[Closed] advice please - Call from Police re: being knocked off my bike...

In all honesty I think a day in court and a conviction would send a stronger message than an awareness course. If the police think they can get a conviction then I think they should go for it.

Send him on an awareness course, he will have to pay, loose a days pay and get a ribbing at work and hopefully learn.

Awareness course sounds sensible, and probably won't be an easy option for him. Costs a fair whack and will need a day off work. Hardly seems worth going to court if he accepts he was at fault and as you say the whole thing has already given him a bit of a wake up call.

Ignore what anyone else says and think about what would make you feel better about the incident. IF you are happy you resolved it and are going to feel bad about sending it further then don't do it, your only making yourself suffer more.

If your happy to send it further and not worry about it then go for it.

(Personally i'd send him on the course, but wasn't there so could change my opinion)

It's a difficult one if you've had a civil discussion, because you can see his contrition and have some empathy with the effect it would have on his employer. But I think you need to be a little more objective about it, and think how it would benefit other cyclists or road users he would interact with. Whilst you may feel he has learned his lesson, he may well feel he's got away lightly but not changed his actionos enough. In your position, I would persue a driver awareness course. It was luck that you were not more seriously injured and this is a fair outcome, the consequences for him are relatively minor in comparison to the harm that could have been caused to you - or that could be caused to someone else.

Conviction for 'driving without due care and attention' is an easy one. The only evidence required is the Police Officers opinion that he was. Ask me how I know 🙁

However it seems a bit heavy handed for this. I'd support sending him on an 'awareness day'

I'd support the sending him on the awareness day. Seems like a suitable punishment.

I've been on a speed awareness course and I was surprised by how useful it was, I adapted the way I drive because of it long term and would suggest an awareness course is a good thing. Points for speeding worked whilst I had them on my licence but once lapsed I reverted back to previous habits. If you want to punish then off to court, if you want to stop it happening to someone else suggest the course.

ameidas, I like your attitude, it has been prioven time and time again that "punishment" does not work to reform offenders. So either your civil discusion and or a driver awareness course seem like good ideas, giving people the opportunity to rehabilitate without criminalising them is the route to a good society.

I'd say an awareness course seems reasonable too.

From what you described he doesn't sound like a "bad driver" (given that he was contrite, apologetic and accepted responsibility).

He just lacks "awareness" - a failing which a course has a better chance of addressing than a conviction.

I say go for the awareness course. He'll learn more from that than he would from points and a fine. His awareness is clearly in need of some improvement as he wasn't aware you were on the road and wasn't aware that he'd knocked you off.

If there'd been any suggestion of malice then I'd have said points. But rather than being a malicious idiot he's just not very good at driving. It seems like some improvement would be a good thing for him and everyone else he shares the road with.

Since you've already reported it, his details will (should?) have been recorded so that if he does the same/similar again then he's effectively "got previous" and the police will take this in to account.

I've been on a speed awareness course and I'd agree that it was far more useful long term than the "slap on the wrist" that a fine and points would have been. Like most, I'd not had any remotely formal training since passing my driving test many years ago.

I'd be inclined to let it go. He's admitted he was in the wrong and, as you say, shown contrition so the incident will hopefully serve as a wake up call. Maybe suggest to the police that they might suggest he voluntarily attends a course. I don't know if you can do such a thing though, it may only be for naughty boys.

From my copper mate:

At least the awareness course will actually happen

if it goes for a criminal charge, then CPS become involved and more often than not drop it due to lack of evidence (often despite witnesses, CCTV and confession) or general incompetence

It's your decision. As well as lacking awareness and driving into you, he did a runner hoping to avoid the consequences.

Does it stay on his record because I do wonder if he might have done something similar before, or do so again.

(edit) I took too long reading and typing

I'd go for the awareness course. He's more likely to be bitter and resentful if it goes to court and he is convicted.
If he goes on the awareness course, then he might actually learn something that will make him a better, safer driver.

Thanks for the thoughts guys, to be clear, pushing for driving without due care conviction is not something I want to happen, I don't think he deserves it and I don't want to go down that route.

To be honest, it's more about the awareness course and letting it go.

Part of me wants to just let it go, I'm happy we resolved it as adults between us, but I also can see the obvious benefit (as long as he learns something!) long term, not just to me but others as well, of him attending the course.

For the record I don't think he did a runner trying to avoid the consequences, I think he drove off not realising what he had done, which supports the lack of awareness quite well!

