he almost runs into a police car while on the wrong side of the road lol

They are skillful. Jumping red lights. Cycling down the wrong side of the street. Almost knocking people over. Wow. Impressive...

And yet, for all their rampant law breaking and dangerous stupid cycling, they are unlikely to kill anyone, bar themselves. I don't condone what those people do, in fact, quite the opposite: I find it appalling.

But lets not ignore the fact that cyclists don't kill people, motorists do. And motorists do this, not by breaking every point of the highway code like the cyclists in those videos do, but by their normalised illegality, i.e speeding, dodgy overtaking, using mobiles, paying bugger all care and attention.

Whilst I could never condone such breathtaking lawlessness, it's interesting that despite the speed they ride and rules they break, there still don't appear to be any accidents of any seriousness.

You could even take this as significant evidence that however reckless or dangerous cyclists ride, it's still pretty harmless in the grand scheme of things.

You could even take this as significant evidence that however reckless or dangerous cyclists ride, it's still pretty harmless in the grand scheme of things.

So it's dangerous and harmless at the same time? And just because they didn't show any accidents doesn't mean there wasn't any.

Fair enough, but the point still stands that however reckless and law-breaking cyclists can be, it's still much less harmful than even a mild case of reckless behaviour by someone driving a vehicle, and so the two things cannot be equated or even sensibly compared.

it's tempting to agree with coogan that it's all semantics and all we're doing here is arguing over who the biggest knobs are, bad cyclists or bad motorists.

Then you see the enormity of the latest road death tolls and see how few are caused by bikes.

I'm not arguing who the biggest knob out of them are. I just find on here sometimes because its obviously a cyclist based site that there is whinging and crying over all sorts of stuff but the minute a cyclist is involved a blind eye is turned and they are clearly in the right. I'd never deny that cars/vans/trucks etc are going to cause more damage and more than likely kill some one, but if we all started jumping red lights, mounting pavements and the like I'm pretty sure you'd see a steep increase in people getting clobbered by cyclists and the inevitable outcry about 'bloody cycilsts' even more.

The most dangerous thing I can see in that video is the cars.

Oh, and hello Bob. [img] [/img]

And my point is proven.

sweet jesus, there's some high horses being ridden instead of bikes clearly.

Elfin et al, you don't get to make your own rules of the road. They already exist. No ifs, no buts, they're there. If you're not prepared to abide by them I suggest you piss off onto the private land that you clearly need to own and let the rest of us get on with it.

Then the roads will be safer and all parties will be more respectful and tolerant of each other.

Really? It's the likes of 'Elfin et al' that make the roads dangerous, because we refuse to obey the highway code, the rules of the road? What percentage of drivers commit speeding offences? Do you know anyone who drives a car and [i]doesn't[/i] break the highway code by speeding? And yet it's a war on motorists, another tax on the motoring public, to even suggest lowering speed limits or putting more cameras up. Official road statistics clearly show that it is the motorists who are dangerous, it is the motorists who kill, maim and pollute, it is the motorists who clog our cities with their fat lazy metal coffins.

Elfinsafety - Fancy starting an urban guerilla anti car faction? Baader Meinhoff?

Presumably if there were a rule that it's fair game for drivers to run over cyclists with no penalty (which not too far from the truth TBH) then you'd be quite happy with that too?

Elfin et al, you don't get to make your own rules of the road

Eh? I don't make my own rules up, I simply choose to exercise my right to ignore those which I believe to be pointless and unnecessary in a particular situation. I take it you have never acted through independent thought, driven over the speed limit, etc etc...

I like to think I live in a reasonably liberal society, not a totalitarian dystopia where we are nothing but mindless drones.

Mansonsoul; sounds good.

Badger Meinhoff?
Dimly Lit Path?
ANC (Anti Naughty Cars)?
BNP (Be Nice to People)?
Hummus?
Taxiban?
Nice Shade Of Beige September?

manson, that's a really daft argument, surely you can see that? Just because someone else does it that makes it entirely legitimate for you? Because in your opinion they're worse (your guerilla sentiments are in fact quite disturbing) and you should be held as a paragon?

Sometimes I'm narked and if someone pees me off, I think they could do with a slap. But I don't do it. But some people do, and some stab people, and some shoot people and some murder people. They're a minority, but a little slap is so much more a minor offence that it should be inconsequential? Same concept, different actions...

Don't fall off that horse though, it's a long way for you to come down.

I hate all road users equally. Though I do hate cyclists more.

elfin, you can choose to ignore all the rules you want if you do it in your own private environment. As soon as you enter the road environment where others need to co-exist, and as you rightly say are driving vehicles that are bigger and *potentially* more dangerous than you, your actions can directly affect their actions.

It's simple - if you choose to break these rules then you really have zero argument against others that do, regardless of their mode of transport.

Now you're just being silly. Comparing running a red light to violence.

Always has to go to extremes this, doesn't it?

'All red light jumpers are scum of the Earth and cause Global Warming, War and Famine'.

Ooh! Ooh! Mansonsoul!!!

What about, our uniform could be....

...light red jumpers?????

I'm sooo excited!

the minute a cyclist is involved a blind eye is turned and they are clearly in the right

Careful elfin, motorists might start picking and choosing which rules they follow too....oh hang on a minute....