I'm going to mull it over some more as SSShep raises a good point, I'm not sure how I will feel about making a guy lose a days pay, cough up for a course, and potentially get in trouble with his employer over something I consider resolved throguh adult discussion.

Personally I'd go for the awareness course but also sneak round to his house while he's on it and wee in his shoes

is it down to me if it goes any further at all or is that up the them

Whilst hte decisions on whether or not to prosecute the driver or take other action such as the awareness course are independant from you, but you do have influence, as the victim.

IANAL but as far as I know, the Police will collate the evidence in a report and if they wish to pursue the charge of driving without due care and attention, they pass the report onto the CPS. The CPS then decide if there is sufficient evidence to prosecute the driver and whether or not pursuing the case would be in the public interest. Whilst these decisions are independant of your position, in reality if you aren't willing or are unlikely to go to court to testify then the case would collapse in court; a massive waste of time and resources. So if you say you don't want it to go to court it is very unlikely to unless that have been other recent incidents involving this driver.

If you say you would like the driver to go on an awareness course, that will be collated into the Police report, like a victim personal statement would be used in the court process.

I wouldn't 'just let it go' as the police may not be so keen to take action in the future if they think cyclists don't want incidents followed up.

Seems odd that they are asking you what punishment he should get!

Again I think you are being a bit too nice in worrying about the consequences for him. I think some loss of mooney, time and hassle at work, is quite fair considering the incident and the outcome that is needed: a change in driving behaviour which is best achieved through a well structured course (i've been on one too!). I think this is a very reasonable approach. If this had happened to someone else then how would you feel about the outcome? Remember how close it was to being much more serious.

With things like this I sometimes think it's initially easier to think what [i]could[/i] I do rather than what [i]should[/i] I do? Then consider the outcome from each scenario and see which feels most 'right' to you.

EDIT: That sounds a bit more hippy-dippyish when it's written down than I realised. Stands up, though.

Another vote for the course, it's the middle ground and seems to be the most common sense solution to me.
Doing nothing would be a mistake IMO.

Only you were there/in the situation.

Could it have been bad for you?

If the action resulted in me falling/injury/being knocked off I wouldn't hesitate in the prosecution route.

I'm not a fan of human nature but I feel most people would see it as a way of avoiding insurance going up and just an inconvenience to get through doing the course. Would they learn or just nod through gritted teeth?

If even grazed I'd go the prosecution route. Your guaranteed anyone (good or bad) would watch their future driving then around cyclists as they have documented 'previous form'.

Holding a hand out to someone is great but on the roads you dont and shouldn't get second chances IMO.

The awareness course is a let off.

In general if road penalties were draconian how much safer would it be for us all to use and ride on our roads?

3points for use of mobile device should be 9pts IMO.

I do think his boss needs to know that one of his employees has been driving like an inconsiderate prat / psychopath / something in between. Especially if it was a company vehicle. Saving him from the Wrath Of Boss should not influence you.

hora:

on the speed awareness course I attended there was a range of attitudes from the "I'm only here to avoid the points" to "I don't need to be told how to drive" but by the end everyone was much more positive, even the Jeremy Clarkson type persona.

I was probably in the "avoid the points" category but I felt as if I learnt a lot, mostly the techniques demonstrated are about helping you avoiding breaking the law in future.

Well, I've now had a discussion with the officer, where I've voiced my feelings.

He has basically said that the situation is pretty black and white from their POV, either conviction route or the course (£150 by the way!), so that pretty much takes the letting it go aspect out of the equation.

I told him how I felt and he said he would pass that on to his sergeant for consideration and that he will keep me in the loop as to what is going on but it sounds like they will probably be inviting him to go on the course, although they will see if there are other options, he mentioned restorative justice scheme.

I think this is probably the best outcome, and it seems most of you agreee!

Got to say I am pleasantly surprised at how well the local Police have handled this (Devon and Cornwall), pursuing it, following up in a timely manner, keeping me in the loop etc.

Awareness course, I reckon if you genuinely think that he didn't see you, rather than he thought he could sneak out and misjudged it.

Yep, send him on the awareness course, then in 6 months, when he's forgotten it all/in a rush/distracted, he'll hit someone else. And leave them for dead in the road, again.
Seriously, if you let him have the awareness course, you've been suckered.

Sounds like a positive experience with the Police, which is good to hear. Glad they're taking it seriously and communicating with you well. Keep us updated on outcomes please!

@amedias - sounds like a good discussion and it is great to see it being followed up. Can I suggest that you send an email (or even a letter) to the Chief Constable for the Devon and Cornwall Police with your appreciation including the name of the officer involved. He will get a pat on the back and it will reinforce the point that accidents involving cyclists should be taken seriously.

Yep, send him on the awareness course, then in 6 months, when he's forgotten it all/in a rush/distracted, he'll hit someone else. And leave them for dead in the road, again.
Seriously, if you let him have the awareness course, you've been suckered.

Surely he is more likely to forget some virtual points on a license he never looks at than a day's worth of awareness training?

(and even more likely to forget some letters about a possible prosecution which the CPS dropped before it got to court).

Another vote for the awareness course, plus one for "borrow [b]stoffel[/b]'s neighbour's cat" .

a few years back I ended up in court for driving without due care and attention, I had stopped in a yellow checked box in a traffic jam and ended up blocking a fire engine.

The court offered me 6 points and £160 fine, or £100 road awareness course, I obviously chose the course which I learnt a lot from but still got 3 penalties points.

If you feel he was genuinely remorsfull then send him on the course. if i had taken 6 points and my bigger fine id wouldn't have learnt anything

OP - whilst I endorse the comments on here about the speed awareness course being very thought-provoking and having a long term effect, when I went on mine it was about general driving, very little focus on how to drive around cyclists.

Daft as it may seem, if you're still in contact with the guy, directly or indirectly, encourage him to get on a Bikeability course - usually provided free of charge by the Local Authority and they will sometimes supply a bike if needed.

That will give him a much better perspective on what a cyclist needs from other road users - walking a mile in another man's shoes and all that...

I think an awareness course would be much more useful. The driver will actually improve his driving skills and awareness - and that might be the difference between another accident and not. A conviction doesn't make him a better or safer driver.

There's sometimes a perception that drivers do things because they don't care - I think in the vast majority of cases this isn't the case. It's a lack of training, not a lack of humanity. Training can address that.

As you discussed things with the driver and seemed to agree that you'd settled it amicably at the time, are you able to contact the driver and let him know what is happening?
He will then understand that you aren't pushing for him to be convicted of undue care whilst driving, nor are you pushing for him to pay out for the course. but they are the result of his actions and you wanted him to be aware of things as they progress.

Hopefully he'd take this on board and realise how lucky he is to have these options rather than just being banged up and that it is because of his actions rather than a retaliation by yourself.

(judging by the amount of comments above I await a flaming for passing an opinion)

Can I suggest that you send an email (or even a letter) to the Chief Constable for the Devon and Cornwall Police with your appreciation including the name of the officer involved. He will get a pat on the back and it will reinforce the point that accidents involving cyclists should be taken seriously.

Good idea!

You can also publicly praise a police officer through the CTC Road Justice page.

http://www.roadjustice.org.uk/praise-a-police-officer

Can I suggest that you send an email (or even a letter) to the Chief Constable for the Devon and Cornwall Police with your appreciation including the name of the officer involved. He will get a pat on the back and it will reinforce the point that accidents involving cyclists should be taken seriously.

I will be doing that, and I'm aware of the CTC RJ campaign so will probably do that too.

I work for a local cycling charity run by our local bikeability guys an know them very well so could certainly arrange that, but at this point I'm wary of contacting the guy until I know what's going on and how the Police are going to proceed.

send the bastard down tbh.

Devon & cyclist related news item - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-28106723

One thing not mentioned so far is that going on one of the courses isn't a "do and forget", if you re-offend within three years then you can't be offered the course again and the previous offence (which you weren't punished for) is taken in to consideration. It's a bit like being on probation for three years.

Glad to hear you are having a positive experience with D&C Police it makes a change from the usual abuse we get.

The advice you have received on here seems pretty fair but for what its worth I would strongly recommend the driver awareness course. Although the driver has had a bit of a wake up call, we could all do with giving our driving a some extra thought now and again. The courses are very useful and will look at the whole way he approaches his driving. It will also be relevant to the incident you described and is different to the speed awareness courses many people will go on. It focuses on hazard perception and anticipation. I believe he will also get the chance have some practical experience driving with the instructor. £150 is actually great value for level of instruction he will receive (although he may no appreciate that at the time).

Sorry for the blatant advert but as a fellow D&C officer too often we see the consequences of a moment of madness or even a simple lapse in concentration. Contrary to what the Daily Mail would have you believe we are not all corrupt motorist hating fascists and we would rather just help people improve their driving than hit them with a big stick.

Thanks for posting compass81, the officer I spoke to did say the course would be relevant to the incident and focus on observation/awareness etc. but it's good to hear it from someone else in the know 🙂

Given all the negative press and stories of 'police couddn't be bothered etc etc.' it's nice to have an experience which contradicts this and hopefully re-enforces that the complaints are the exception rather than the norm.

OP. Interesting thread and dilemma.

It depends on your view of the objective - punishment or prevention. there are arguments both ways. Personally I would go for the course option in this case partly as the guy spoke to you and was remorseful (although clearly he could be blagging but trust is a strange thing) and also if this does impact his work he may actually be resentful of cyclists in the future. it's interesting you have chosen this route.

Also what @compass has said, we (as road users be it on bike or car) are capable of making mistakes not least not paying attention from time to time.

Update for those that were interested...

received a letter from the collisions investigator last night saying that they have decided no further action to be taken, as apparently not in the public interest to proceed.

No information as to whether my discussion was a factor in that decision or not.

Does that mean the guy still has to attend the course ?

IT said "no further action" so my guess is no.

The guy who turned across me in May 2013 was initially going to get an awareness course which I agreed to, it was a mistake on his part not a deliberate hurt a cyclist action.

Turned out in the end that he's only just wiped off the points he'd had for driving with due care and based on that and his 6 points for speeding the police took him to court and he got a ban and a fine.

Interestingly the police officer rang me to tell me this even though he wasn't obliged to do so. The police were excellent throughout.

not in the public interest to proceed.

Do we get to vote on that?

Do we get to vote on that?

Awareness courses are available to drivers who admit the offence and agree to go on them. No matter what the OP's opinion is, it is still up to him to take that option. The only input the OP actually had was to agree that he would be happy to let the police make that offer.

So, perhaps a lesson to us all. The driver may have appeared all contrite at the time, but probably took a gamble when faced with the choice of losing a day's pay plus the cost of an awareness course, or a three pointer and less than half that in fines. If my licence was clean I'd opt for the points, especially knowing what I know about the appetite of the CPS to prosecute minimal injury accidents.

Now, Restorative justice is another matter. I might be tempted to suggest he could "walk a mile in my shoes", and join me on a rush hour commute. He may learn to respect bike safety a bit more after ten miles of being buzzed by private hire drivers, buses and other blithe morons.

If the evidence was "word on word" , then the CPS view would be to drop it, if it ever got to the CPS from the Collision Bureau. If the guy knows this and has decent advice, he will choose the court route when given the option. Without independent witnesses or an admission by the driver the case is dead in the water.

FWIW, it wasn't word on word, as I mentioned earlier I had an independent witness who co-operated with me, and the officer who investigated, and the driver also did admit fault.

The letter said it did make it to the CPS but they decided not to proceed as not in public interest.

The police investigated in a timely manner, kept me informed, and I am satisfied that the driver and I sorted things out between us amicably. Overall I am reasonably happy with the outcome, maybe I would be happier if he had gone on the course but I'm not bitter that he hasn't, [i]I believe[/i] that he got the kick he needed and was genuinely remorseful.

Now you raise hell. He has got away with it and there is good chance that all he has is a big smug smile.

My answer was going to be the course, being that the penalty doesn't solve the issue, though discourages doing it again but if he's not sure what he did or failed to do then it doesn't help.

But if he's let off with nothing then that's even worse.

Daft that's it's not in the public interest for a case like this, but dare to do 35 in a 30 and instant fine / offer of a speed awareness course, either way near £100 in their pocket.

brooess - Member
OP - whilst I endorse the comments on here about the speed awareness course being very thought-provoking and having a long term effect, when I went on mine it was about general driving, very little focus on how to drive around cyclists.

Mine made it quite clear it's not about how to get past those pesky cyclists, but about awareness of them in the first place and not being in such a rush, taking more care. Most the incidents aren't on overtaking them anyway but at junctions, and the observation videos pointed this out. They also stressed the "it's fine if bikes are two abreast" and how that's better for overtaking if it's a large group of them. Though there was a lot of anti-bike hate in the group I was in and discussions about cyclists weren't positive.

Not that mine was anything about crashing into cyclists, it was just speed awareness after getting caught speeding down the M4... to get to BPW to go riding 😀